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I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
http://gear.ign.com/articles/735/735860p1.html
To try to get to the bottom of this situation, IGN contacted Microsoft and asked a few tough questions. Plenty of questions remain -- we're waiting to hear even more from the company -- but here's what we have so far. IGN: Will games begin to be developed with 1080p as the native resolution, or is the 360's new 1080p support an advance in the console's internal scaling abilities? Microsoft: If developed, the Xbox 360 will support playback of native 1080p games and all existing Xbox 360 titles can be up-scaled to 1080p. IGN : Does the Xbox 360 have the internal bandwidth between CPUs and graphics processors necessary to move a full 1080p image? There's a big difference between 1080i and the 3GB/s of 1080p. Microsoft: No Comment. IGN: There are very few 1080p native HDTVs that accept 1080p via Component connections. The signal will only come in as 1080i and be de-interlaced back to 1080p. How is the 360's new 1080p support, in practical application, going to be any different than what was already possible? Microsoft: We can offer 1080p support through both the VGA connection and the Component connection. IGN: Could Microsoft theoretically release an HDMI dongle-cable like the various other cables already available for the console? Is the current 360 hardware able to output a digital signal, or is it restricted to analog? Microsoft: Xbox 360 supports HD Component video output, which is compatible with nearly every HD ready TV on the market today. That's not yet true for HDMI. We are watching the market closely and will continue to evaluate our solution, in the face of consumer demand. Microsoft's current response doesn't yet explain how the company can rectify its claimed support of 1080p with the fact that the 360 doesn't support the connection (HDMI) that will actually allow most 1080p HDTVs to display the signal. While the VGA solution may work for a minority of 1080p HDTV owners, we're left wondering if Microsoft is promoting this new 1080p capability primarily to blunt the onslaught of the PlayStation 3, which supports HDMI and 1080p. Direct information regarding whether or not the current X360 hardware is able to output a digital signal would clarify the entire situation, but Microsoft hasn't been able to answer this question. Back in the days before the 360 launched, Microsoft stated that HDMI wires for the Xbox 360 would be released "when the market called for them." If the Xbox 360 is really going to be a 1080p machine, we're pretty sure the market is calling for HDMI wires right now. The next question is whether Microsoft will hear it. _______________________________________________ this question and non-answer was especially telling IGN : Does the Xbox 360 have the internal bandwidth between CPUs and graphics processors necessary to move a full 1080p image? There's a big difference between 1080i and the 3GB/s of 1080p. Microsoft: No Comment. ....................it doesn't matter what cables are (VGA, component, HDMI) if a machine isn't capable of rendering true 1080p native resolution to begin with........ I question the ability of the Xbox 360 to do true 1080p knowing the bandwidth constraints. the main external bandwidth in Xbox 360 is pretty low (22.4 GB/sec) the internal bandwidth EDRAMProcessing Logic of the second graphics chip is very high (256 GB/sec) but that might not help the Xbox 360 hit 1080p. the Xbox 360 is at heart, a 720p machine with the ability to do 1080i also, but the software upgrade for 1080p seem very hollow. |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
On 2006-09-28 18:54:49 +0100, "AirRaid Mach 2.5" said:
Microsoft: Xbox 360 supports HD Component video output, which is compatible with nearly every HD ready TV on the market today. That's not yet true for HDMI. We are watching the market closely and will continue to evaluate our solution, in the face of consumer demand. Isn't the minimum requirement for a TV to carry the HD Ready sticker that it supports 720p AND HDMI?? Cos those little 23" Samsung HDs that are in the 360 demo pods aren't allowed to say HD Ready, since without HDCP over HDMI they can't actually display HDTV. So by definition, that statement makes no sense. -- Zo For Sale: FIFA RTWC 06, Fight Night Round 3, Oblivion (all 360) |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
