Question about upscaling
 

I just purchased an up scaling DVD player and I've got a question. Are some
DVDs incapable of being upscaled to 1080i? I set my DVD player to upscale to
1080i and popped in a DVD of an older TV show. When I pressed play, the
picture became scrambled for a second and then, according to my TV's
display, it began to display the TV show episode in 480p and not 1081i. It
is a DVD release of an older (1970s) TV show so perhaps would this DVD
release be incapable of being upscaled?

Question about upscaling
 

Using an LG DN798 upconverting DVD player.
If using the HDMI connector it will upconvert to 1080p, 1080i, 720p, 480p,
480i.

However there is a catch if using the component cables. There is apparently
a legal requirement to limit copy protected DVDs to 480p. Non-copyprotected
source will upconvert to the same as HDMI output.

For S-video output and Video output is fixed at 480i.

Michael

"Historian" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
I just purchased an up scaling DVD player and I've got a question. Are some
DVDs incapable of being upscaled to 1080i? I set my DVD player to upscale
to 1080i and popped in a DVD of an older TV show. When I pressed play, the
picture became scrambled for a second and then, according to my TV's
display, it began to display the TV show episode in 480p and not 1081i. It
is a DVD release of an older (1970s) TV show so perhaps would this DVD
release be incapable of being upscaled?

Question about upscaling
 

"Michael Walraven" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

However there is a catch if using the component cables. There is
apparently a legal requirement to limit copy protected DVDs to 480p.
Non-copyprotected source will upconvert to the same as HDMI output.

Then the manual on this DVD player lies. It states it will be able to up
convert to 1080i via component cables. The copy protection that requires
HDMI is not yet implemented I know.

Can anybody help me on why my DVD player will accept a picture at 1080i and
then when I press play on the DVD (it just did it again on Letters from Iwo
Jima) it downgrades to 480p?

Question about upscaling
 

"Historian" wrote:


"Michael Walraven" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

However there is a catch if using the component cables. There is
apparently a legal requirement to limit copy protected DVDs to 480p.
Non-copyprotected source will upconvert to the same as HDMI output.

Then the manual on this DVD player lies. It states it will be able to up
convert to 1080i via component cables. The copy protection that requires
HDMI is not yet implemented I know.

Can anybody help me on why my DVD player will accept a picture at 1080i and
then when I press play on the DVD (it just did it again on Letters from Iwo
Jima) it downgrades to 480p?

what player are you using?

I have seen none that can
"upscale" over the component outputs. All the up scaling players I
have seen clearly state that the upscalling feature is only available
using HDMI connections.

Its not a copyright issue, but a technical one.

The copyright issue is with HD/BR DVDs, has nothing to do with regular
DVDs.

Question about upscaling
 

common_ wrote in message
...
"Historian" wrote:


"Michael Walraven" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

However there is a catch if using the component cables. There is
apparently a legal requirement to limit copy protected DVDs to 480p.
Non-copyprotected source will upconvert to the same as HDMI output.

Then the manual on this DVD player lies. It states it will be able to up
convert to 1080i via component cables. The copy protection that requires
HDMI is not yet implemented I know.

Can anybody help me on why my DVD player will accept a picture at 1080i
and
then when I press play on the DVD (it just did it again on Letters from
Iwo
Jima) it downgrades to 480p?

what player are you using?

I have seen none that can
"upscale" over the component outputs. All the up scaling players I
have seen clearly state that the upscalling feature is only available
using HDMI connections.

Its not a copyright issue, but a technical one.

The copyright issue is with HD/BR DVDs, has nothing to do with regular
DVDs.

It's the Insignia NS-1UCDVD player. On page 7 of the manual it has a chart
that states via Component Video Out it will do 1920 x 1080i, 1280 x 720p,
720 x 480p and 720 x 480i. Then on Page 8 it does state "For 720p and 1080i
resolution on the component video out, only non-copy protected discs can be
played back. If the disc is copy protected, it will be displayed at the 480p
resolution without HDMI cable connection." To make matters seemingly worse,
the next sentence gets even more confusing, "With HDMI cable connection the
picture may not display properly."

