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LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
Looking to purchase my first LCD tv. I thought I had my mind set up on the
Samsung LE37M87BDX (Full 1080p). But, my dad has a small 26" Panasonic LCD and the quality of the picture is fantastic. He has since been told that the Panasonic LCD's are very very good, one of the best on the market. Anyone have any comments on either brand of TV? TIA |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
"diy-newby" wrote in message ... Looking to purchase my first LCD tv. I thought I had my mind set up on the Samsung LE37M87BDX (Full 1080p). But, my dad has a small 26" Panasonic LCD and the quality of the picture is fantastic. He has since been told that the Panasonic LCD's are very very good, one of the best on the market. Anyone have any comments on either brand of TV? TIA Samsung are a major manufacturer of LCD panels, Panasonic AFAIK are not - they use other manufacturers panels, possibly even Samsung. Samsung panels are also used by Dell for their range of computer monitors. OK so I am biased, I also have a Samsung 24" 244T 1920x1200 monitor which is defect free and I am very happy with. The Samsung M87 series has a gloss screen which may not be to everyone's taste as under certain conditions can give you unwanted reflections. Under the correct lighting conditions though the panels give an outstanding (quoted 10,000:1) contrast ratio and a genuine useable 170 degree viewing angle, and the best yet colour rendition I have seen for a LCD. Go along to your local Comet/Currys etc and have a look. Compare the Panasonic and Samsung offerings and then make up your mind. |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
"Icky Thwacket" wrote in message ... angle, and the best yet colour rendition I have seen for a LCD. Go along to your local Comet/Currys etc and have a look. Compare the Panasonic and Samsung offerings and then make up your mind. Thanks for the reply. Only thing with Comet/Curry's etc, the source of the picture is always crap. Why can't they get some nice quality feeds to the tv's? |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
diy-newby wrote:
"Icky Thwacket" wrote in message ... angle, and the best yet colour rendition I have seen for a LCD. Go along to your local Comet/Currys etc and have a look. Compare the Panasonic and Samsung offerings and then make up your mind. Thanks for the reply. Only thing with Comet/Curry's etc, the source of the picture is always crap. Why can't they get some nice quality feeds to the tv's? Because they're a bunch of dicks. |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
winker wrote:
diy-newby wrote: "Icky Thwacket" wrote in message ... angle, and the best yet colour rendition I have seen for a LCD. Go along to your local Comet/Currys etc and have a look. Compare the Panasonic and Samsung offerings and then make up your mind. Thanks for the reply. Only thing with Comet/Curry's etc, the source of the picture is always crap. Why can't they get some nice quality feeds to the tv's? Because they're a bunch of dicks. Shirly they're not all called Richard? |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
"diy-newby" wrote in message ... Looking to purchase my first LCD tv. I thought I had my mind set up on the Samsung LE37M87BDX (Full 1080p). But, my dad has a small 26" Panasonic LCD and the quality of the picture is fantastic. He has since been told that the Panasonic LCD's are very very good, one of the best on the market. Lookout for and read reviews of these sets by experts on the internet or in TV mags. We are unable to tell good from bad in shops. ( I know one store here feeds a dedicated aerial to the first TV set in the row. Others feed through a system. So this first set allways looks better than the rest.) I think Samsung might make CRT/ Screens for other makers. My friends bought a Panasonic make a few weeks back and are very pleased with it. -- Regards, David Please reply to News Group |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
"David" wrote in message ... "diy-newby" wrote in message ... Looking to purchase my first LCD tv. I thought I had my mind set up on the Samsung LE37M87BDX (Full 1080p). But, my dad has a small 26" Panasonic LCD and the quality of the picture is fantastic. He has since been told that the Panasonic LCD's are very very good, one of the best on the market. Lookout for and read reviews of these sets by experts on the internet or in TV mags. We are unable to tell good from bad in shops. ( I know one store here feeds a dedicated aerial to the first TV set in the row. Others feed through a system. So this first set allways looks better than the rest.) I think Samsung might make CRT/ Screens for other makers. My friends bought a Panasonic make a few weeks back and are very pleased with it. -- Regards, David Please reply to News Group If there is a branch near you, a visit to Richer Sounds might prove worthwhile . They stock LCD TVs from Samsung, Panasonic, LG, Philips, Sony, Hitachi & Sharp. (For currrent range, see http://www.richersounds.co.uk/). No hard sell. Just competitive prices and good service. The staff in my local store are always very helpful. |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
