DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or sellinggimmick?
 

I have a 42 plasma, so I was wondering if I should buy a upconversion
DVD player. Will I actually notice the difference or is it just a
selling gimmick. Any samples on the web showing the difference, or
would that not be possible to do, we all have different type of
monitors/ lcd.
Thanks.

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:36:46 -0800 (PST), lbbss
wrote:

I have a 42 plasma, so I was wondering if I should buy a upconversion
DVD player. Will I actually notice the difference or is it just a
selling gimmick. Any samples on the web showing the difference, or
would that not be possible to do, we all have different type of
monitors/ lcd.
Thanks.

This question has been discussed in this forum, ad nauseam. The
simple answer is that it depends on how good the upconverting in the
TV set is. I have never seen a list of the HDTVs for which the Oppo
player noticeably improves the output on standard DVDs. The only
source, I know, that gives ratings of HDTVs on how well it does on
standard DVDs is Consumer Reports, 5 levels, red circle (best).
red-white circle, white circle, white-black circle and all black
circle (worst).

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

On 2008-02-28, lbbss wrote:
Will I actually notice the difference or is it just a
selling gimmick.

Those are not the only two alternatives.

If you are asking will a different DVD player put you into a new realm of
video quality: no. Can there be slight improvements: yes.

I've been very pleased with my Oppo players.

-Bill
--
Sattre Press Tales of War
http://sattre-press.com/ by Lord Dunsany
http://sattre-press.com/tow.html

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

lbbss wrote:

I have a 42 plasma, so I was wondering if I should buy a upconversion
DVD player.

What's the native vertical resolution of your TV? Mine is 768. My
upconverting DVD player can output 480/576, 720, or 1080, so no matter
what, the TV still has to convert the picture to its own native
resolution. I leave the player set to 720, but I really don't see any
difference between the three settings, presumably because of the final
conversion done by the TV.

If the TV's native resolution matched one of the player's output settings,
I presume it would just use the signal as is, and in that case I could
compare the quality of the two converters. But that's not the way it is.
You might have the same sort of situation.

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

In article lbbss writes:
I have a 42 plasma, so I was wondering if I should buy a upconversion
DVD player. Will I actually notice the difference or is it just a
selling gimmick. Any samples on the web showing the difference, or
would that not be possible to do, we all have different type of
monitors/ lcd.
Thanks.


As has been discussed in this very group in the last couple weeks,
it all depends on whether the upconversion is done better in the DVD
player or in the monitor. The balance depends on the specific models
of each.

Alan

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

Bill McClain wrote in
:

On 2008-02-28, lbbss wrote:
Will I actually notice the difference or is it just a
selling gimmick.

Those are not the only two alternatives.

If you are asking will a different DVD player put you into a new realm of
video quality: no. Can there be slight improvements: yes.

I've been very pleased with my Oppo players.

-Bill

I am the biggest fan of Oppo ever. However the Toshiba hd dvd player is
better at upconverting than the oppo. I don't suppose Toshiba will be
making anymore

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

"lbbss" wrote in message
...
I have a 42 plasma, so I was wondering if I should buy a upconversion
DVD player. Will I actually notice the difference or is it just a
selling gimmick. Any samples on the web showing the difference, or
would that not be possible to do, we all have different type of
monitors/ lcd.
Thanks.

Just this past weekend, a friend at work let me borrow a newer upcoversion
DVD player he had so I could compare against my older DVD players. My TV is
a new Samsung 1080p native res unit that upcoverts, but I wanted to compare
per the discussions found on this NG and elsewhere.

I found I could tell no difference whatsoever between the borrowed
upconverting unit and my old players...so I'll not be buying an upconversion
DVD player.

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or sellinggimmick?
 

I can easily tell the difference between a regular component out DVD
and an upconverting player with HDMI.

On Feb 28, 3:41*pm, "deadendDan" wrote:
"lbbss" wrote in message

...

I have a 42 plasma, so I was wondering if I should buy a upconversion
DVD player. * Will I actually notice the difference or is it just a
selling gimmick. * Any samples on the web showing the difference, or
would that not be possible to do, we all have different type of
monitors/ lcd.
Thanks.

Just this past weekend, a friend at work let me borrow a newer upcoversion
DVD player he had so I could compare against my older DVD players. *My TV is
a new Samsung 1080p native res unit that upcoverts, but I wanted to compare
per the discussions found on this NG and elsewhere.

I found I could tell no difference whatsoever between the borrowed
upconverting unit and my old players...so I'll not be buying an upconversion
DVD player.

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or sellinggimmick?
 