So you and the previous poster are of course correct that it won't upscale
without HDMI. Unfortunately the manual (and the box) are rather deceptive
IMO. Technically, it will do 1080i via component, you just have to find a
non-copy protected disk to use the feature and nothing produced by Hollywood
is non-copy protected.

http://www.insignia-products.com/ski...1UCDVD_WEB.pdf

Definitely the last time I buy an Insignia product. I screwed up by not
knowing only HDMI will upscale, but they're not exactly being totally up
front about their product.

Question about upscaling
 

Relevant note on my LG up converter (I have checked my typing carefully -
this really is the wording).
Note for 1080p resolution
This unit is able to provide a 1080p full HD image to
most 1080p-capable TVs in the market today.
However, there are some 1080p TVs available from
certain companies that are limited in the types of
1080p images that can be accepted. Specifically,
1080p-capable TVs that don't accept images in 60HZ
can display an image from this unit.

(I presume that the last line should be 'can't ........'

Michael

"Historian" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

common_ wrote in message
...
"Historian" wrote:


"Michael Walraven" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

However there is a catch if using the component cables. There is
apparently a legal requirement to limit copy protected DVDs to 480p.
Non-copyprotected source will upconvert to the same as HDMI output.

Then the manual on this DVD player lies. It states it will be able to up
convert to 1080i via component cables. The copy protection that requires
HDMI is not yet implemented I know.

Can anybody help me on why my DVD player will accept a picture at 1080i
and
then when I press play on the DVD (it just did it again on Letters from
Iwo
Jima) it downgrades to 480p?

what player are you using?

I have seen none that can
"upscale" over the component outputs. All the up scaling players I
have seen clearly state that the upscalling feature is only available
using HDMI connections.

Its not a copyright issue, but a technical one.

The copyright issue is with HD/BR DVDs, has nothing to do with regular
DVDs.

It's the Insignia NS-1UCDVD player. On page 7 of the manual it has a chart
that states via Component Video Out it will do 1920 x 1080i, 1280 x 720p,
720 x 480p and 720 x 480i. Then on Page 8 it does state "For 720p and
1080i resolution on the component video out, only non-copy protected discs
can be played back. If the disc is copy protected, it will be displayed at
the 480p resolution without HDMI cable connection." To make matters
seemingly worse, the next sentence gets even more confusing, "With HDMI
cable connection the picture may not display properly."

So you and the previous poster are of course correct that it won't upscale
without HDMI. Unfortunately the manual (and the box) are rather deceptive
IMO. Technically, it will do 1080i via component, you just have to find a
non-copy protected disk to use the feature and nothing produced by
Hollywood is non-copy protected.

http://www.insignia-products.com/ski...1UCDVD_WEB.pdf

Definitely the last time I buy an Insignia product. I screwed up by not
knowing only HDMI will upscale, but they're not exactly being totally up
front about their product.

Question about upscaling
 

On 2007-06-30, Historian wrote:

Definitely the last time I buy an Insignia product. I screwed up by not
knowing only HDMI will upscale, but they're not exactly being totally up
front about their product.

This is an industry-wide practice. No current DVD player can upscale SD-DVD
over component. Not even HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players are allowed to do that for
SD-DVD discs, even though they do deliver HD over component for their native
formats (for the time being; this may be disabled in the future).

The reason is not technical, but because of patent licensing. It is a feeble
attempt at signal copy protection, making no sense at all because SD-DVD disc
copy protection was cracked years ago.

There are firmware hacks for some players that get around this. The Oppo 970
is good quality example.

Note that you don't absolutely "need" upscaling; the display will do it from a
480i or 480p signal. But the quality of deinterlacing in the player is often
better than that of the display.

