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Pixel policy
"David Hearn" wrote in message ... charles wrote: In article , David Hearn wrote: Never heard of a universal 30 day cooling off period (nor actually the Trading Standards Act before). Can you provide more details? to the beat of my knowledge that only applies to mail order purchases, not over the counter ones. That would be the Distance Selling Regulations then, which is 7 working days, not 30. And as you say - distance purchases only. The Consumer Credit Act gives you 30 days to cancel a credit agreement so if you buy something with a credit card you have the right to take if back at any time before 30 days and claim a refund, ie. cancel the credit agreement. D |
Pixel policy
"David Hearn" wrote in message ... Agamemnon wrote: "tpow" wrote in message ... "Agamemnon" wrote in message . uk... "Steve Thackery" wrote in message ... My point it, does the supplier actually claim it's Class 1 compliant? Or Class Anything compliant? It makes no difference. If the class is not clearly mentioned the ISO standard states that the screen is assumed to be Class 1. Are you saying that all flat panel TVs MUST - in law - comply with Class 1 unless stated otherwise? According to the ISO standard all LCD screens are sold as Class 1 screens unless it is stated clearly and prominently that they are not. The retailers cannot say afterwards, oh but the small print at the end of the manual says its Class 2. You don't get to read the manual in the shop. I didn't think the ISO standard was legally mandated. It legally mandated that if someone claims by omission that the screen meets the ISO standard Class 1 and it does not because there are pixel defects then they are misrepresenting what they are selling and are breaking EU law. All flat panels are sold on condition they meet ISO standards therefore unless you are told otherwise the standard states that the screen is being sold as Class 1 compliant, ie. no defective pixels or subpixels. This is on top of the Sale of Goods Act which would classify a screen with defective pixels as being of unmerchanable quality and not fit for purpose even if it is stated it is only Class 2 compliant, since a consumer is not expected to know what ISO standards classifications mean. Under the distance selling act if you are not satisfied with the screen and return it within 7 days even if the box has been opened and the good have been used then you have the automatic right to your money back. Under the Sale of Goods Act you have the right to a replacement or your money back if the goods are defective or are not fit for the purpose which they are sold, if you make a complaint or return the goods with 30 days of purchase. The manufacturers or retailers also have to guarantee the good for a reasonable period of time. If a £3000 LCD screen breaks down after only 3 or even 5 years the must fix it or replace it or compensate you even if they state the warranty is only for a year. You don't pay £3000 for something that will only last a year. SteveT the suppliers terms and Conditions say, Is the customer expected to have read all that? NO! According to the law the suppliers terms and conditions are not legally binding on the customer since they were not freely negotiated with the customer. Yes they are. The Terms and Conditions are legally binding, as long as they're made available at time of purchase (back of the invoice is sufficient) and that they're not unfair (eg. poor balance of power etc). If the terms and conditions must be negotiated with each and every purchaser, then that could make for one very long transaction. In effect though, the negotiation will go: Retailer: "Do you accept our terms and conditions" Customer: "No" Retailer: "Okay, bye". They're free to walk away from the transaction if they're unhappy with the T&Cs. If the customers doesn't get to see the temps and condition until after the purchase because they are only printed on the receipt and the retailer then clams the customer agreed to them then that's fraud. If the customers think the terms and conditions are unreasonable then they can claim they were making the purchase under duress. Unreasonable terms and conditions will not stand up in court. They do not state a class............ Then they are Class 1 according to the terms of the ISO standard and must not contain any defective pixels, irrespective of how much the manufactures want to whinge. Unless it is stated clearly on the product in the show room that it is other than Class 1 the manufactures claims will not stand up in court. You have the right to a product without defects and if you don't like it you may return it within 30 days for a refund. Just because an ISO standard has been written, doesn't make that standard mandatory. As I said before, please can you provide evidence to support your insistence that even if no mention of ISO 13406-2 is made (therefore no claim that it meets that standard) - that the display must still meet ISO 13406-2. READ WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID! If the ISO 13406-2 standard is advertised and no mention is made of the class, Class 1 the display is deemed to be compliant with Class 1 of the standard. If a retailer sells you an ISO 13406-2 compliant screen and doesn't tell you it is anything other than Class 1 and it has got dead or lit pixels then they are committing fraud and have violated the Trades Descriptions Act. D |
Pixel policy
"Clem Dye" wrote in message ... When I purchased my Sony 42-plasma some years ago it had a pixel stuck on green towards the middle of the screen - you saw it all the time - you couldn't miss it - on other colours it looked bright white (dunno why). By itself it would be green, but mixed with red and/or blue, it would appear white/yellow/cyan, which may all appear whitish on a small area. Perhaps the manufacturer should ink over the stuck pixel so it looks black, usually less noticeable. -- Bart |
Pixel policy
READ WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID!