Adrian A wrote:
winker wrote: diy-newby wrote: "Icky Thwacket" wrote in message ... angle, and the best yet colour rendition I have seen for a LCD. Go along to your local Comet/Currys etc and have a look. Compare the Panasonic and Samsung offerings and then make up your mind. Thanks for the reply. Only thing with Comet/Curry's etc, the source of the picture is always crap. Why can't they get some nice quality feeds to the tv's? Because they're a bunch of dicks. Shirly they're not all called Richard? No! Dick, not Richard nor Shirly. Sometimes they've been know to answer to "dipstick" and "****wit". Mike |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
Paul Martin wrote:
In article , diy-newby wrote: "Icky Thwacket" wrote in message ... angle, and the best yet colour rendition I have seen for a LCD. Go along to your local Comet/Currys etc and have a look. Compare the Panasonic and Samsung offerings and then make up your mind. Thanks for the reply. Only thing with Comet/Curry's etc, the source of the picture is always crap. Why can't they get some nice quality feeds to the tv's? If you ask, I'm sure they'll happily connect a DVD to one of the sets to demonstrate it. I've had them do that in the past. I brought along a DVD of test patterns that I'd made myself. I asked them that once. No, they couldn't, because everything was *chained down*! With chains. The sales person thought it was stupid too. YMMV! dom. |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
This is my standard reply to questions like this ...
Take some DVDs (*) around the stores and ask to see them played on the most promising sets. This will give direct comparisons both between those in the shop and with the current set at home, then make a decision on what the eyes (and the wallet) say. * Hire some if necessary - I suggest a good mix of 3 - 5 including at least: 1) To check colour balance, one natural history and one sitcom or reality show (for human flesh tones indoors); 2) For interlacing and movement, some action shots such as the latest blockbuster that takes the fancy, and some interlaced sport action. 3) Any thing else commonly watched at home. 4) Perhaps something containing dark scenes for assessing contrast ratio. Also turn the set onto BBC News 24 or Sky News for how it shows poor quality material such as news clips. This will show up much more clearly on expensive sets such as LCDs, and, although it's strictly the material's fault rather than the TV's, if a more expensive set just shows the blemishes in the signal more clearly for most of what you view, that constitutes a valid reason not to spend the extra money. It's easier to justify an expensive set if you are going to be watching a lot of good source material such as DVDs. "diy-newby" wrote in : Looking to purchase my first LCD tv. I thought I had my mind set up on the Samsung LE37M87BDX (Full 1080p). But, my dad has a small 26" Panasonic LCD and the quality of the picture is fantastic. |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
"Owain" wrote in message ... David wrote: I think Samsung might make CRT/ Screens for other makers. They do, but (according to the demo person on QVC the other night) Samsung keep the best quality panels for their own-branded products. lol - i can imagine samsung throwing all the lcds that fail QA into a pile for sony or panasonic to buy - and those companies happily purchasing them! -- Gareth. That fly... is your magic wand. http://www.last.fm/user/dsbmusic/ |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
On Tue, 29 May 2007 22:25:46 +0100, "the dog from that film you saw"
wrote: "Owain" wrote in message . .. David wrote: I think Samsung might make CRT/ Screens for other makers. They do, but (according to the demo person on QVC the other night) Samsung keep the best quality panels for their own-branded products. lol - i can imagine samsung throwing all the lcds that fail QA into a pile for sony or panasonic to buy - and those companies happily purchasing them! I wouldn't be surprised if they sold them to Vestel. I know many years ago Plessey sold reject 2 watt audio amplifier chips to Sinclair who resold them as 5 watt amplifiers with a mark up of around 2000% knowing that probably half would be returned as 'unfit for the purpose of'. Graham C |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
On 30 May 2007 08:54:55 GMT, Paul Martin wrote:
I can happily praise Richer Sounds.[...] Seconded. They seem to be one of the few retailers left whose staff actually know something about what they're selling, and are motivated to provide what the customer wants. Rod. |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
In message , Owain