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 12:59:50 -0800 (PST), wrote:

I can easily tell the difference between a regular component out DVD
and an upconverting player with HDMI.

On how many different TV models have you tested your ability to
discern a difference?

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

I have a samsung LNT4565 model. Previously I watched dvds on my older
toshiba sh400 (dvd player & free basic tivo) player (component). For
Christmas I got a sony ns77h, around $85 (hdmi). The sony is outstanding.
Could be combination of hdmi and better upconverter, but it is better.



"lbbss" wrote in message
...
I have a 42 plasma, so I was wondering if I should buy a upconversion
DVD player. Will I actually notice the difference or is it just a
selling gimmick. Any samples on the web showing the difference, or
would that not be possible to do, we all have different type of
monitors/ lcd.
Thanks.

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

In article writes:
I can easily tell the difference between a regular component out DVD
and an upconverting player with HDMI.

This may only prove that the upconversion in your display is not
as good as some others.

Alan

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or sellinggimmick?
 

One. The one I watch. 1080 into 1080 will look better than 480 into
1080
On Feb 28, 5:16*pm, Sam wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 12:59:50 -0800 (PST), wrote:
I can easily tell the difference between a regular component out DVD
and an upconverting player with HDMI.

On how many different TV models have you tested your ability to
discern a difference?

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or sellinggimmick?
 

Huh? Tv only displays the signal sent into it. That's why s video
Dish looks like crap compared to OTA HD. The signal needs to be
maximized BEFORE going to TV. Upconversion is great. I see no need
to buy bluray for a long long time as picture is comparable


On Feb 29, 3:53*am, (Alan) wrote:
In article writes:

I can easily tell the difference between a regular component out DVD
and an upconverting player with HDMI.

* This may only prove that the upconversion in your display is not
as good as some others.

* * * * Alan

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or sellinggimmick?
 

On Feb 29, 5:03*am, wrote:
Huh? *Tv only displays the signal sent into it. *That's why s video
Dish looks like crap compared to OTA HD. *The signal needs to be
maximized BEFORE going to TV. *Upconversion is great. *I see no need
to buy bluray for a long long time as picture is comparable

...
With the possible exception of the rapidly disappearing CRT HDTVs, all
digital TVs must convert any accepted input to the TVs native
resolution. Depending on the native resolution of the TV and the
incoming signal, the conversion could involve up conversion or down
conversion. Since all HDTVs have resolutions that exceed DVD
resolution, all HDTVs must up convert the output of standard DVD
players and any other SD sources.

I suspect that "s video Dish looks like crap compared to OTA HD"
because one is relatively highly compressed SD fed to the TV via an
analog SD-only s video connection, while the other is relatively
lightly compressed HD. The degree of "crapiness" depends on the
amount of compression in the Dish feed and the ability of the TV to
upconvert an analog SD signal.

I realize that some HDTVs have a "1:1" setting that displays inputs
without scaling (at least in theory). Using the "1:1" setting can be
quite enlightening. That "s video" signal will be just a small
rectangle in the center of a big black screen.

So, if "upconversion is great" for you, then (probably) you have a
good external upconverter and your TV's native upconverting is
relatively poor. In a case like yours, external upconverting makes
good sense. However, a real HD source, such as a Blu-Ray disk, should
always look better than the equivalent upconverted SD source; there is
simply more detail to display. How much of the extra detail you can
see depends on the quality of your TV, how large the TV is, and how
far you sit from the TV (and how good your eyes are).

Whether or not you want to pay for the added detail, as always,
remains your perogative. Some are willing to pony up the dollars
today. Some will wait for tomorrow. And some may never find it
necessary.

Enjoy,

Dan (Woj...)

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 03:00:34 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Feb 28, 5:16*pm, Sam wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 12:59:50 -0800 (PST), wrote:
I can easily tell the difference between a regular component out DVD
and an upconverting player with HDMI.

On how many different TV models have you tested your ability to
discern a difference?

One. The one I watch. 1080 into 1080 will look better than 480 into
1080

This is not valid as a general statement, when you anyway only have a
"480 source" to begin with. Upsampling can be done with varying
quality and depending also on the type of material. You might also
have the same type of circuits built into the TV as the upsampling DVD
player has.

The drawback with external upscaling is that many TV sets crops the
picture somewhat anyway and scales the signal one more time.
Even with sets that can display an incoming native resolution pixel
for pixel, many sources don't provide undisturbed picture content
right up to the edge. For that reason it might be better to transfer
the "material native signal" to the TV, than scale twice.