AirRaid Mach 2.5 wrote:
IGN : Does the Xbox 360 have the internal bandwidth between CPUs and graphics processors necessary to move a full 1080p image? There's a big difference between 1080i and the 3GB/s of 1080p. Microsoft: No Comment. Note the article's been updated IGN : Does the Xbox 360 have the internal bandwidth between CPUs and graphics processors necessary to move a full 1080p image? There's a big difference between 1080i and the 3GB/s of 1080p. Microsoft: *updated* Yes, the Xbox 360 has the necessary internal bandwidth between CPUs and graphics processors to move a full 1080p image. |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
Cos those little 23" Samsung HDs that are in the 360 demo pods aren't
allowed to say HD Ready, since without HDCP over HDMI they can't actually display HDTV. Don't know about the sticker or anything but HDTV is anything that can display a 720p picture. So anything with 1280x720 resolution or higher can output a HDTV image. |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
On 2006-09-28 18:54:49 +0100, "AirRaid Mach 2.5" said:
this question and non-answer was especially telling IGN : Does the Xbox 360 have the internal bandwidth between CPUs and graphics processors necessary to move a full 1080p image? There's a big difference between 1080i and the 3GB/s of 1080p. Microsoft: No Comment. 3GB/sec is a trivial bandwidth for CPU-GPU hardware. That's not a problem at all. ...................it doesn't matter what cables are (VGA, component, HDMI) if a machine isn't capable of rendering true 1080p native resolution to begin with........ I question the ability of the Xbox 360 to do true 1080p knowing the bandwidth constraints. the main external bandwidth in Xbox 360 is pretty low (22.4 GB/sec) the internal bandwidth EDRAMProcessing Logic of the second graphics chip is very high (256 GB/sec) but that might not help the Xbox 360 hit 1080p. I'm not an XBox360 dev but I'd say the major problem for the getting the 360 to do 1080p in games will be graphics mem. Bandwidth is something the 360 has plenty of. Once you up your screen buffers to 1080p you need a serious amount of graphics memory - 8MB for colour buffer, 8MB for 32bit Z-buffer. Now I'm not sure about how clever the 360 GPU is and whether it does fancy tiled z-buffer stuff, but you can rest assured than any new title which wants to use proper 1080p in game is going to have to make some sacrifices somewhere. The 360 only has 10MB of 'proper' graphics memory, so there are going to have to be some clever multi-pass or tiling techniques needed to get 1080p in game. MS do seem to have been able to coax 1080p out of the graphics chip but that doesn't mean that it can do it without a fair few compromises. As for HDMI I doubt the 360 has the encryption logic onboard to support the standard. There's nothing stopping MS producing a new 360 with an HDMI connector, but I seriously doubt you'll see an HDMI connector for the current hardware. But like I say, I'm not privvy to the internal developer info regarding the 360, so I could ba talking rubbish... -- Gamertag: FizzyChicken |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
On 2006-09-28 19:59:28 +0100, "Paulo De Souza"
said: Cos those little 23" Samsung HDs that are in the 360 demo pods aren't allowed to say HD Ready, since without HDCP over HDMI they can't actually display HDTV. Don't know about the sticker or anything but HDTV is anything that can display a 720p picture. So anything with 1280x720 resolution or higher can output a HDTV image. Yup, but for a TV to be HD Ready it has to be able to display HDTV, which means HDCP. -- Zo For Sale: FIFA RTWC 06, Fight Night Round 3, Oblivion (all 360) |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
"Zomoniac" wrote in message ... On 2006-09-28 19:59:28 +0100, "Paulo De Souza" said: Cos those little 23" Samsung HDs that are in the 360 demo pods aren't allowed to say HD Ready, since without HDCP over HDMI they can't actually display HDTV. Don't know about the sticker or anything but HDTV is anything that can display a 720p picture. So anything with 1280x720 resolution or higher can output a HDTV image. Yup, but for a TV to be HD Ready it has to be able to display HDTV, which means HDCP. -- Zo I don't follow that. Why does it have to have HDCP? I have a 37" Westinghouse that does 1080p and plays my HD content just fine. It's certainly HD Ready. What in the world does HDCP or HDMI have to do with it? |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