wrote David wrote: I think Samsung might make CRT/ Screens for other makers. They do, but (according to the demo person on QVC the other night) Samsung keep the best quality panels for their own-branded products. Yep, the QVC salesman is your friend and he is doing you a favour by selling to you :) From what I've seen most of the presenters are well outside of their comfort zone when talking about anything technical and their guests often talk b******t about rubbish they are selling. -- Alan news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
Better still, go to a good , independant TV dealer who will know about
the sets he or she sells, who will demonstrate them properly and install them to give their very best. Yes, you may pay a bit more but you will get a much better deal overall and they will be there for you if you have a problem. The only reason that the big stores exist is that people go to them thinking that they are getting a good deal. You only have to look at the comments on the forums to see that they don't know what they are selling and the sales children have little or no knowledge of installation, setting up or real performance. Whilst on the subject, beware, some of the highest profit making items on sale in the big stores are the add-ons. Scart leads, wall brackets and switch boxes. Last week I was asked to fit a 23" LCD TV flat on the wall. The customer had bought the set at Currys and the salesperson had sold her two very high-priced gold plated, thick scart leads to connect her Tescos DVD player and Alba VCR and also a £110 wall bracket saying it was the right one for the job. We used a £9.99 flat-to-the-wall bracket and 2 good quality flat screened scart leads for £6 each. (Her Sky box already had a scart lead.) The total job, including TV sale, from us including lnstallation labour and setting up would have been considerably less than she was going to pay altogether AND we would have sold her a model of TV which could have been controlled with the Sky remote handset. The one she had been sold could not although she had told them that she had Sky. |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
This is a LG/Philips LCD
http://uk.aldi.com/sunday_special_bu...pid_54092.html 3 year guarantee On May 29, 8:07 pm, Dominic wrote: Paul Martin wrote: In article , diy-newby wrote: "Icky Thwacket" wrote in message ... angle, and the best yet colour rendition I have seen for a LCD. Go along to your local Comet/Currys etc and have a look. Compare the Panasonic and Samsung offerings and then make up your mind. Thanks for the reply. Only thing with Comet/Curry's etc, the source of the picture is always crap. Why can't they get some nice quality feeds to the tv's? If you ask, I'm sure they'll happily connect a DVD to one of the sets to demonstrate it. I've had them do that in the past. I brought along a DVD of test patterns that I'd made myself. I asked them that once. No, they couldn't, because everything was *chained down*! With chains. The sales person thought it was stupid too. YMMV! dom.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
"Graham C" wrote in message ... I know many years ago Plessey sold reject 2 watt audio amplifier chips to Sinclair who resold them as 5 watt amplifiers with a mark up of around 2000% knowing that probably half would be returned as 'unfit for the purpose of'. I think I remember that, or was it all a dream? Top brands wouldn't really do a thing like that...would they? Roger R |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
In article ,
Roger R wrote: "Graham C" wrote in message ... I know many years ago Plessey sold reject 2 watt audio amplifier chips to Sinclair who resold them as 5 watt amplifiers with a mark up of around 2000% knowing that probably half would be returned as 'unfit for the purpose of'. I think I remember that, or was it all a dream? Top brands wouldn't really do a thing like that...would they? I always understood that the 5W Sinclair amp/chip was made for them by Texas Instruments who refused to put their name on them. I don't think "unfit for purpose" existed at the time of Sinclair. -- Nomad Theatre, East Horsley, Surrey www.nomadtheatre.com |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
"Roger R" wrote in message . I think I remember that, or was it all a dream? Top brands wouldn't really do a thing like that...would they? An electronics firm near me run out of a compoment, due to rejecting many of them, so in order to full the order used the rejected ones. -- Regards, David Please reply to News Group |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
wrote in message oups.com... Better still, go to a good , independant TV dealer who will know about the sets he or she sells, who will demonstrate them properly and install them to give their very best...... [snip] .......The total job, including TV sale, from us...... An completely objective opinion then. (I'm inclined to agree though) Roger R |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
An completely objective opinion then. (I'm inclined to agree though) Roger R I am biased, obviously, but I see it all the time and quite interestingly, people seem to enjoy telling me how badly they have been treated by the big stores. I cant really understand this one. I think I would tend to keep quiet about it if I had been to one of them, received less than perfect advice or service and still bought from them. |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