But of course you should use the combination that gives the best
results, but it is not given that an external upscaler gives the best
result.
/Jan

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or sellinggimmick?
 

What are you talking about? The TV only displays the signal sent to
it. When I press the "info" button it shows the input resolution.
With dish and s video it shows 480 with component dvd it says 480.
With OTA its 720p or 1080i. The upconconvert dvd shows 1080 or 720.
This is a plasma hdtv. There is no "automatic" conversion on any hdtv
I've seen and used- Hitachi, Sony, Panasonic- they show what goes in
and that's it!

On Feb 29, 12:58*pm, dmaster wrote:
On Feb 29, 5:03*am, wrote: Huh? *Tv only displays the signal sent into it. *That's why s video
Dish looks like crap compared to OTA HD. *The signal needs to be
maximized BEFORE going to TV. *Upconversion is great. *I see no need
to buy bluray for a long long time as picture is comparable

...
With the possible exception of the rapidly disappearing CRT HDTVs, all
digital TVs must convert any accepted input to the TVs native
resolution. *Depending on the native resolution of the TV and the
incoming signal, the conversion could involve up conversion or down
conversion. *Since all HDTVs have resolutions that exceed DVD
resolution, all HDTVs must up convert the output of standard DVD
players and any other SD sources.

I suspect that "s video Dish looks like crap compared to OTA HD"
because one is relatively highly compressed SD fed to the TV via an
analog SD-only s video connection, while the other is relatively
lightly compressed HD. *The degree of "crapiness" depends on the
amount of compression in the Dish feed and the ability of the TV to
upconvert an analog SD signal.

I realize that some HDTVs have a "1:1" setting that displays inputs
without scaling (at least in theory). *Using the "1:1" setting can be
quite enlightening. *That "s video" signal will be just a small
rectangle in the center of a big black screen.

So, if "upconversion is great" for you, then (probably) you have a
good external upconverter and your TV's native upconverting is
relatively poor. *In a case like yours, external upconverting makes
good sense. *However, a real HD source, such as a Blu-Ray disk, should
always look better than the equivalent upconverted SD source; there is
simply more detail to display. *How much of the extra detail you can
see depends on the quality of your TV, how large the TV is, and how
far you sit from the TV (and how good your eyes are).

Whether or not you want to pay for the added detail, as always,
remains your perogative. *Some are willing to pony up the dollars
today. *Some will wait for tomorrow. *And some may never find it
necessary.

Enjoy,

Dan (Woj...)

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 12:44:09 -0800 (PST), wrote:

What are you talking about? The TV only displays the signal sent to
it. When I press the "info" button it shows the input resolution.
With dish and s video it shows 480 with component dvd it says 480.
With OTA its 720p or 1080i. The upconconvert dvd shows 1080 or 720.
This is a plasma hdtv. There is no "automatic" conversion on any hdtv
I've seen and used- Hitachi, Sony, Panasonic- they show what goes in
and that's it!

No, your TV displays the information what type of input signal it
receives, but your plasma display has a fixed number of physical
pixels.

It scales the incoming picture to fill those pixels. Exactly how it
does this scaling varies with the TV model (and scaling circuits) but
it is never a simple repeat of input pixels. So the scaling performed
by your DVD player is of the same principle the TV does, but since the
algorithms might be different the resulting quality also varies.
/Jan

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or sellinggimmick?
 

Yes but there is no automatic upconversion as one poster stated. Of
course the tv creates a picture based on input but a 480 picture is
stil 480 despite the pixels used,


On Feb 29, 4:36*pm, Jan B wrote:
On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 12:44:09 -0800 (PST), wrote:
What are you talking about? *The TV only displays the signal sent to
it. *When I press the "info" button it shows the input resolution.
With dish and s video it shows 480 *with component dvd it says 480.
With OTA its 720p or 1080i. *The upconconvert dvd shows 1080 or 720.
This is a plasma hdtv. *There is no "automatic" conversion on any hdtv
I've seen and used- Hitachi, Sony, Panasonic- they show what goes in
and that's it!

No, your TV displays the information what type of input signal it
receives, but your plasma display has a fixed number of physical
pixels.

It scales the incoming picture to fill those pixels. Exactly how it
does this scaling varies with the TV model (and scaling circuits) but
it is never a simple repeat of input pixels. So the scaling performed
by your DVD player is of the same principle the TV does, but since the
algorithms might be different the resulting quality also varies.
/Jan

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

In article writes:
What are you talking about? The TV only displays the signal sent to
it. When I press the "info" button it shows the input resolution.
With dish and s video it shows 480 with component dvd it says 480.
With OTA its 720p or 1080i. The upconconvert dvd shows 1080 or 720.
This is a plasma hdtv. There is no "automatic" conversion on any hdtv
I've seen and used- Hitachi, Sony, Panasonic- they show what goes in
and that's it!