If the ISO 13406-2 standard is advertised and no mention is made of the class, Class 1 the display is deemed to be compliant with Class 1 of the standard. If a retailer sells you an ISO 13406-2 compliant screen and doesn't tell you it is anything other than Class 1 and it has got dead or lit pixels then they are committing fraud and have violated the Trades Descriptions Act. But Agamemnon, the display is NOT advertised as ISO 13406-2 compliant!! Neither the advertising NOR the T&Cs mention ISO 13406-2. Therefore they are NOT bound by it. There are various ISO standards for fish tank heaters, but so long as the manufacturer does not claim compliance with them, they don't have to comply. Why are you having such trouble seeing this? SteveT |
Pixel policy
The standard itself states that a product is Class 1 compliant unless
clearly stated otherwise. No, no, no!! You are still doing it! What you're saying only applies IF THE PRODUCT CLAIMS TO COMPLY WITH ISO 13406-2! Look on the internet and read the retailers specifications pages. ISO 13406-2 is what they sated, but they don't mention a class. By definition of the standard the screen is being represented as a Class 1 defect free screen by omission of any other classification. Right! If, for that particular TV, compliance with the ISO is claimed, then you are absolutely right. Remember, an ISO has NO standing in law per se. Indeed, an ISO has no authority whatsoever. It only gets authority when it is made a legal requirement (e.g. various safety-related ones), or if the supplier claims compliance with it. SteveT |
Pixel policy
In article ,
Agamemnon wrote: The Consumer Credit Act gives you 30 days to cancel a credit agreement so if you buy something with a credit card you have the right to take if back at any time before 30 days and claim a refund, ie. cancel the credit agreement. No that Act has nothing to do with purchases by credit card. Your credit agreement in the case of a card is not with the retailer. -- From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey" Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11 |
Pixel policy
On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 01:24:40 -0000, "Agamemnon"
wrote: All flat panels are sold on condition they meet ISO standards By who? There is no compulsory standard. Pay an appropriate amount to a Chinaman and you could get screens produced with 100% defective pixels. You could pay extra to get a CE sticker. In this case the screen quite clearly doesn't meet any ISO standards for dead pixels but it is fit for the purpose of displaying a picture of Blackpool Lights..... in a power cut. -- |
Pixel policy
"Mike Henry" wrote in message ... In , "tpow" wrote: update, 1. Customer care, even though their web says they will respond within the day, have NOT replied. That's annoying either way after spending £1000. Not even a FO :-( 3. I am thinking along the lines of keeping the one I have rather than get a replacement that just might have more in far worse positions. You're legally entitled to a replacement, *or a refund* - and legally you have the choice as to which. 4. I'll put this purchase down to a new experience for me and others. If they try to fob you off go straight to Trading Standards. Stop wasting time because things get harder after 30 days. If I'd spent £1000 and was being illegally ripped off I'd be more than "annoyed" and "putting it down to experience". This is not just "one of those things" that you should shrug off. For goodness sake! in reality Mike, I like the machine and would only get another of the same (aesthetically it is very pleasing compared to others) and could or would end up in the same boat............after 7 days (see my other post)............with this or any make for that matter.................buying sight unseen. if I ask the supplier to change it I have to suffer return costs and the possibility that they say its not in resalable condition when it is, then they would probably send me one that THEY know has yet more iffy pixels but still under the manufacturers acceptable quantity. It's a gamble that I am not sure I would like to take. The fact of the mater is, it does not mention this problem on the 7 page brochure and sales DO NOT mention it when asked technical questions and you probably would not see a display model in a shop with the problem. It is up to the buyer who knows nothing about LCD's to find out..............if he knows nothing then he does not ask. The buyer is in the dark until he reads the manual or cares to fully read the supplies conditions which we all rarely do. |
Pixel policy
On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 20:55:57 -0000, "Agamemnon"
