Within a whisker of failure
 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/apr/03/research.engineering?gusrc=rss&feed=science

Within a whisker of failure
 

"Ivan" wrote in message
...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/apr/03/research.engineering?gusrc=rss&feed=science
Yet another example of how legislators climb onto the environmental
bandwaggon on the basis of poor science. And who pays? We do. The sooner
this environmental craze passes and we can all get back to sanity the
better.

Bill

Within a whisker of failure
 

In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:

"Ivan" wrote in message
...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/apr/03/research.engineering?gusrc=rss&feed=science
Yet another example of how legislators climb onto the environmental
bandwaggon on the basis of poor science. And who pays? We do. The sooner
this environmental craze passes and we can all get back to sanity the
better.

This problem is well known. That is why products for medical or military
use may continue to use solder which contains lead.

--
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11

Within a whisker of failure
 

Not a new problem as has been said. I understand some satellites suffered,
including some avionics boxes on the Shuttle.

By the way, I have no idea what has been done to that page you sent as a
link, but its totally unreadable as English, sounding like excerpts jumbled
together compared with most web sites.

Brian

--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________


"Ivan" wrote in message
...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/apr/03/research.engineering?gusrc=rss&feed=science

Within a whisker of failure
 

In message , charles
writes
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:

"Ivan" wrote in message
...









http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/apr/03/research.engineering?gusrc=rss&feed=science
Yet another example of how legislators climb onto the environmental
bandwaggon on the basis of poor science. And who pays? We do. The sooner
this environmental craze passes and we can all get back to sanity the
better.

This problem is well known. That is why products for medical or military
use may continue to use solder which contains lead.

Yes, we can't have people dying from medical problems or military
action. And we know that the lead will be in responsible hands, and
finally disposed of using an approved procedure.
--
Ian

Within a whisker of failure
 

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...

By the way, I have no idea what has been done to that page you sent as a
link, but its totally unreadable as English, sounding like excerpts
jumbled together compared with most web sites.

Perfectly readable to me.

Within a whisker of failure
 

On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 08:16:38 +0100, charles
wrote:

Yet another example of how legislators climb onto the environmental
bandwaggon on the basis of poor science. And who pays? We do. The sooner
this environmental craze passes and we can all get back to sanity the
better.

This problem is well known. That is why products for medical or military
use may continue to use solder which contains lead.

So it's OK for them to bugger up the environment but not us? What hypocrisy?
And what's the environmental cost of people being forced to throw away
otherwise perfectly functioning gear because of one small problem caused by
this?
It's utter bloody madness.

Within a whisker of failure
 

On Sun, 6 Apr 2008 01:50:10 +0100, "Bill Wright"
wrote:


"Ivan" wrote in message
...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/apr/03/research.engineering?gusrc=rss&feed=science
Yet another example of how legislators climb onto the environmental
bandwaggon on the basis of poor science. And who pays? We do. The sooner
this environmental craze passes and we can all get back to sanity the
better.

Bill Wright for Chief Scientific Adviser! He obviously has a much
better grasp of the issues than the likes of David King and John
Beddington. Sanity here we come...
--
http://www.robinfaichney.org/

Within a whisker of failure
 

"Paul Ratcliffe" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 08:16:38 +0100, charles

wrote:

Yet another example of how legislators climb onto the environmental
bandwaggon on the basis of poor science. And who pays? We do. The sooner
this environmental craze passes and we can all get back to sanity the
better.

This problem is well known. That is why products for medical or military
use may continue to use solder which contains lead.

So it's OK for them to bugger up the environment but not us? What
hypocrisy?
And what's the environmental cost of people being forced to throw away
otherwise perfectly functioning gear because of one small problem caused
by
this?
It's utter bloody madness.

Exactly Paul, but to manufacturers they see this as an absolute bonus,
government inspired premature obsolescence (so we won't hear them
complaining too loudly) in a world which may sooner than later be forced
into facing up to the fact that valuable resources can't be squandered quite
so readily as they have been in the past.

Within a whisker of failure
 

"Albert" wrote in message ...
"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...

By the way, I have no idea what has been done to that page you sent as a
link, but its totally unreadable as English, sounding like excerpts
jumbled together compared with most web sites.

Perfectly readable to me.



and of course lead is already in the substrat, it's where we get it from,
ie lead mines etc.

Within a whisker of failure
 

In article , Paul Ratcliffe
wrote:
On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 08:16:38 +0100, charles
wrote:

Yet another example of how legislators climb onto the environmental
bandwaggon on the basis of poor science. And who pays? We do. The
sooner this environmental craze passes and we can all get back to
sanity the better.