You clearly do not understand.

The signal on DVD is 480i. You can watch it by:

+----------------+
+----------------+ | |
| upconverting | | HD TV set |
| DVD Player |----1080 signal----| |
+----------------+ +----------------+
Set shows 1080, because that
is what it was fed.

or


+----------------+
+----------------+ | |
| standard | | HD TV set |
| DVD Player |----480i signal----| |
+----------------+ +----------------+
Set shows 480, because that
is what it was fed.


In the first case the upconversion from 480 was done in the
DVD player, in the second case, the upconversion was done in the
TV.

In *BOTH* cases the orignal signal is 480i, because that is what is
on he DVD.


The plasma set has a fixed number of pixels on the screen. If the
signal sent doesn't match, it silently converts it to match -- automatically.

Alan

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 06:34:22 +0000 (UTC),
(Alan) wrote:

In article writes:
What are you talking about? The TV only displays the signal sent to
it. When I press the "info" button it shows the input resolution.
With dish and s video it shows 480 with component dvd it says 480.
With OTA its 720p or 1080i. The upconconvert dvd shows 1080 or 720.
This is a plasma hdtv. There is no "automatic" conversion on any hdtv
I've seen and used- Hitachi, Sony, Panasonic- they show what goes in
and that's it!

You clearly do not understand.

The signal on DVD is 480i. You can watch it by:

+----------------+
+----------------+ | |
| upconverting | | HD TV set |
| DVD Player |----1080 signal----| |
+----------------+ +----------------+
Set shows 1080, because that
is what it was fed.

or


+----------------+
+----------------+ | |
| standard | | HD TV set |
| DVD Player |----480i signal----| |
+----------------+ +----------------+
Set shows 480, because that
is what it was fed.


In the first case the upconversion from 480 was done in the
DVD player, in the second case, the upconversion was done in the
TV.

In *BOTH* cases the orignal signal is 480i, because that is what is
on he DVD.


The plasma set has a fixed number of pixels on the screen. If the
signal sent doesn't match, it silently converts it to match -- automatically.

Alan

And we can clearify that:
* The wording "show" in this context refers only to the information
text displayed on (some) TV:s.
* The wording "upconversion" only means that more pixels are
calculated from the available pixels (plus a possible
interlaced-progressive conversion using motion adaptive/tracking
filterring). Where this is done does not change the principles, but
the algorithms varies between different models (both external and
internal).

Like I said; Use the combination that performs the best but it is not
given that scaling already in the DVD-player will give the best
result.
/Jan

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or sellinggimmick?
 

lbbss wrote:
I have a 42 plasma, so I was wondering if I should buy a upconversion
DVD player. Will I actually notice the difference or is it just a
selling gimmick.

Chances are you will notice a difference. Whether or not that
difference is really better and worth spending money on is anyone's
guess. Welcome to the HD/SD-dvd roulette wheel (see below).


Any samples on the web showing the difference, or
would that not be possible to do, we all have different type of
monitors/ lcd.
Thanks.

We all have different monitors and dvd players, but you seem interested
in just getting a "feel" for the kind of effect upconversion can produce
given a standard 480i dvd source.

The only setup I saw trying to show this difference was at my local Best
Buy. They had a hdtv showing a split-screen movie. One side was
upconverted, the other was not. The upconverted side (of the same
movie) had a bland smoothness to it. "Sky Captain and the World of
Tomorrow" captures this effect rather nicely.

- = - = -

I recently purchased a 40" LCD hdtv. I also have 4 standard DVD
players. Over the course of several days, I hooked up various players
and tried different settings.

Up to that point, my reference standard for dvd playback was my big
analog CRT tv set. I also have HD movies on my PC which I can view on
the 40" LCD TV, and 1080i cable shows to compare against.

I discovered an amazing synergy between my Pioneer DVD player and the
HDTV. Standard DVD playback looks really good using this combination of
hardware (the Pioneer is set for 480-progressive output).