wrote in message s.com... I am biased, obviously, but I see it all the time and quite interestingly, people seem to enjoy telling me how badly they have been treated by the big stores. I cant really understand this one. I think I would tend to keep quiet about it if I had been to one of them, received less than perfect advice or service and still bought from them. Perhaps that's because they see the failure as the stores fault and not their own for making the wrong decision about where to buy. And they think that by subsequently blackening the store/your competitor they are demonstrating to you how much wiser they are now and perhaps you will be more favourably disposed to give them a good deal/service. Roger R |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
Perhaps that's because they see the failure as the stores fault and not their own for making the wrong decision about where to buy. And they think that by subsequently blackening the store/your competitor they are demonstrating to you how much wiser they are now and perhaps you will be more favourably disposed to give them a good deal/service. Roger R I hope we would anyway. Really I think it is all about being as honest as possible when asked for an opinion or to give a demo. I have even been known to send a prospective customer to a competitor for a particular piece of equipment if I feel it would suit them better than something we sell. At least it builds up trust and we will probably see them again later for something else or to do an installatioin. I would say though, that a big problem for the independant dealer trying to give the best service and advice, is the customer who uses a great deal of our time and facilities and then goes elsewhere to buy. This is always likely to happen but it has already lead to the demise of the majority of small dealers and just perpetuates the domination of the chain stores. One wonders what happens when the last small dealers close down and there is no one left to sort out and connect up the haphazard mess of equipment that many people seem to collect. Talking about the poor quality feeds which many stores have to their demo TV's: I wandered into Commet in a nearby town around Christmas 18 months ago. On one side of an isle they had a collection of "HD Ready" LCD and plasma TV's and on the other side they had the rest of the LCD's and plasma's. All of the sets on the "HD" side were fed from an HD source via component cables and were showing recent HD football (Great quality, of course). The "non HD" isle were showing an old football match which was obviously recorded in VHS quality (Definitely on tape or copied from tape) and all of the sets were connected with RF aerial cables ONLY! I am sure this must have come very close to mis-selling. I stayed around for a bit and listened to customers and it was obvious that none of them had the slightest idea about anything but what they saw on the screen. The salesman seemed pretty busy demonstrating the difference in quality. |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
A lot of what you guys say - the way chain stores rig their demos, the
ridiculous price of extras, etc - is fair comment, but in the end there is no substitute for the customer being well informed. From the customer's point of view, however, it's very difficult to get hold of the relevant information. As I have recently shown in another thread ... http://tinyurl.com/27ajfd ... standing in for ... http://groups.google.com/group/uk.te...b22a5b9d5794ce .... even making a rational choice of a new kettle is more complex than might at first appear, and in that thread the group seemed to agree with me that information posted on a manufacturer's website is just plain wrong, in that it runs contrary to the laws of physics! Within the last year or so, I've also looked at a replacement midi stereo for my bedroom/office, and a replacement soundcard for my PC, and not a single one of the units I looked at had technical specifications such as Frequency Response, Signal-To-Noise Ratio, or Total Harmonic Distortion, anywhere in the accompanying literature, though a few were available on websites, and I obtained one or two more by emailing manufacturers. AFAICR, such a situation would have been unthinkable in my youth, and at very least I simply wouldn't have bought anything where such specifications were not given. When you consider the above, and also consider some of the pseudo-science that has been put forward to bolster entrenched thinking, even in uk.tech.digital-tv, a technical ng where one has a right to expect independent rationality, then I regret I wouldn't trust even an 'independent' 'expert'. Hence my advice aimed at giving the OP some independent means of directly comparing sets, though I accept that it's true that: 1) Between stores, different DVD players, and the way they are connected to the TVs - RGB/CV/RF - are also implicitly being compared. 