This problem is well known. That is why products for medical or
military use may continue to use solder which contains lead.

So it's OK for them to bugger up the environment but not us?

Does is really "bugger up the environment"? The reason that they are
allowed to continue to use lead is that they both require their equipment
to be reliable.



What hypocrisy? And what's the environmental cost of people being forced
to throw away otherwise perfectly functioning gear because of one small
problem caused by this?

No-one is required to throw anything away and for repairs to existing
equipment you can still used leaded solder.


It's utter bloody madness.

Yes.

--
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11

Within a whisker of failure
 

In article ,
critcher wrote:

"Albert" wrote in message ...
"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...

By the way, I have no idea what has been done to that page you sent as a
link, but its totally unreadable as English, sounding like excerpts
jumbled together compared with most web sites.

Perfectly readable to me.



and of course lead is already in the substrat, it's where we get it
from, ie lead mines etc.

There's even a place in southern Scotland called "Leadhills". ;-)

--
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11

Within a whisker of failure
 

On Sun, 6 Apr 2008 10:52:21 +0100, "critcher"
wrote:

and of course lead is already in the substrat, it's where we get it from,
ie lead mines etc.

That's right. We all know nothing natural can be harmful. It's common
sense!
--
http://www.robinfaichney.org/

Within a whisker of failure
 

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article , Paul Ratcliffe
wrote:
On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 08:16:38 +0100, charles
wrote:



What hypocrisy? And what's the environmental cost of people being forced
to throw away otherwise perfectly functioning gear because of one small
problem caused by this?

No-one is required to throw anything away and for repairs to existing
equipment you can still used leaded solder.


"If they grow far enough to touch another current-carrying location, they'll
cause a short that can wreck the equipment while leaving barely any trace."

"One whisker can carry about 30mA - more than enough to cause havoc in
digital circuits"

I doubt in the above circumstances it would even be worth considering
attempting a repair on a device full of tiny vulnerable components.



It's utter bloody madness.

Yes.

--
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11

Within a whisker of failure
 

charles wrote:

Does is really "bugger up the environment"? The reason that they are
allowed to continue to use lead is that they both require their equipment
to be reliable.

Lead in petrol and paint buggers *us* up; that's the reason for anti-lead
legislation. But this article says that lead solder is not a problem
because it doesn't leach.

I'd like to know if anybody's got a reference for the scientific basis
for the promotion of lead-free solder. I wouldn't be surprised if it
didn't exist at all.

--
Dave Farrance

Within a whisker of failure
 

Albert wrote:
"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...

By the way, I have no idea what has been done to that page you sent as a
link, but its totally unreadable as English, sounding like excerpts
jumbled together compared with most web sites.

Perfectly readable to me.



Yes but how well does your computer read it to you. That's what Brian
was referring to.

Within a whisker of failure
 

In article , Charles wrote:
This problem is well known. *That is why products for medical or
military use may continue to use solder which contains lead.

So it's OK for them to bugger up the environment but not us?

Does is really "bugger up the environment"? *The reason that they are
allowed to continue to use lead is that they both require their equipment
to be reliable.

Of course, the military need to have reliable ways of killing people, but
haven't they already got a much quicker way of using lead to do this...?

Rod.

Within a whisker of failure
 

In message , Ian Jackson
wrote
In message , charles
writes
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:

"Ivan" wrote in message
...











http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/apr/03/research.engineering?gusrc=rss&feed=science
Yet another example of how legislators climb onto the environmental
bandwaggon on the basis of poor science. And who pays? We do. The sooner
this environmental craze passes and we can all get back to sanity the
better.

This problem is well known. That is why products for medical or military
use may continue to use solder which contains lead.

Yes, we can't have people dying from medical problems or military
action. And we know that the lead will be in responsible hands, and
finally disposed of using an approved procedure.

One potential environmental problem could be replaced by another that
has a bigger impact. The use of lead free solder will result in
electrical/electronic products that are less reliable and have a shorter
life-span

--
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com

Within a whisker of failure
 

In message , Roderick
Stewart writes
In article , Charles wrote:
This problem is well known. *That is why products for medical or
military use may continue to use solder which contains lead.

So it's OK for them to bugger up the environment but not us?

Does is really "bugger up the environment"? *The reason that they are
allowed to continue to use lead is that they both require their equipment
to be reliable.

Of course, the military need to have reliable ways of killing people, but
haven't they already got a much quicker way of using lead to do this...?

Rod.