wrote: "David Hearn" wrote in message ... Never heard of a universal 30 day cooling off period (nor actually the No. It's a 7 day cooling of period under the Distance Selling Act and a 30 day statutory right to return defective or unfit goods and demand a refund. After 30 days you have the right to a reasonable period of warranty, irrespective of what the manufacturer says. The DSR does allow 7 working days send back the product (with some exceptions). However there is no statutory 30 day period where you can demand a refund. IIRC the law states something vague like "a reasonable time" which is open to interpretation. Some retailers put a period in their T&Cs, which may or may not be upheld if a case came to court. M. |
Pixel policy
On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 10:16:29 +0000, David Hearn
wrote: Personally, I wouldn't purchase a large screen LCD TV without viewing it in the shop with a black screen. Bright pixels are the worst for me. This is why I'd never buy one online - at least not without a "no dead pixel" policy (rare). You could always return it under the Distance Selling Regulations. |
Pixel policy
On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:16:53 GMT, Clem Dye wrote:
theory lets them off the hook. Sorry, but that's a crock. The Sale Of Goods covers you here - it's not of merchantable quality if it has dead pixels, period. When I purchased my Sony 42-plasma some years ago it had This is not so if the seller advertises the screen as being Class II. You try buying an LCD screen from Dabs and sending it back under SOG due to a stuck pixel - I don't think you would get very far! |
Pixel policy
"Jim Hatfield" wrote in message ... On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 10:16:29 +0000, David Hearn wrote: Personally, I wouldn't purchase a large screen LCD TV without viewing it in the shop with a black screen. Bright pixels are the worst for me. This is why I'd never buy one online - at least not without a "no dead pixel" policy (rare). You could always return it under the Distance Selling Regulations. having pondered and pondered and having received absolutely NO responses from their Customer Service I decided to contact Trading Standards. After I described the problem and informed them of said pixel policies the officer stated "you have a faulty television" regardless of their Terms and Conditions (pixel policy) and at nearly £1000 the supplier MUST either replace or refund. I have action the request by email, fax and recorded delivery. |
Pixel policy
"Jim Hatfield" wrote in message ... On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:16:53 GMT, Clem Dye wrote: theory lets them off the hook. Sorry, but that's a crock. The Sale Of Goods covers you here - it's not of merchantable quality if it has dead pixels, period. When I purchased my Sony 42-plasma some years ago it had This is not so if the seller advertises the screen as being Class II. You try buying an LCD screen from Dabs and sending it back under SOG due to a stuck pixel - I don't think you would get very far! see my above post re Trading Standards............ |
Pixel policy
On 05/02/2008 18:41, Jim Hatfield wrote:
You could always return it under the Distance Selling Regulations. Where "always" is restricted to seven days from receipt, and assuming this wasn't a face-to-face sale. |
Pixel policy
tpow wrote:
"Jim Hatfield" wrote in message ... On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:16:53 GMT, Clem Dye wrote: theory lets them off the hook. Sorry, but that's a crock. The Sale Of Goods covers you here - it's not of merchantable quality if it has dead pixels, period. When I purchased my Sony 42-plasma some years ago it had This is not so if the seller advertises the screen as being Class II. You try buying an LCD screen from Dabs and sending it back under SOG due to a stuck pixel - I don't think you would get very far! see my above post re Trading Standards............ What Jim was talking about though was if the display was advertised as, and specified by the manufacturer as, a Class 2 device - which specifies (according to an accepted international standard) that certain pixel faults are deemed to be acceptable. In these situations, I very very much doubt that trying to return *AS FAULTY* a display with pixel faults which were within the international Class 2 standard (and sold as such) would succeed. Additionally, I would expect that if you tried to take them to court over it, you would also fail as the device meets the specifications it was advertised to meet. The only way you would win, would be to get a judge to say that ISO 13406-2 Class 2 displays were not of satisfactory quality for sale in the UK - which would have a serious impact on international standards. Nothing removes your rights under the Distance Selling Regulations, so even if the display meets