2) It's becoming obsolete to use DVDs for such a comparison because they are SD. However, I'm not sure how many suitable HD format disks the average punter could obtain for such a comparison, and how many stores could mount a demo with the particular one of competing formats a customer might bring in, while DVDs are at any rate commonly available and still a better source than most SD broadcast feeds (though the shots of the Namib desert in the last Natural World "Desert Lions" were breathtaking, even on five year old SD equipment - Panasonic 22" LCD fed via RGB from a Dreambox satellite decoder). I dread anything going wrong these days. Design, looks, and hype triumph over fact and functionality at every turn, and finding an adequate replacement for the simplest thing has become an obstacle course. I can't even get jeans that fit me because of my height. I had to wait to go into town for other reasons to get a refill for a decent biro. I had to buy a replacement battery for my mobile on-line, because all the local stores want to do is sell you a new one with a call package. (-: Wanders of into the sunset muttering something in a pseudo-Yorkshire brogue to the effect: "Eee! When I were a young 'un ..." :-) wrote in message oups.com... "Roger R" wrote in message ... |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
I dread anything going wrong these days. Design, looks, and hype triumph
over fact and functionality at every turn, and finding an adequate replacement for the simplest thing has become an obstacle course. I can't even get jeans that fit me because of my height. I had to wait to go into town for other reasons to get a refill for a decent biro. I had to buy a replacement battery for my mobile on-line, because all the local stores want to do is sell you a new one with a call package. (-: Wanders of into the sunset muttering something in a pseudo-Yorkshire brogue to the effect: "Eee! When I were a young 'un ..." :-) Well its what the public wants.. low prices and sod any after sales and service!.... How many times do you get the request "where can I get a whatever at the lowest possible PRICE" ?.... -- Tony Sayer |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
In message , tony sayer
wrote Well its what the public wants.. low prices and sod any after sales and service!.... What after sales service would you need with consumer products if you were just replacing the older version with something newer? -- Alan news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
On Thu, 31 May 2007 22:38:54 +0100, membership
wrote: In article , Roger R wrote: "Graham C" wrote in message ... I know many years ago Plessey sold reject 2 watt audio amplifier chips to Sinclair who resold them as 5 watt amplifiers with a mark up of around 2000% knowing that probably half would be returned as 'unfit for the purpose of'. I always understood that the 5W Sinclair amp/chip was made for them by Texas Instruments who refused to put their name on them. I don't think "unfit for purpose" existed at the time of Sinclair. I still have a few of these left - they were of two types one had two metal tabs to which the heatsink would be attached. The other had a 2BA bolt sticking out of it for the same purpose. They were definitely Plessey as my mate gave them to me - he left Sinclair's employment and went on to work for Plessey in Swindon. The Plessey spec was something like : 0.3 % THD at 1 W, 2.5% THD at 2 W, hence you can guess the distortion at 5 watts ! Re 'unfit for the purpose of' he told me that the biggest problem in working for Sinclair in Cambridge, was getting through the front door in the morning. If the post had already been you couldn't open the front door owing to the huge mound of returns on the other side. G. |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
In article , Alan
writes In message , tony sayer wrote Well its what the public wants.. low prices and sod any after sales and service!.... What after sales service would you need with consumer products if you were just replacing the older version with something newer? Don't suppose you would but don't expect much in the way of good advice when your buying it.. -- Tony Sayer |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
In message , tony sayer
wrote In article , Alan writes Don't suppose you would but don't expect much in the way of good advice when your buying it.. Who needs the advice of shop salespeople? They will only attempt to flog you the items with the greatest profit margin and then an unnecessary extended warranty. The only advantage shopping in a local store is that you can get the goods immediately without having to wait for delivery. -- Alan news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
In article , Alan