Exactly. It's a well-known fact that a high concentration of lead in a
very short time can be very fatal very quickly.
--
Ian

Within a whisker of failure
 

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article , Paul Ratcliffe
wrote:
On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 08:16:38 +0100, charles
wrote:
No-one is required to throw anything away and for repairs to existing
equipment you can still used leaded solder.

No-one repairs things nowadays. It isn't worth it.

Bill

Within a whisker of failure
 

"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...
In message , Roderick Stewart
writes
In article , Charles wrote:
Exactly. It's a well-known fact that a high concentration of lead in a
very short time can be very fatal very quickly.

It's better to make your bullets out of ice. Then, by the time the body is
found the bullet has melted and no-one knows you shot the traffic warden
from behind the chimney where you were working.

Whoops.

Bill

Within a whisker of failure
 

"Robin Faichney" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 6 Apr 2008 01:50:10 +0100, "Bill Wright"
wrote:

Bill Wright for Chief Scientific Adviser!

Actually I see myself as PM.

Bill

Within a whisker of failure
 

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article , Paul Ratcliffe
wrote:
On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 08:16:38 +0100, charles
wrote:
No-one is required to throw anything away and for repairs to existing
equipment you can still used leaded solder.

No-one repairs things nowadays. It isn't worth it.


There was an interesting article in the the ERT trade magazine a few weeks
ago, it was titled something along the lines of 'From showroom to landfill'
describing how ever increasing numbers of large flat screen tvs were winding
up in landfills after as little as 14 months of use, simply because of the
complete lack of any kind of backup, and even where there was, many
manufacturers were deliberately designing in none-serviceability and pricing
spares at such astronomical prices that repairs would be totally
uneconomic.. There was also the suggestion that the government should
intervene and compel firms to supply service information and spares for up
to six years after manufacturer.

Bill

Within a whisker of failure
 

In message , Bill Wright
writes

"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...
In message , Roderick Stewart
writes
In article , Charles wrote:
Exactly. It's a well-known fact that a high concentration of lead in a
very short time can be very fatal very quickly.

It's better to make your bullets out of ice. Then, by the time the body is
found the bullet has melted and no-one knows you shot the traffic warden
from behind the chimney where you were working.

Whoops.

Bill

Has this been done? I've often wondered if a falling icicle has been
responsible for a death caused by mystery murder weapon.
--
Ian

Within a whisker of failure
 

On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 07:59:38 GMT, "Brian Gaff" wrote:

By the way, I have no idea what has been done to that page you sent as a
link, but its totally unreadable as English, sounding like excerpts jumbled
together compared with most web sites.

Try the printable page Brian:-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...ineering/print


Geo

Within a whisker of failure
 

On Sun, 6 Apr 2008 13:58:38 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message , Bill Wright
writes

It's better to make your bullets out of ice. Then, by the time the body is
found the bullet has melted and no-one knows you shot the traffic warden
from behind the chimney where you were working.

Has this been done? I've often wondered if a falling icicle has been
responsible for a death caused by mystery murder weapon.

Wasn't there a "Tales of the Unexpected" where the police ate the
murder weapon, a frozen leg of lamb?

Within a whisker of failure
 

The message
from Ian Jackson contains these
words:

In message , Roderick
Stewart writes
In article , Charles wrote:
This problem is well known. *That is why products for medical or
military use may continue to use solder which contains lead.

So it's OK for them to bugger up the environment but not us?

Does is really "bugger up the environment"? *The reason that they are
allowed to continue to use lead is that they both require their equipment
to be reliable.

Of course, the military need to have reliable ways of killing people, but
haven't they already got a much quicker way of using lead to do this...?

Rod.

Exactly. It's a well-known fact that a high concentration of lead in a
very short time can be very fatal very quickly.

Especially so when the dosage is applied at mach 1 or faster.

BTW, you have a redundent "very" in that last sentence. :-)

--
Regards, John.

Please remove the "ohggcyht" before replying.
The address has been munged to reject Spam-bots.

Within a whisker of failure
 

On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 14:33:33 +0100, wrote:

On Sun, 6 Apr 2008 13:58:38 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message , Bill Wright
writes

It's better to make your bullets out of ice. Then, by the time the body is
found the bullet has melted and no-one knows you shot the traffic warden
from behind the chimney where you were working.

Has this been done? I've often wondered if a falling icicle has been
responsible for a death caused by mystery murder weapon.

Wasn't there a "Tales of the Unexpected" where the police ate the
murder weapon, a frozen leg of lamb?


"Lamb to the Slaughter"

Not only that the deceased wasa policeman too, killed by his newly
pregnant wife.


--

Tim

I understand very little of what's being discussed
but for some reason it's fascinating.

