"Can't get any TV" related question
 

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:18:12 -0500 whosbest54 wrote:

| Ideally, yes. But a lot of people will opt for new sets; others will get rid
| of their old ones when they stop working and won't bother with converters.
| I've met a LOT of people who are doing one or both. Where I live you have to
| pay to recycle the set. The old sets will end up being dumped or in garages
| and basements, to be dumped years later. Old TV replacement has always been
| happening to some extent over the last 60 years, but it will happen much more
| now.

And there will be a lot of illegal old set dumping, as well. Congress needs
to set up a program to accept all these old TV sets and send them to Cuba.

FYI: Cuba uses NTSC.

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"Can't get any TV" related question
 

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 11:10:32 -0400 Thumper wrote:
| On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:18:12 -0500, whosbest54
| wrote:
|
|In article ,
|says...
|
|Old TV disposal is an added cost to the consumer and the environment as a
|result of the digital transition.
|
|Why is that? Just get a converter.
|
|Ideally, yes. But a lot of people will opt for new sets; others will get rid
|of their old ones when they stop working and won't bother with converters.
|I've met a LOT of people who are doing one or both. Where I live you have to
|pay to recycle the set. The old sets will end up being dumped or in garages
|and basements, to be dumped years later. Old TV replacement has always been
|happening to some extent over the last 60 years, but it will happen much more
|now.
|
|whosbest54
|
| It's not the government's fault if people decide to junk their tv
| instead of getting a converter.

No, but it is the government's fault that all this change is causing more
people to dump TVs, and in particular, to have to deal with the inconvenience
of tuning their TVs using some newfangled contraption. It's not a total
blame, but it is an area of responsibility. We _will_ have a serious uptick
in illegal dumping, which will end up costing a lot more that funding such a
program to take in these old TVs. A one week long "dump an old TV" amnesty
every 15 months, starting 2009-03 and running through for about 5 years seems
fine to me. Two TVs per person in the first two events, and one per person
thereafter. Paid advertising at the event would be allowed to supplement the
costs (TV sellers and cable/satellite companies might have an interest in it).

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|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, I no longer see any articles originating from |
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"Can't get any TV" related question
 

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:26:06 GMT Wes Newell wrote:

| AFAIK, they don't have to keep analog feeds at all. All they have to do is
| provide a way that the customer can watch TV with their old set. They can
| do that with an STB. The government shouldn't be sticking their nose into
| closed systems like cable.

It's not entirely a closed system. The cable infrastructure was "earned"
through a past guranteed monopoly, back when it was viable for multiple
cable overbuilds (many towns had those), and for slow buildups. These
companies are operating with a kind of "windfall" of being the incumbent
owner of the legacy system, even if they have replaced every single part.

That said, I do agree that it is out of line with the government to tell
the cable companies they cannot switch to 100% digital. I agree that the
obligation to provide a basic level of service (over the air and local
access channels) can be satisfied via a box that outputs at least one
compatible analog output usable by old analog TVs. I believe that 2012
as the cutoff for this is too short. It should be at least 2018.

I'm a full believer in free markets. Free markets require competition to
a sufficient degree that a free choice exists. Even having 2 providers
is not much of a choice. OTOH, the level I think is a free choice (5),
is not a practical level of overbuild.


| Give me a break. There's no reason to get a new TV if you don't want one.
| I switched to all digital about 4 years ago without having a single TV
| with a built in digital tuner. The old TV's work fine behind an ATSC
| receiver. No ones going to throw away a perfectly good TV because of the
| digital transition unless they are idiots.

You want to come pick up mine? It's a perfectly good 32 inch CRT TV that
I plan to replace with one that will display HD. Yeah, the reason for the
replacement is not DTV ... it's HD. Otherwise an STB would be sufficient.
But, I don't want to invest in an STB since I expect to replace the TV with
an HDTV eventually (within three years), so that expedites the desire to
replace it so I don't have to buy an STB that will have no use in a couple
years beyond. As soon as I find the right TV to replace it with, then you
can come pick up the old one.

--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, I no longer see any articles originating from |
| Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by more readers |
| you will need to find a different place to post on Usenet. |
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) |

"Can't get any TV" related question
 

In article , says...


On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:40:42 -0500 whosbest54
wrote:
| In article , says...
|
|
|On 15 Apr 2008 18:03:14 GMT Barbara wrote:
|
|| Sometimes I wish the gov had just issued "recycle" coupons for old
|| analog units, since you have to pay to get rid of them. Eventually
|| we'll have the old TVs *and* the converters to recycle.
|
|That might be worth a letter and telephone call (both) to your 2 senators and
|your district representative (all three). Inform them "after the transition,
|they need to have a program to take all the old dead TVs for free".
|
| This is a real difficult issue and a reason that cable should be made to keep a
| basic analog tier for a longer time than 3 years. The sets can't go to
| landfills because they contain toxic metals like lead.

I don't agree with the requirement to keep a basic analog tier.