all the specifications it said it would, you're allowed to return the product for any reason. However, you're still liable for the original postage cost (it was a service which was provided), and the return postage costs for DSR returns. For a large TV this can add up. You're also required to return the goods in a saleable condition. The intention of the DSR is that you're able to inspect the goods, just like you could in a shop. The question is though, many retailers may not allow you to unpackage and turn on the device in the store (breaks the manufacturers seal etc). So, opening up the box, breaking the seals and actually using the device, may well void your rights to return under the DSR. This is a particular problem with laptops etc, which often cannot easily be returned to factory condition once turned on, and thus cannot be returned for immediate sale. D |
Pixel policy
Jim Hatfield wrote:
On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 10:16:29 +0000, David Hearn wrote: Personally, I wouldn't purchase a large screen LCD TV without viewing it in the shop with a black screen. Bright pixels are the worst for me. This is why I'd never buy one online - at least not without a "no dead pixel" policy (rare). You could always return it under the Distance Selling Regulations. Unless the cost is significantly less, and I have viewed the TV in a shop first - I wouldn't buy any large screen TV by distance - simply because the models vary so widely in picture quality with different inputs etc. For me, the possibility of dodgy pixels is one small factor in making a purchase of a large screen TV. Remember, you're responsible for the cost of returning under the DSR, and also for payment for delivery (which was a service which was provided) D |
Pixel policy
"David Hearn" wrote in message ... tpow wrote: "Jim Hatfield" wrote in message ... On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:16:53 GMT, Clem Dye wrote: theory lets them off the hook. Sorry, but that's a crock. The Sale Of Goods covers you here - it's not of merchantable quality if it has dead pixels, period. When I purchased my Sony 42-plasma some years ago it had This is not so if the seller advertises the screen as being Class II. You try buying an LCD screen from Dabs and sending it back under SOG due to a stuck pixel - I don't think you would get very far! see my above post re Trading Standards............ What Jim was talking about though was if the display was advertised as, and specified by the manufacturer as, a Class 2 device - which specifies (according to an accepted international standard) that certain pixel faults are deemed to be acceptable. In these situations, I very very much doubt that trying to return *AS FAULTY* a display with pixel faults which were within the international Class 2 standard (and sold as such) would succeed. Additionally, I would expect that if you tried to take them to court over it, you would also fail as the device meets the specifications it was advertised to meet. The only way you would win, would be to get a judge to say that ISO 13406-2 Class 2 displays were not of satisfactory quality for sale in the UK - which would have a serious impact on international standards. Nothing removes your rights under the Distance Selling Regulations, so even if the display meets all the specifications it said it would, you're allowed to return the product for any reason. However, you're still liable for the original postage cost (it was a service which was provided), and the return postage costs for DSR returns. For a large TV this can add up. You're also required to return the goods in a saleable condition. The intention of the DSR is that you're able to inspect the goods, just like you could in a shop. The question is though, many retailers may not allow you to unpackage and turn on the device in the store (breaks the manufacturers seal etc). So, opening up the box, breaking the seals and actually using the device, may well void your rights to return under the DSR. This is a particular problem with laptops etc, which often cannot easily be returned to factory condition once turned on, and thus cannot be returned for immediate sale. D The trading standards op I spoke to said 1 faulty (dead or stuck) pixel puts that unit into the Not of Satisfactory Quality bracket un the SoGA 1779 and IT IS a fault no matter what is said or printed by the supplier and manufacturer. Think about it its a transistor that's not working............so its faulty. ps Toshiba state up to 13 pixels can be "faulty"..............before they will replace. What a bag of worms pixels are. dj |
Pixel policy
Mike Henry wrote:
In , David Hearn wrote: Nothing removes your rights under the Distance Selling Regulations, [...] You're also required to return the goods in a saleable condition. The intention of the DSR is that you're able to inspect the goods, just like you could in a shop. That may be the intention, but all that matters is what the law actually says. The question is though, many retailers may not allow you to unpackage and turn on the device in the store (breaks the manufacturers seal etc). Indeed. In a shop you wouldn't be able to do that - which is why they provide you with display models to play with. Then you can buy a sealed item, knowing that it will be the same as the display one when you've got it home and set it up. So, opening up the box, breaking the seals and actually using the device, may well void your rights to return under the DSR. But this isn't a shop, you don't get two TVs in the post - one to play with and return, and the other that you should only open if you liked the first one! Under the DSR you need to be able to open, unpack, set up and use the item in order to decide if it's what you wanted. This is a particular problem with laptops etc, which often cannot easily be returned to factory condition once turned on, Tough, that's the retailer's problem, not the customer's. The DSR still applies and the customer is entitled to their refund. and thus cannot be returned for immediate sale. They certainly can be returned to the retailer by the customer under the DSR. Restoring default settings is a problem between the retailer and the manufacturer to be sorted out later. The cooling off period and right to cancel do not apply to contracts for: * goods made to the customer's specification; * perishable goods (flowers, fresh food); * CD, DVD, and tapes with software, audio or video if unsealed; * newspapers and magazines; * betting, gaming and lotteries I don't see laptops or PCs in that list! You are correct, and it appears I have misunderstood a number of points of the DSR. Particuarly: Original postage must be refunded too. The goods do not need to be returned in saleable condition, nor even with the original packaging. Unless stated in the original contract, you cannot charge for return delivery. They cannot require the refund to be withheld until goods are returned. A very helpful document is: http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/bus...ral/oft698.pdf Particular points: "Can I insist that consumers who cancel an order within the cancellation period return the goods as new or in their original packaging? 3.58 No. Consumers are under a duty to take reasonable care of the goods while in their possession as discussed in paragraph 3.44. The DSRs allow consumers to examine goods they have ordered as they would in a shop. If that requires opening the packaging and trying out the goods then they have not breached their duty to take reasonable care of the goods. In these circumstances you cannot insist that consumers return the goods as new or in their original packaging. You may ask consumers to return goods with the original packaging, but you cannot insist on this. In the case of goods such as earrings that have hygiene seals, you may require consumers to exercise reasonable care by not removing the seals when examining them. How can I resell the goods as new if they have been opened and tested by the customer? 3.59 The DSRs do not provide any general exception to the right to cancel on this point. Unless one of the specific exceptions referred to above at paragraph 3.38 applies, consumers can exercise their right to cancel a contract and return the goods to you. The DSRs do not link cancellation rights with a supplier’s ability to resell items as new." |
Pixel policy
"Steve Thackery" writes:
Right! If, for that particular TV, compliance with the ISO is claimed, then you are absolutely right. However if ISO compliance is not claimed then the manufacturer/retailer cannot use the excuse that ISO class 2 allows for a certain number of faulty (sub-)pixels when the customer complains that the screen is not perfect. |
Pixel policy
"Jim Hatfield" wrote in message ... On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:16:53 GMT, Clem Dye wrote: theory lets them off the hook. Sorry, but that's a crock. The Sale Of Goods covers you here - it's not of merchantable quality if it has dead pixels, period. When I purchased my Sony 42-plasma some years ago it had This is not so if the seller advertises the screen as being Class II. You try buying an LCD screen from Dabs and sending it back under SOG due to a stuck pixel - I don't think you would get very far! Done it last year with a Samsung monitor. It was advertised as Class 1 (by virtue of ISO compliance and omission of any disclaimer) and I sent it back within 7 days and got it replaced when I discovered a group of 4 dead pixels. |
Pixel policy