(Jon Thompson, urs)

Within a whisker of failure
 

The message
from contains these words:

On Sun, 6 Apr 2008 13:58:38 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message , Bill Wright
writes

It's better to make your bullets out of ice. Then, by the time the body is
found the bullet has melted and no-one knows you shot the traffic warden
from behind the chimney where you were working.

Has this been done? I've often wondered if a falling icicle has been
responsible for a death caused by mystery murder weapon.

Wasn't there a "Tales of the Unexpected" where the police ate the
murder weapon, a frozen leg of lamb?

Well, freezing something that is otherwise relatively harmless when
used as a projectile was proven to have potentially fatal consequences
by BR when they loaded the test cannon with a frozen chicken to verify
that the driver's screen on the HST was bird strike proof. They got
rather a shock when they managed to prove the screen wasn't
_frozen_bird_ strike proof!

Of course, when they realised their mistake and thawed the ammunition
out to more accurately simulate a "real life" scenario (it's extremely
unlikely that a high speed vehicle will ever encounter a frozen bird
[1]), they got the hoped for results.

[1] Not impossible, just extremely unlikely. I'm not suggesting that a
certain species of goose, famous for being able to fly at heights in
excess of 30,000 feet, couldn't expire in flight and end up in a frozen
state by the time it dropped to ground level during the winter months
whilst the air temperatures right down to ground level were at or below
freezing. Even assuming a small probabilty of such an event, there still
remain the other two factors of place and time for it to be hit by a
suitably speeding vehicle (whether it be a train or a low flying
aircraft).

--
Regards, John.

Please remove the "ohggcyht" before replying.
The address has been munged to reject Spam-bots.

Within a whisker of failure
 

In message , Johnny B Good
wrote
Well, freezing something that is otherwise relatively harmless when
used as a projectile was proven to have potentially fatal consequences
by BR when they loaded the test cannon with a frozen chicken to verify
that the driver's screen on the HST was bird strike proof. They got
rather a shock when they managed to prove the screen wasn't
_frozen_bird_ strike proof!

Of course, when they realised their mistake and thawed the ammunition
out to more accurately simulate a "real life" scenario (it's extremely
unlikely that a high speed vehicle will ever encounter a frozen bird
[1]), they got the hoped for results.

A brick on a string hanging over the line from a bridge is fairly
normal.

--
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com

Within a whisker of failure
 

Not a great deal of help or any contribution as to why my access software
thought it was in weird format though, that comment. Its like saying, I have
no trouble, must be a mistake.

Brian

--
Brian Gaff -
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Albert" wrote in message ...
"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...

By the way, I have no idea what has been done to that page you sent as a
link, but its totally unreadable as English, sounding like excerpts
jumbled together compared with most web sites.

Perfectly readable to me.

Within a whisker of failure
 

When I recall the early solder baths with no ventilation just in the body of
the factory and think, hang on, why are all these folk still living and not
just vegetables by now?

Brian

--
Brian Gaff -
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!
"critcher" wrote in message
...

"Albert" wrote in message
...
"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...

By the way, I have no idea what has been done to that page you sent as a
link, but its totally unreadable as English, sounding like excerpts
jumbled together compared with most web sites.

Perfectly readable to me.



and of course lead is already in the substrat, it's where we get it from,
ie lead mines etc.

Within a whisker of failure
 

Is not lead the final substance left after atomic decay of Uranium, or was
I reading the wrong comic.

Brian

--
Brian Gaff -
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!
"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
critcher wrote:

"Albert" wrote in message
...
"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...

By the way, I have no idea what has been done to that page you sent as
a
link, but its totally unreadable as English, sounding like excerpts
jumbled together compared with most web sites.

Perfectly readable to me.



and of course lead is already in the substrat, it's where we get it
from, ie lead mines etc.

There's even a place in southern Scotland called "Leadhills". ;-)

--
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11

Within a whisker of failure
 

"Johnny B Good" wrote in message
.. .
The message
from contains these words:
[1] Not impossible, just extremely unlikely. I'm not suggesting that a
certain species of goose, famous for being able to fly at heights in
excess of 30,000 feet, couldn't expire in flight and end up in a frozen
state by the time it dropped to ground level during the winter months
whilst the air temperatures right down to ground level were at or below
freezing.

No, what would happen would be that it would freeze at first, then cook
nicely due to the friction of the air. Pretty dangerous I'd say, because
somemight find it cold and think they could refreeze it.

Bill

Within a whisker of failure
 

"Alan" wrote in message
...
In message , Johnny B Good
wrote

A brick on a string hanging over the line from a bridge is fairly normal.