No upconversion necessary for me at this point if it involves an outlay
of money. Given a chance to use a freebie test of upconversion, I am
interested. Anyone?

winf

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

wrote in message
...
What are you talking about? The TV only displays the signal sent to
it. When I press the "info" button it shows the input resolution.
With dish and s video it shows 480 with component dvd it says 480.
With OTA its 720p or 1080i. The upconconvert dvd shows 1080 or 720.
This is a plasma hdtv. There is no "automatic" conversion on any hdtv
I've seen and used- Hitachi, Sony, Panasonic- they show what goes in
and that's it!



so explain how a 480 resolution tv broadcast or dvd manages to fill your tv
that is a higher resolution?
why doesnt it sit in the middle of your screen surrounded by all that spare
unused resoulution.

the answer is of course that you are wrong.
and when you are wrong, no ammount of arguing will magically transform you
to being right,.


--
Gareth.

That fly... is your magic wand.

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or sellinggimmick?
 

Idiot- I'm talking quality not quantity. The 480 "fills" the screen
but it's not as clear as 1080. The whole discussion was about
upconversion DVD players and quality- not size. Try a comprehension
class.


On Mar 1, 4:26*pm, "the dog from that film you saw"
wrote:
wrote in message

...
What are you talking about? *The TV only displays the signal sent to
it. *When I press the "info" button it shows the input resolution.
With dish and s video it shows 480 *with component dvd it says 480.
With OTA its 720p or 1080i. *The upconconvert dvd shows 1080 or 720.
This is a plasma hdtv. *There is no "automatic" conversion on any hdtv
I've seen and used- Hitachi, Sony, Panasonic- they show what goes in
and that's it!

so explain how a 480 resolution tv broadcast or dvd manages to fill your tv
that is a higher resolution?
why doesnt it sit in the middle of your screen surrounded by all that spare
unused resoulution.

the answer is of course that you are wrong.
and when you are wrong, no ammount of arguing will magically transform you
to being right,.

--
Gareth.

That fly... is your magic wand.

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

wrote in message
...
Idiot- I'm talking quality not quantity. The 480 "fills" the screen
but it's not as clear as 1080. The whole discussion was about
upconversion DVD players and quality- not size. Try a comprehension
class.




still wrong.
what magic do you actually think your upscaling dvd player is doing? - those
discs only have so much picture info on them - your player may upscale them
but it's not adding any extra info - its just scaling - which is what
your tv does anyway.


--
Gareth.

That fly... is your magic wand.

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

On Sat, 01 Mar 2008 10:28:56 -0700, Winfield
wrote:

lbbss wrote:
I have a 42 plasma, so I was wondering if I should buy a upconversion
DVD player. Will I actually notice the difference or is it just a
selling gimmick.

Chances are you will notice a difference. Whether or not that
difference is really better and worth spending money on is anyone's
guess. Welcome to the HD/SD-dvd roulette wheel (see below).


Any samples on the web showing the difference, or
would that not be possible to do, we all have different type of
monitors/ lcd.
Thanks.

We all have different monitors and dvd players, but you seem interested
in just getting a "feel" for the kind of effect upconversion can produce
given a standard 480i dvd source.

The only setup I saw trying to show this difference was at my local Best
Buy. They had a hdtv showing a split-screen movie. One side was
upconverted, the other was not. The upconverted side (of the same
movie) had a bland smoothness to it. "Sky Captain and the World of
Tomorrow" captures this effect rather nicely.

It sounds like you are describing one of those demonstrations that aim
to show the increased clarity with HD vs SD. The original source is in
high resolution.
This does not show what difference an external upscaling (in the DVD
player) would give on DVD material comparing to let the TV do the
upscaling.
Differences from these two scenarios can not be desplayed on a split
screen. You need two identical TV:s (to show it side by side).
/Jan

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

wrote in message
...
Wrong buddy- Thr conventional dvd player is only sending 480 to tv.
The upconverted is sending 1080. Which has more detail- the 1080 of
course. We're not talking "scaling" there is a noticeable increase
in picture quality



if the dvd is only storing 480 lines of info how do you think the dvd player
is turning that into 1080 ? - where exactly is this 'extra detail' coming
from?



--
Gareth.

That fly... is your magic wand.

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or sellinggimmick?
 

Wrong buddy- Thr conventional dvd player is only sending 480 to tv.
The upconverted is sending 1080. Which has more detail- the 1080 of
course. We're not talking "scaling" there is a noticeable increase
in picture quality

On Mar 2, 3:32*am, "the dog from that film you saw"
wrote:
wrote in message

...
Idiot- I'm talking quality not quantity. * The 480 "fills" the screen
but it's not as clear as 1080. *The whole discussion was about
upconversion DVD players and quality- not size. *Try a comprehension
class.

still wrong.
what magic do you actually think your upscaling dvd player is doing? - those
discs only have so much picture info on them - your player may upscale them
but it's not adding any extra info *- its just scaling * - which is what
your tv does anyway.