-Bill
--
Sattre Press Tales of War
http://sattre-press.com/ by Lord Dunsany
http://sattre-press.com/tow.html

Question about upscaling
 

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 00:51:51 GMT Historian wrote:

| I just purchased an up scaling DVD player and I've got a question. Are some
| DVDs incapable of being upscaled to 1080i? I set my DVD player to upscale to
| 1080i and popped in a DVD of an older TV show. When I pressed play, the
| picture became scrambled for a second and then, according to my TV's
| display, it began to display the TV show episode in 480p and not 1081i. It
| is a DVD release of an older (1970s) TV show so perhaps would this DVD
| release be incapable of being upscaled?

Anything _can_ be upscaled. I don't know that primitive DRM in DVD even
had the concept that someone might upscale the video. But you don't get
any new information by upscaling, so I don't why that would be a DRM issue
in the first place.

So why do upscaling in the DVD player instead of the display?

Upscaling could be done better in the DVD by doing that upscaling during
the decompression. Smoothing the decompression is easier when doing it
at that time. It's just a change of how the decompression is done. The
problem is, interlacing causes complicated difficulties for both the
compression as well as the upscaling. Some of that can be mitigated by
upscaling from -OR- to progressiove. But upscaling from interlaced to
interlaced is "ugly". And I don't think you get much advantage by doing
it a decompress time in this case.

The problem you are seeing could be due to some artifact of the way the
interlacing was compressed in the DVD. Try setting the DVD player to do
the upscaling to a progressive format like 480p, 720p, or (if it and your
display can handle it) 1080p, and see what happens. Well, it seems the
DVD player already decided to do 480p on you. Try 720p.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

Question about upscaling
 

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 01:39:48 GMT Michael Walraven wrote:
| Using an LG DN798 upconverting DVD player.
| If using the HDMI connector it will upconvert to 1080p, 1080i, 720p, 480p,
| 480i.
|
| However there is a catch if using the component cables. There is apparently
| a legal requirement to limit copy protected DVDs to 480p. Non-copyprotected
| source will upconvert to the same as HDMI output.

This is silly. There is no extra information from upconversion. This
would make sense if the original content is higher than 480p and force a
downconversion to 480p or less. But there are ways to upconvert anything
outside the DVD player, and monitors do that. So it's just sillyness to
require that content that is already originally in 480p or less not be
allowed to be upconverted _in_ the player.

So resume your quest for the real reason.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

Question about upscaling
 

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 04:51:10 GMT common_ wrote:
| "Historian" wrote:
|
|
|"Michael Walraven" wrote in message
|news:[email protected]
|
| However there is a catch if using the component cables. There is
| apparently a legal requirement to limit copy protected DVDs to 480p.
| Non-copyprotected source will upconvert to the same as HDMI output.
|
|Then the manual on this DVD player lies. It states it will be able to up
|convert to 1080i via component cables. The copy protection that requires
|HDMI is not yet implemented I know.
|
|Can anybody help me on why my DVD player will accept a picture at 1080i and
|then when I press play on the DVD (it just did it again on Letters from Iwo
|Jima) it downgrades to 480p?
|
| what player are you using?
|
| I have seen none that can
| "upscale" over the component outputs. All the up scaling players I
| have seen clearly state that the upscalling feature is only available
| using HDMI connections.
|
| Its not a copyright issue, but a technical one.

So what is the technical reason?

If actual HD content can be output via the analog component output then
the digital to analog converters are certainly present that can handle
that high a data rate and frequency. If it can concert the content to
a digital HD stream, then why not also convert that upconverted digital
stream to analog just as it did for the digital HD stream that came in
that form?


| The copyright issue is with HD/BR DVDs, has nothing to do with regular
| DVDs.

There are copyright issues even in DVD. But it's generally not going to
be relevant to HD content being forced to downconvert for analog output
since very little HD content comes on DVD and very few DVD players can
handle it (though perhaps all the HD/BR players could).