"Zomoniac" wrote in message
... On 2006-09-28 19:59:28 +0100, "Paulo De Souza" said: Cos those little 23" Samsung HDs that are in the 360 demo pods aren't allowed to say HD Ready, since without HDCP over HDMI they can't actually display HDTV. Don't know about the sticker or anything but HDTV is anything that can display a 720p picture. So anything with 1280x720 resolution or higher can output a HDTV image. Yup, but for a TV to be HD Ready it has to be able to display HDTV, which means HDCP. What a load of ********. HDTV does not mean HDCP. Try telling your theory to the hundreds of thousands of HDTV owners around that are currently watching HDTV on their telly that does not support HDCP... |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
On 2006-09-28 23:11:09 +0100, "Tom Scales" said:
"Zomoniac" wrote in message ... On 2006-09-28 19:59:28 +0100, "Paulo De Souza" said: Cos those little 23" Samsung HDs that are in the 360 demo pods aren't allowed to say HD Ready, since without HDCP over HDMI they can't actually display HDTV. Don't know about the sticker or anything but HDTV is anything that can display a 720p picture. So anything with 1280x720 resolution or higher can output a HDTV image. Yup, but for a TV to be HD Ready it has to be able to display HDTV, which means HDCP. -- Zo I don't follow that. Why does it have to have HDCP? I have a 37" Westinghouse that does 1080p and plays my HD content just fine. It's certainly HD Ready. What in the world does HDCP or HDMI have to do with it? You can't view HDCP protected tv broadcasts, ie all HD broadcasts, without HDCP, which is only supported by HDMI and a few DVI ports. So a TV like the Samsung 23", whilst it's HD resolution and will play 360 games and HD-DVDs at HD res, is not allowed to carry the HD Ready logo, because it can't display HDTV broadcasts, due to it only having analogue connections through VGA and Component. Annoyingly I can't find an example as 6 months ago, as you may be aware, Samsung changed all their product line, and the new 23" models have HDMI and carry the badge. If you can find anywhere selling the old model, the one that is in the 360 demo pods, you'll see it doesn't have HDMI and doesn't carry the HD Ready badge. (by the way, I notice this has been crossposted. The ruling stating that only HDCP support sets can carry the badge is a UK thing, where I'm from, so if you're posting from a US group and your rules are different, this may explain the confusion) -- Zo For Sale: FIFA RTWC 06, Fight Night Round 3, Oblivion (all 360) |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
On 2006-09-28 23:15:02 +0100, "nicely toasted" said:
"Zomoniac" wrote in message ... On 2006-09-28 19:59:28 +0100, "Paulo De Souza" said: Cos those little 23" Samsung HDs that are in the 360 demo pods aren't allowed to say HD Ready, since without HDCP over HDMI they can't actually display HDTV. Don't know about the sticker or anything but HDTV is anything that can display a 720p picture. So anything with 1280x720 resolution or higher can output a HDTV image. Yup, but for a TV to be HD Ready it has to be able to display HDTV, which means HDCP. What a load of ********. HDTV does not mean HDCP. Try telling your theory to the hundreds of thousands of HDTV owners around that are currently watching HDTV on their telly that does not support HDCP... I presume you're an American then, and have different rules. In the UK you can't get HDTV without HDCP. -- Zo For Sale: FIFA RTWC 06, Fight Night Round 3, Oblivion (all 360) |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
In alt.games.video.xbox Martin Linklater wrote:
As for HDMI I doubt the 360 has the encryption logic onboard to support the standard. There's nothing stopping MS producing a new 360 with an HDMI connector, but I seriously doubt you'll see an HDMI connector for the current hardware. Couldn't they do this in software and then just output the signal out the existing A/V port? Sure, you'd need a 360-HDMI cable (more money for Microsoft!) but at least it'd be a solution for the existing 360s. Down the road when they integrate the HD-DVD drive into the 360, I don't see why they couldn't rev the hardware to include proper HDMI support as well. I would just have to wonder if the performance difference between the old 360s, and these theorhetical HD-360s would be noticable or not. |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 22:26:12 -0000, Doug Jacobs