--
Gareth.

That fly... is your magic wand.

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or sellinggimmick?
 

the dog from that film you saw wrote:
wrote in message
...
Wrong buddy- Thr conventional dvd player is only sending 480 to tv.
The upconverted is sending 1080. Which has more detail- the 1080 of
course. We're not talking "scaling" there is a noticeable increase
in picture quality



if the dvd is only storing 480 lines of info how do you think the dvd player
is turning that into 1080 ? - where exactly is this 'extra detail' coming
from?





It's coming from interpolating the adjacent pixel information, and using
that to fill things in. This is clearly explained in a number of places.

Google for "pixel interpolation upconvert" and learn grasshopper.

--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

"Jer" wrote in message
...
the dog from that film you saw wrote:
wrote in message
...
Wrong buddy- Thr conventional dvd player is only sending 480 to tv.
The upconverted is sending 1080. Which has more detail- the 1080 of
course. We're not talking "scaling" there is a noticeable increase
in picture quality



if the dvd is only storing 480 lines of info how do you think the dvd
player is turning that into 1080 ? - where exactly is this 'extra detail'
coming from?





It's coming from interpolating the adjacent pixel information, and using
that to fill things in. This is clearly explained in a number of places.

Google for "pixel interpolation upconvert" and learn grasshopper.



the end result though is there's no extra picture info - which is what the
original poster was claiming.



--
Gareth.

That fly... is your magic wand.

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or sellinggimmick?
 

the dog from that film you saw wrote:
wrote in message
...
Wrong buddy- Thr conventional dvd player is only sending 480 to tv.
The upconverted is sending 1080. Which has more detail- the 1080 of
course. We're not talking "scaling" there is a noticeable increase
in picture quality



if the dvd is only storing 480 lines of info how do you think the dvd player
is turning that into 1080 ? - where exactly is this 'extra detail' coming
from?


There is no "extra detail" added. We're getting into semantics here,
but claiming interpolation adds detail raises the pucker factor in me.

However, this link explains a benefit to having the DVD player do the
upconversion instead of the HDTV set.

http://askville.amazon.com/upconvert...uestId=5434097

[quote]

Here’s why upconverting is better than letting your TV do it: a standard
DVD stores a digital file, compressed, but it knows what color every
pixel should be in every frame. Therefore, you want to keep that data
digital if you can. I’m simplifying a bit in the following.

With a standard DVD player outputting an analog signal, you’re taking
the pixel data and converting it to an analog signal on a composite,
s-video, or component cable. Your HDTV then reads the analog signal from
its analog inputs, digitizes it (assigning chunks of the continuously
varying signal to pixels), and then applies its own upconversion
circuitry to "fill in" pixels to go from 480i to the native resolution
of the display (that is, the number of pixels your TV has).
[end quote]

- Winfield

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or sellinggimmick?
 

Jan B wrote:
On Sat, 01 Mar 2008 10:28:56 -0700, Winfield
wrote:

lbbss wrote:
I have a 42 plasma, so I was wondering if I should buy a upconversion
DVD player. Will I actually notice the difference or is it just a
selling gimmick.
Chances are you will notice a difference. Whether or not that
difference is really better and worth spending money on is anyone's
guess. Welcome to the HD/SD-dvd roulette wheel (see below).


Any samples on the web showing the difference, or
would that not be possible to do, we all have different type of
monitors/ lcd.
Thanks.
We all have different monitors and dvd players, but you seem interested
in just getting a "feel" for the kind of effect upconversion can produce
given a standard 480i dvd source.

The only setup I saw trying to show this difference was at my local Best
Buy. They had a hdtv showing a split-screen movie. One side was
upconverted, the other was not. The upconverted side (of the same
movie) had a bland smoothness to it. "Sky Captain and the World of
Tomorrow" captures this effect rather nicely.

It sounds like you are describing one of those demonstrations that aim
to show the increased clarity with HD vs SD. The original source is in
high resolution.
This does not show what difference an external upscaling (in the DVD
player) would give on DVD material comparing to let the TV do the
upscaling.
Differences from these two scenarios can not be desplayed on a split
screen. You need two identical TV:s (to show it side by side).
/Jan


I'm in agreement with you Jan. I thought about this after posting my
message and realized it's impossible to have a split-screen demo with
true upconversion on one side and 480i/hdtv processing on the other.