writes In message , tony sayer wrote In article , Alan writes Don't suppose you would but don't expect much in the way of good advice when your buying it.. Who needs the advice of shop salespeople? They will only attempt to flog you the items with the greatest profit margin and then an unnecessary extended warranty. The only advantage shopping in a local store is that you can get the goods immediately without having to wait for delivery. Well years ago when I was in the TV trade I reckon that overall pictures were much better then what they are today, as you had a trained engineer who knew what the picture was supposed to look like and we insisted that an efficient aerial be used and overall standards were higher. And today **** poor set up TV's showing nothing like they can do!. Two of our neighbours using indoor aerials with very mixed results and the widescreen that the other has all over the place!.... -- Tony Sayer |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
In article ,
tony sayer wrote: In article , Alan writes In message , tony sayer wrote In article , Alan writes Don't suppose you would but don't expect much in the way of good advice when your buying it.. Who needs the advice of shop salespeople? They will only attempt to flog you the items with the greatest profit margin and then an unnecessary extended warranty. The only advantage shopping in a local store is that you can get the goods immediately without having to wait for delivery. Well years ago when I was in the TV trade I reckon that overall pictures were much better then what they are today, as you had a trained engineer who knew what the picture was supposed to look like and we insisted that an efficient aerial be used and overall standards were higher. And today **** poor set up TV's showing nothing like they can do!. Two of our neighbours using indoor aerials with very mixed results and the widescreen that the other has all over the place!.... and I just found SWMBO watching dttv with the picture in 4:3 mode. She said she hadn't noticed ;-( -- From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey" Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11 |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
"charles" wrote in message ... In article , tony sayer wrote: In article , Alan writes In message , tony sayer wrote In article , Alan writes Don't suppose you would but don't expect much in the way of good advice when your buying it.. Who needs the advice of shop salespeople? They will only attempt to flog you the items with the greatest profit margin and then an unnecessary extended warranty. The only advantage shopping in a local store is that you can get the goods immediately without having to wait for delivery. Well years ago when I was in the TV trade I reckon that overall pictures were much better then what they are today, as you had a trained engineer who knew what the picture was supposed to look like and we insisted that an efficient aerial be used and overall standards were higher. And today **** poor set up TV's showing nothing like they can do!. Two of our neighbours using indoor aerials with very mixed results and the widescreen that the other has all over the place!.... and I just found SWMBO watching dttv with the picture in 4:3 mode. She said she hadn't noticed ;-( -- From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey" Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11 In my experience TWMBO (the collective noun for SWMBO :-) very rarely do - especially when it's a 4:3 stretched to 16:9. Personally I believe it is a genetically inherited defence mechanism designed to thwart our arguments for spending megabucks on an even bigger and better one before we even open our mouths...................... |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
diy-newby wrote:
:: Looking to purchase my first LCD tv. I thought I had my mind set up :: on the Samsung LE37M87BDX (Full 1080p). But, my dad has a small 26" :: Panasonic LCD and the quality of the picture is fantastic. He has :: since been told that the Panasonic LCD's are very very good, one of :: the best on the market. :: :: Anyone have any comments on either brand of TV? :: :: TIA Panasonic every time (as long as its the 600/700 not 60/70 range) I have the 600 series 32" lcd, its superb, got that after 2 months review hunting of all the 32" lcd's available, and then some 2 hours comparing in John Lewis's, got John Lewis to price match (was listed at £1300, got it for £999) and they chuck in a 5 year warranty, get yourself over to av forums and ask around, most helpful bunch of people http://www.avforums.com/ HTH -- daZza (remove "BUT_PLUG" to reply) *www.thekellyhouse.co.uk* |
LCD's - Panasonic vs Samsung
Java Jive wrote in message ... As I have recently shown in another thread ... http://tinyurl.com/27ajfd ... standing in for ... http://groups.google.com/group/uk.te...ad/thread/2c68 5270eed0b750/dfb22a5b9d5794ce?lnk=st&q=&rnum=1#dfb22a5b9d5794ce ... even making a rational choice of a new kettle is more complex than might at first appear, and in that thread the group seemed to agree with me that information posted on a manufacturer's website is just plain wrong, in that it runs contrary to the laws of physics! check out the first post from this link mk5000 "if I never see your face again. I don't mind cause we've gone much farther than I thought we'd go tonigh"--maroon 5 |
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