"David Hearn" wrote in message ... tpow wrote: "Jim Hatfield" wrote in message ... On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:16:53 GMT, Clem Dye wrote: theory lets them off the hook. Sorry, but that's a crock. The Sale Of Goods covers you here - it's not of merchantable quality if it has dead pixels, period. When I purchased my Sony 42-plasma some years ago it had This is not so if the seller advertises the screen as being Class II. You try buying an LCD screen from Dabs and sending it back under SOG due to a stuck pixel - I don't think you would get very far! see my above post re Trading Standards............ What Jim was talking about though was if the display was advertised as, and specified by the manufacturer as, a Class 2 device - which specifies (according to an accepted international standard) that certain pixel faults are deemed to be acceptable. In these situations, I very very much doubt that trying to return *AS FAULTY* a display with pixel faults which were within the international Class 2 standard (and sold as such) would succeed. Additionally, I would expect that if you tried to take them to court over it, you would also fail as the device meets the specifications it was advertised to meet. The only way you would win, would be to get a judge to say that ISO 13406-2 Class 2 displays were not of satisfactory quality for sale in the UK - which would have a serious impact on international standards. Nothing removes your rights under the Distance Selling Regulations, so even if the display meets all the specifications it said it would, you're allowed to return the product for any reason. However, you're still liable for the original postage cost (it was a service which was provided), and the return postage costs for DSR returns. For a large TV this can add up. You're also required to return the goods in a saleable condition. The intention of the DSR is that you're able to inspect the goods, just like you could in a shop. The question is though, many retailers may not allow you to unpackage and turn on the device in the store (breaks the manufacturers seal etc). So, opening up the box, breaking the seals and actually using the device, may well void your rights to return under the DSR. This is a particular problem with laptops etc, which often cannot easily be returned to factory condition once turned on, and thus cannot be returned for immediate sale. That excuse would not have much chance of standing up in court. You are entitled to unpackage the goods irrespective of what the retailer claims in their unilateral statement of terms and conditions which is not legally binding on the customer, otherwise how can you find out if the goods are any good. How else would you know if a pair of trousers or a shirt fits unless you take it out the packaging and put it on or if a TV produces a good enough picture which you find satisfactory. Just as long as you do not wear the clothes all day or use any electrical goods for longer than is necessary to test them then if you return them in 7 day you have the right to your money back or a replacement. D |
Pixel policy
On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 18:43:23 +0000, Jim Hatfield
wrote: On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:16:53 GMT, Clem Dye wrote: theory lets them off the hook. Sorry, but that's a crock. The Sale Of Goods covers you here - it's not of merchantable quality if it has dead pixels, period. When I purchased my Sony 42-plasma some years ago it had This is not so if the seller advertises the screen as being Class II. You try buying an LCD screen from Dabs and sending it back under SOG due to a stuck pixel - I don't think you would get very far! Despite what the say on their website Dabs even absolve themselves of responsibility for dead on arrival goods of all types - they immediately refer you to the manufacturers. The thought of buying an LCD from them or a TV is too frightening to even consider. In the case I'm aware of it was a modem that, despite what it clearly said on their website, simply didn't work with Windows 2000 - even after trying a brand new install with just a browser installed. It caused lots of grief at a critical time of a project. It was only 30 quid but Dabs attitude and the terminally crap manufacturers 'support' meant it went in the bin. But It cost Dabs at least a thousand times that when a few months later, as a direct result of this experience they were deleted from a preferred supplier list for computer hardware of a plc. Other than going with an external modem attached via RS232 it appears no one makes a real internal modem anymore - they are all soft/win modems - maybe ok in a pure Windows envionment but completely useless elsewhere. -- |
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