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

Question about upscaling
 

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 05:18:09 GMT Historian wrote:

| It's the Insignia NS-1UCDVD player. On page 7 of the manual it has a chart
| that states via Component Video Out it will do 1920 x 1080i, 1280 x 720p,
| 720 x 480p and 720 x 480i. Then on Page 8 it does state "For 720p and 1080i
| resolution on the component video out, only non-copy protected discs can be
| played back. If the disc is copy protected, it will be displayed at the 480p
| resolution without HDMI cable connection." To make matters seemingly worse,
| the next sentence gets even more confusing, "With HDMI cable connection the
| picture may not display properly."
|
| So you and the previous poster are of course correct that it won't upscale
| without HDMI. Unfortunately the manual (and the box) are rather deceptive
| IMO. Technically, it will do 1080i via component, you just have to find a
| non-copy protected disk to use the feature and nothing produced by Hollywood
| is non-copy protected.
|
| http://www.insignia-products.com/ski...1UCDVD_WEB.pdf
|
| Definitely the last time I buy an Insignia product. I screwed up by not
| knowing only HDMI will upscale, but they're not exactly being totally up
| front about their product.

You are confusing upscaling with HD content. Hollywood's concern is with
the HD content coming out in full glory on analog outputs. SD content is
just SD even if you upconvert. The TV upconverts anyway if its native
resolution is higher than the SD.

If the licensing for the DRM even restricted upconversion of SD content,
then that clearly shows just how absurd the whole content industry has
become. These are the guys that time after time keep building crackable
systems. It's probably intentionally crackable so they can repeat whines
to government every few years and get more oppressive laws and free law
enforcement activities to help boost their profits. Hollywood may simply
be trying to destroy analog as much as they can, even though that is not
going to stop the "it only takes one leak and BAM! it's all over the net".

Upconverters do exist for analog to analog. So you could upconvert that
way. They are expensive because there is not much of a market for them.
As everything moves to digital, they will eventually vanish.

Let me know how your player does with THIS DVD: http://animusic.com/

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

Question about upscaling
 

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 09:29:27 GMT Michael Walraven wrote:

| Relevant note on my LG up converter (I have checked my typing carefully -
| this really is the wording).
| Note for 1080p resolution
| This unit is able to provide a 1080p full HD image to
| most 1080p-capable TVs in the market today.
| However, there are some 1080p TVs available from
| certain companies that are limited in the types of
| 1080p images that can be accepted. Specifically,
| 1080p-capable TVs that don't accept images in 60HZ
| can display an image from this unit.

All it does is upconvert? What advantage do you get out of it that your
display can't do?

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

Question about upscaling
 

On 30 Jun 2007 14:21:37 GMT Bill McClain wrote:
| On 2007-06-30, Historian wrote:
|
| Definitely the last time I buy an Insignia product. I screwed up by not
| knowing only HDMI will upscale, but they're not exactly being totally up
| front about their product.
|
| This is an industry-wide practice. No current DVD player can upscale SD-DVD
| over component. Not even HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players are allowed to do that for
| SD-DVD discs, even though they do deliver HD over component for their native
| formats (for the time being; this may be disabled in the future).
|
| The reason is not technical, but because of patent licensing. It is a feeble
| attempt at signal copy protection, making no sense at all because SD-DVD disc
| copy protection was cracked years ago.

It can be copied on the analog output in its original format. If one wants
to make a copy for distributing to others, then this is the way to do it,
not from an upscaled signal. Copying from upscaled does not improve the
real resolution at all. Copying from the original SD keeps the compression
most efficient. This is not a means to prevent piracy. Whether or not the
content owners understand this is unknown. Given their wrong way approaches
in so many things, and their attempts at lame encryption, it is no surprise
they chose this restriction because they genuinely believed it would help
stop piracy of HD content.


| There are firmware hacks for some players that get around this. The Oppo 970
| is good quality example.
|
| Note that you don't absolutely "need" upscaling; the display will do it from a
| 480i or 480p signal. But the quality of deinterlacing in the player is often
| better than that of the display.

In theory the player can delay the audio to match the delay introduced in
the video due to upscaling. To get this out of the display doing the
upscaling, you'd have to pass the audio through the display, too.

Although either device could upscale the video equally well, doing so in
the player could be done with less resource since doing so as part of the
decompression (which takes place for the analog output) would be simpler.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|