However, this demo was not HD vs SD. It was a demonstration trying to
show benefits of doing upconversion on the DVD player side.

winf

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or sellinggimmick?
 

the dog from that film you saw wrote:
"Jer" wrote in message
...
the dog from that film you saw wrote:
wrote in message
...
Wrong buddy- Thr conventional dvd player is only sending 480 to tv.
The upconverted is sending 1080. Which has more detail- the 1080 of
course. We're not talking "scaling" there is a noticeable increase
in picture quality



if the dvd is only storing 480 lines of info how do you think the dvd
player is turning that into 1080 ? - where exactly is this 'extra detail'
coming from?




It's coming from interpolating the adjacent pixel information, and using
that to fill things in. This is clearly explained in a number of places.

Google for "pixel interpolation upconvert" and learn grasshopper.



the end result though is there's no extra picture info - which is what the
original poster was claiming.





That's not how I understand it. Additional new pixels are inserted into
the bit stream for each frame, "interpolated" from the adjacent pixels
in the original bit stream. An upconverted 1080 signal contains more
data than an original 480 signal, so it sounds to me like additional
data is being added from somewhere.

--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 13:43:50 -0600, Jer wrote:

the dog from that film you saw wrote:
"Jer" wrote in message
...
the dog from that film you saw wrote:
wrote in message
...
Wrong buddy- Thr conventional dvd player is only sending 480 to tv.
The upconverted is sending 1080. Which has more detail- the 1080 of
course. We're not talking "scaling" there is a noticeable increase
in picture quality

{someone else clearified, altough the quating is messed up}

if the dvd is only storing 480 lines of info how do you think the dvd
player is turning that into 1080 ? - where exactly is this 'extra detail'
coming from?


It's coming from interpolating the adjacent pixel information, and using
that to fill things in. This is clearly explained in a number of places.

Google for "pixel interpolation upconvert" and learn grasshopper.


the end result though is there's no extra picture info - which is what the
original poster was claiming.


That's not how I understand it. Additional new pixels are inserted into
the bit stream for each frame, "interpolated" from the adjacent pixels
in the original bit stream. An upconverted 1080 signal contains more
data than an original 480 signal, so it sounds to me like additional
data is being added from somewhere.

More pixels are created. The upsampling (to smaller pixels) can be
done differently in different units and give better or worse results
and allow a closer viewing distance with less stair casing in edges
etc. (but of course it can not really create details from nowhere).

However, the argument was about the fact that this is also performed
by an HDTV when fed the original DVD data. No difference IN PRINCIPLE
when performed in the DVD player. (Well field sequence information
from the disc could make a difference, but I hear that such info is
often wrong anyway.) See also older posts about scaling twice ...
/Jan

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 10:16:30 -0700, Winfield
wrote:

[quote]

Here’s why upconverting is better than letting your TV do it: a standard
DVD stores a digital file, compressed, but it knows what color every
pixel should be in every frame. Therefore, you want to keep that data
digital if you can. I’m simplifying a bit in the following.

With a standard DVD player outputting an analog signal, you’re taking
the pixel data and converting it to an analog signal on a composite,
s-video, or component cable. Your HDTV then reads the analog signal from
its analog inputs, digitizes it (assigning chunks of the continuously
varying signal to pixels), and then applies its own upconversion
circuitry to "fill in" pixels to go from 480i to the native resolution
of the display (that is, the number of pixels your TV has).
[end quote]

I've seen this type of argument, over and over, for both audio and
video, but it doesn't prove that in practice, most people can honestly
tell the difference. Here is a reasonable way to find out.

These are the large TVs (and I assume the difference will be most
noticeable for larger screens) that Consumer Reports gives the highest
rating for picture quality derived from the 480p output from a
progressive scan DVD player attached to the component video inputs of
the TV. Has anybody tested any of these TVs with both a DVD player,
like the one Consumer Reports used, and one of the best upconverting
players?

LCDs: Sony KDL-52XBR4, Sharp LC-52D64U, Samsung LN-T5281F
Plasmas: Panasonic TH58P2750U, LG 60PY3D

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

In article writes:
Wrong buddy- Thr conventional dvd player is only sending 480 to tv.
The upconverted is sending 1080. Which has more detail- the 1080 of
course. We're not talking "scaling" there is a noticeable increase
in picture quality

Well, no it doesn't have more detail.

The image on the DVD is 480, and that is all there is. You can compute
interpolated values for intermediate lines, but that doesn't add detail, it
just fills in probable values in between the data in the lines.

You can do this calculation in the DVD player, or in the TV set.