I do believe cable companies should provide some analog video connectivity,
and at zero cost for basic service for up to two TVs (e.g. if you subscribe
to the basic tier, you get up to two boxes on loan as part of the basic cost).
If you subscribe to a higher tier, then this obligation would exist for ONE
box and that box won't have to deliver more channels than the basic service
(e.g. to feed your 2nd TV that you only want basic channels on). I also
believe this should be provided out to 2018. If such a box has ONLY RF out,
that would comply with the idea of compatibility for older TVs.

The cable company could provide the compatibility by having analog running
on their cable. But I believe they would be doing a better service to change
the whole distribution to all digital and provide those boxes, provided that
the next requirement is also met:

But what about those who don't want boxes and want to continue to use built in
tuners as well as their VCRs and DVD recorders with NTSC tuners? There are a lot
of people like that; I've met them. I see no reason why the cable companies can't
provide a basic tier of like 20 analog channels for a decade or so. After that, I
can grudgingly agree that they should go all digital.

I also believe the cable companies should provide all over the air TV channels
they carry in their complete form, including PSIP data, NOT encrypted, with all
subchannels intact. So if the over the air station is carried at all, it must
work with a DIGITAL CABLE READY (e.g. QAM) TV, without the need for a cable
company provided box. Local access channels should be provided the same way.
In other words, the basic tier of a cable system that has converted to digital
entirely should work without a box on a digital tuner that is cable ready.
This includes all subchannels of the TV stations that go over the air. They
can make a deal with the same stations to have even more subchannels provided
that are not over the air, and treat them like any other private source of
content. But whatever does go over the air must remain free to access even
if the station delivers it to the cable provider by another means, such as a
fiber optic link (an OC-3 link can deliver what amounts to almost 8 ATSC/8VSB
channels of content).

Agreed.

whosbest54
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"Can't get any TV" related question
 

On 16 Apr 2008 16:45:03 GMT, wrote:

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:40:42 -0500 whosbest54 wrote:
| In article , says...
|
|
|On 15 Apr 2008 18:03:14 GMT Barbara wrote:
|
|| Sometimes I wish the gov had just issued "recycle" coupons for old
|| analog units, since you have to pay to get rid of them. Eventually
|| we'll have the old TVs *and* the converters to recycle.
|
|That might be worth a letter and telephone call (both) to your 2 senators and
|your district representative (all three). Inform them "after the transition,
|they need to have a program to take all the old dead TVs for free".
|
| This is a real difficult issue and a reason that cable should be made to keep a
| basic analog tier for a longer time than 3 years. The sets can't go to
| landfills because they contain toxic metals like lead.

I don't agree with the requirement to keep a basic analog tier.

I do believe cable companies should provide some analog video connectivity,
and at zero cost for basic service for up to two TVs (e.g. if you subscribe
to the basic tier, you get up to two boxes on loan as part of the basic cost).
If you subscribe to a higher tier, then this obligation would exist for ONE
box and that box won't have to deliver more channels than the basic service
(e.g. to feed your 2nd TV that you only want basic channels on). I also
believe this should be provided out to 2018. If such a box has ONLY RF out,
that would comply with the idea of compatibility for older TVs.

The cable company could provide the compatibility by having analog running
on their cable. But I believe they would be doing a better service to change
the whole distribution to all digital and provide those boxes, provided that
the next requirement is also met:

I also believe the cable companies should provide all over the air TV channels
they carry in their complete form, including PSIP data, NOT encrypted, with all
subchannels intact. So if the over the air station is carried at all, it must
work with a DIGITAL CABLE READY (e.g. QAM) TV, without the need for a cable
company provided box. Local access channels should be provided the same way.
In other words, the basic tier of a cable system that has converted to digital
entirely should work without a box on a digital tuner that is cable ready.
This includes all subchannels of the TV stations that go over the air. They
can make a deal with the same stations to have even more subchannels provided
that are not over the air, and treat them like any other private source of
content. But whatever does go over the air must remain free to access even
if the station delivers it to the cable provider by another means, such as a
fiber optic link (an OC-3 link can deliver what amounts to almost 8 ATSC/8VSB
channels of content).


| Old TV disposal is an added cost to the consumer and the environement as a
| result of the digital transition. The government gets the windfall of billions
| auctioning off the vacated spectrum and the consumers get caught with the costs
| of converters, new TVs and disposal of the old ones. Only the converters are
| subsidized at this time.

If we put off the need to phase out old TVs for as long as most old TVs will
continue to function, then at least we can argue that the transition itself
is not the cause of additional disposal demand. I believe my above suggestion
would do that (as well as address other access rights issues).


Do you really think the cable companies should just eat the expense
that your ideas will incur?

Thumper

"Can't get any TV" related question
 

On 16 Apr 2008 16:54:02 GMT, wrote:

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 11:10:32 -0400 Thumper wrote:
| On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:18:12 -0500, whosbest54
| wrote:
|
|In article ,
|says...
|
|Old TV disposal is an added cost to the consumer and the environment as a
|result of the digital transition.
|
|Why is that? Just get a converter.
|
|Ideally, yes. But a lot of people will opt for new sets; others will get rid
|of their old ones when they stop working and won't bother with converters.
|I've met a LOT of people who are doing one or both. Where I live you have to
|pay to recycle the set. The old sets will end up being dumped or in garages
|and basements, to be dumped years later. Old TV replacement has always been
|happening to some extent over the last 60 years, but it will happen much more
|now.
|
|whosbest54
|
| It's not the government's fault if people decide to junk their tv
| instead of getting a converter.