Bloody stupid train drivers should look where they're going.

Bill

Within a whisker of failure
 

On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 11:19:43 +0100, charles
wrote:

This problem is well known. That is why products for medical or
military use may continue to use solder which contains lead.

So it's OK for them to bugger up the environment but not us?

Does is really "bugger up the environment"?

I've no idea. I suspect not but that is not what we're being told. What is
the reason for using lead free solder otherwise?

The reason that they are allowed to continue to use lead is that they both
require their equipment to be reliable.

And everybody else's equipment can go to hell? Why should ordinary people
have to put up with crap reliability and therefore increased cost?

What hypocrisy? And what's the environmental cost of people being forced
to throw away otherwise perfectly functioning gear because of one small
problem caused by this?

No-one is required to throw anything away

Really? Have you heard of anyone being able to get anything mended recently?
If you think it's a common occurrence, you must be in cloud cuckoo land.
The ever increasing rate at which stuff is made and then junked absolutely
has to stop, but the opposite seems to be happening.

Within a whisker of failure
 

In article ,
Paul Ratcliffe wrote:
On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 11:19:43 +0100, charles
wrote:

This problem is well known. That is why products for medical or
military use may continue to use solder which contains lead.

So it's OK for them to bugger up the environment but not us?

Does is really "bugger up the environment"?

I've no idea. I suspect not but that is not what we're being told. What is
the reason for using lead free solder otherwise?

Politics? Lack of understanding of the processes involved? Health of
workers near lead solder baths?

--
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11

Within a whisker of failure
 

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Paul Ratcliffe wrote:
On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 11:19:43 +0100, charles

wrote:

This problem is well known. That is why products for medical or
military use may continue to use solder which contains lead.

So it's OK for them to bug ger up the environment but not us?

Does is really "bugger up the environment"?

I've no idea. I suspect not but that is not what we're being told. What
is
the reason for using lead free solder otherwise?

Politics? Lack of understanding of the processes involved? Health of
workers near lead solder baths?

Well Charles I was in the trade for 50 years man and boy before I retired,
I'd hate to imagine the amount of solder fumes I have inhaled in confined
spaces over those years, how much asbestos inhaled from blowing out the dust
from electric irons and other pieces of equipment when changing elements as
an apprentice, and also the amount of blue asbestos I must have inhaled from
broken pipe lagging when crawling through ducts in the boiler rooms of early
1960's tower blocks were our (Rediffusion) distribution equipment used to be
housed.
Although it has to be said that I still keep my fingers crossed, as I hear
that these things can catch up with one more than 60 years after the event!

--
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11

Within a whisker of failure
 

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Paul Ratcliffe wrote:
On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 11:19:43 +0100, charles

wrote:

This problem is well known. That is why products for medical
or
military use may continue to use solder which contains lead.

So it's OK for them to bugger up the environment but not us?

Does is really "bugger up the environment"?

I've no idea. I suspect not but that is not what we're being told.
What is
the reason for using lead free solder otherwise?

Politics? Lack of understanding of the processes involved? Health
of
workers near lead solder baths?


Not a problem in modern manufacturing though (people in danger of
breathing in any vapour/dust should be wearing a suitable respirator,
anyone who needs to be that close to the solder bath is still in
danger from scolding should water or some such like fluid enter the
hot bath, never mind the risk of actually coming into contact with the
hot bath.

Within a whisker of failure
 

In article , Ivan
wrote:

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article , Paul Ratcliffe
wrote:
On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 11:19:43 +0100, charles
wrote:

This problem is well known. That is why products for medical or
military use may continue to use solder which contains lead.

So it's OK for them to bug ger up the environment but not us?

Does is really "bugger up the environment"?

I've no idea. I suspect not but that is not what we're being told.
What is the reason for using lead free solder otherwise?

Politics? Lack of understanding of the processes involved? Health of
workers near lead solder baths?

Well Charles I was in the trade for 50 years man and boy before I
retired, I'd hate to imagine the amount of solder fumes I have inhaled
in confined spaces over those years, how much asbestos inhaled from
blowing out the dust from electric irons and other pieces of equipment
when changing elements as an apprentice, and also the amount of blue
asbestos I must have inhaled from broken pipe lagging when crawling
through ducts in the boiler rooms of early 1960's tower blocks were our
(Rediffusion) distribution equipment used to be housed. Although it has
to be said that I still keep my fingers crossed, as I hear that these
things can catch up with one more than 60 years after the event!

I didn't say I believed in these things, I just quoted various possible
reasons. I, too, may be susceptible to the problems you mention.
(Rawlplastic, remember that?)

--
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11