Alan

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

In article Jer writes:
g2000hsw.googlegroups.com
In-Reply-To:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Complaints-To:
Lines: 43
Xref: shelby.stanford.edu alt.tv.tech.hdtv:174043

the dog from that film you saw wrote:
"Jer" wrote in message
...
the dog from that film you saw wrote:

if the dvd is only storing 480 lines of info how do you think the dvd
player is turning that into 1080 ? - where exactly is this 'extra detail'
coming from?




It's coming from interpolating the adjacent pixel information, and using
that to fill things in. This is clearly explained in a number of places.

Google for "pixel interpolation upconvert" and learn grasshopper.



the end result though is there's no extra picture info - which is what the
original poster was claiming.





That's not how I understand it. Additional new pixels are inserted into
the bit stream for each frame, "interpolated" from the adjacent pixels
in the original bit stream. An upconverted 1080 signal contains more
data than an original 480 signal, so it sounds to me like additional
data is being added from somewhere.

It may be more data, but it is not more *information*.

The question was is it better to do this in the DVD player, or in the
TV set.

Alan

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

In article Sam writes:

I've seen this type of argument, over and over, for both audio and
video, but it doesn't prove that in practice, most people can honestly
tell the difference. Here is a reasonable way to find out.

These are the large TVs (and I assume the difference will be most
noticeable for larger screens) that Consumer Reports gives the highest
rating for picture quality derived from the 480p output from a
progressive scan DVD player attached to the component video inputs of
the TV. Has anybody tested any of these TVs with both a DVD player,
like the one Consumer Reports used, and one of the best upconverting
players?

LCDs: Sony KDL-52XBR4, Sharp LC-52D64U, Samsung LN-T5281F
Plasmas: Panasonic TH58P2750U, LG 60PY3D

Yes. However I used an old Panasonic player with 480i output, and
a Toshiba with 1080i output.

The pictures are slightly different, but it is difficult to say which
is better most of the time.

Alan

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or sellinggimmick?
 

Alan wrote:
In article Jer writes:
g2000hsw.googlegroups.com
In-Reply-To:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Complaints-To:
Lines: 43
Xref: shelby.stanford.edu alt.tv.tech.hdtv:174043

the dog from that film you saw wrote:
"Jer" wrote in message
...
the dog from that film you saw wrote:

if the dvd is only storing 480 lines of info how do you think the dvd
player is turning that into 1080 ? - where exactly is this 'extra detail'
coming from?



It's coming from interpolating the adjacent pixel information, and using
that to fill things in. This is clearly explained in a number of places.

Google for "pixel interpolation upconvert" and learn grasshopper.


the end result though is there's no extra picture info - which is what the
original poster was claiming.




That's not how I understand it. Additional new pixels are inserted into
the bit stream for each frame, "interpolated" from the adjacent pixels
in the original bit stream. An upconverted 1080 signal contains more
data than an original 480 signal, so it sounds to me like additional
data is being added from somewhere.

It may be more data, but it is not more *information*.

The question was is it better to do this in the DVD player, or in the
TV set.

Alan


Would a 480 native image look the same as a 480 upconverted image on the
same TV?

--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

DVD Upconversion:Noticeable difference in picture? or selling gimmick?
 

On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 10:16:30 -0700, Winfield
wrote:

the dog from that film you saw wrote:
wrote in message
...
Wrong buddy- Thr conventional dvd player is only sending 480 to tv.
The upconverted is sending 1080. Which has more detail- the 1080 of
course. We're not talking "scaling" there is a noticeable increase
in picture quality



if the dvd is only storing 480 lines of info how do you think the dvd player
is turning that into 1080 ? - where exactly is this 'extra detail' coming
from?


There is no "extra detail" added. We're getting into semantics here,
but claiming interpolation adds detail raises the pucker factor in me.

However, this link explains a benefit to having the DVD player do the
upconversion instead of the HDTV set.

http://askville.amazon.com/upconvert...uestId=5434097

[quote]

Here’s why upconverting is better than letting your TV do it: a standard
DVD stores a digital file, compressed, but it knows what color every
pixel should be in every frame. Therefore, you want to keep that data
digital if you can. I’m simplifying a bit in the following.

With a standard DVD player outputting an analog signal, you’re taking
the pixel data and converting it to an analog signal on a composite,
s-video, or component cable. Your HDTV then reads the analog signal from
its analog inputs, digitizes it (assigning chunks of the continuously
varying signal to pixels), and then applies its own upconversion
circuitry to "fill in" pixels to go from 480i to the native resolution
of the display (that is, the number of pixels your TV has).
[end quote]

- Winfield


The FACT is that it looks just as good letting my tv do it.
Thumper