No, but it is the government's fault that all this change is causing more
people to dump TVs, and in particular, to have to deal with the inconvenience
of tuning their TVs using some newfangled contraption. It's not a total
blame, but it is an area of responsibility. We _will_ have a serious uptick
in illegal dumping, which will end up costing a lot more that funding such a
program to take in these old TVs. A one week long "dump an old TV" amnesty
every 15 months, starting 2009-03 and running through for about 5 years seems
fine to me. Two TVs per person in the first two events, and one per person
thereafter. Paid advertising at the event would be allowed to supplement the
costs (TV sellers and cable/satellite companies might have an interest in it).


If you decide to junk your set, you should pay for the recycling.
Thumper

"Can't get any TV" related question
 

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:57:27 -0500, Jer wrote:

Wes Newell wrote:
Give me a break. There's no reason to get a new TV if you don't want
one. I switched to all digital about 4 years ago without having a
single TV with a built in digital tuner. The old TV's work fine behind
an ATSC receiver. No ones going to throw away a perfectly good TV
because of the digital transition unless they are idiots.


Wes, you seem to be forgetting that some people decide to replace a
perfectly good TV simply because the old one uses analog technology, and
the replacement TV uses newer digital technology. A strong benefit of
replacement is improved images and sound. To me, this doesn't seem to
make them idiots, rather it makes them someone who is capable of taking
advantage of an opportunity for something they consider an improvement,
while at the same time, not allowing themselves to accept a government
subsidy expected to keep them trapped in a yesteryear paradigm.

Perhaps you prefer everyone follow the old paradigm by staying with
stone knives and bearskin rugs. According to you, why improve that,
they work. A buggy whip worked, why replace that? A small personal
watercraft fashioned from a fallen tree worked, why replace it? The ax
was useful for obtaining food for the family worked, why replace that?

You might note I said "throw away", not replace. I replaced mine with
HDTV's too, but I didn't throw away the old sets. I gave them to someone
that could use them. And then I bought a converter box for it and gave
them that too. Had you actually read or understood what I said....

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"Can't get any TV" related question
 

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:54:02 -0700, Steve Urbach wrote:

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:26:06 GMT, Wes Newell
wrote:

The government shouldn't be sticking their nose into
closed systems like cable.
But then, how would they (local government) be able to charge the huge
"Franchise" fees they get around here?? How would they mandate what (not
*If*), public access programming?
I manage to avoid the local "Utility users Tax" as it applies to TV
because I don't use Cable or Satellite (taxed along with DSL and
Cellular communications).
Zip 94306

My mistake. I should have specified federal government, although I thought
that was obvious.


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"Can't get any TV" related question
 

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:07:08 +0000, phil-news-nospam wrote:

| Give me a break. There's no reason to get a new TV if you don't want
one. | I switched to all digital about 4 years ago without having a
single TV | with a built in digital tuner. The old TV's work fine behind
an ATSC | receiver. No ones going to throw away a perfectly good TV
because of the | digital transition unless they are idiots.

You want to come pick up mine? It's a perfectly good 32 inch CRT TV
that I plan to replace with one that will display HD. Yeah, the reason
for the replacement is not DTV ... it's HD. Otherwise an STB would be
sufficient. But, I don't want to invest in an STB since I expect to
replace the TV with an HDTV eventually (within three years), so that
expedites the desire to replace it so I don't have to buy an STB that
will have no use in a couple years beyond. As soon as I find the right
TV to replace it with, then you can come pick up the old one.

No, I don't want to come pick up yours. Why not do what I did and find
someone that will be more than happy to get it for free. I even bought a
converter box for them. Or put it out front with a sign that says take me
home I work. It won't be there long. But don't just throw it away. that
was my point, not replacing it. There's no need to fill the landfills with
working TV's when there's lots of people that would be happy to have them.

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"Can't get any TV" related question
 

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 12:17:44 -0500, whosbest54 wrote:

But what about those who don't want boxes and want to continue to use
built in tuners as well as their VCRs and DVD recorders with NTSC
tuners? There are a lot of people like that; I've met them. I see no
reason why the cable companies can't provide a basic tier of like 20
analog channels for a decade or so. After that, I can grudgingly agree
that they should go all digital.

Why should the cable company be restricted to 20 analog channels when they
could get over 100 digital channels, or 20 HD channels plus 40 SD channels
from the same bandwidth the 20 analog channels use up? That's just BS. And
I'm not a cable advocate. I've never had cable or sat and never will, but
that doesn't change the fact that it's impeding on their business. They
should be left alone to doi what they want. If the customers don't like
it, then can go elsewhere for service.

--
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