wrote: In alt.games.video.xbox Martin Linklater wrote: As for HDMI I doubt the 360 has the encryption logic onboard to support the standard. There's nothing stopping MS producing a new 360 with an HDMI connector, but I seriously doubt you'll see an HDMI connector for the current hardware. Couldn't they do this in software and then just output the signal out the existing A/V port? Sure, you'd need a 360-HDMI cable (more money for Microsoft!) but at least it'd be a solution for the existing 360s. Down the road when they integrate the HD-DVD drive into the 360, I don't see why they couldn't rev the hardware to include proper HDMI support as well. I would just have to wonder if the performance difference between the old 360s, and these theorhetical HD-360s would be noticable or not. i very much doubt it, as a tiny percentage of HDTVs out there currently support 1080p anyway. the whole thing is basically just MS taking the **** out of Sony, as they claimed the PS3 would be the only console offering 1080p. -- gamertag: Chrisflynnuk http://live.xbox.com/member/Chrisflynnuk Current eBay auctions: http://tinyurl.com/hutcb |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:15:02 +1200, "nicely toasted"
wrote: "Zomoniac" wrote in message ... On 2006-09-28 19:59:28 +0100, "Paulo De Souza" said: Cos those little 23" Samsung HDs that are in the 360 demo pods aren't allowed to say HD Ready, since without HDCP over HDMI they can't actually display HDTV. Don't know about the sticker or anything but HDTV is anything that can display a 720p picture. So anything with 1280x720 resolution or higher can output a HDTV image. Yup, but for a TV to be HD Ready it has to be able to display HDTV, which means HDCP. What a load of ********. HDTV does not mean HDCP. Try telling your theory to the hundreds of thousands of HDTV owners around that are currently watching HDTV on their telly that does not support HDCP... no, he's right, if a tv does not boast a HDMI port and a resolution capable of displaing at least 720p, it can't be "officially" badged as being HDTV ready in the UK, which is basically a way of showing that the set is "futureproof" we have a 42" LG Plasma tv, it has CVI, component and VGA inputs, but because its a few years old, lacks HDMI, so isn't deemed HDTV Ready, despite it being capable of displaying a High Definition analogue picture (ie the 360) -- gamertag: Chrisflynnuk http://live.xbox.com/member/Chrisflynnuk Current eBay auctions: http://tinyurl.com/hutcb |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
In microsoft.public.xbox nicely toasted wrote:
What a load of ********. HDTV does not mean HDCP. Try telling your theory to the hundreds of thousands of HDTV owners around that are currently watching HDTV on their telly that does not support HDCP... Not to mention all the sets that were sold BEFORE HDCP was even decided upon. In fact, have the details been decided upon yet? I thought it was still up in the air with regards to things like the broadcast flag and all that junk. |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
In microsoft.public.xbox Chris F wrote:
no, he's right, if a tv does not boast a HDMI port and a resolution capable of displaing at least 720p, it can't be "officially" badged as being HDTV ready in the UK, which is basically a way of showing that the set is "futureproof" Ah, that's the problem. The US has no such labeling. At least, not anymore. I seem to recall early sets from maybe 3-4 years ago saying they were "HD Ready", which meant they didn't have any internal tuners - they were just a display. |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
In microsoft.public.xbox Chris F wrote:
Down the road when they integrate the HD-DVD drive into the 360, I don't see why they couldn't rev the hardware to include proper HDMI support as well. I would just have to wonder if the performance difference between the old 360s, and these theorhetical HD-360s would be noticable or not. i very much doubt it, as a tiny percentage of HDTVs out there currently support 1080p anyway. the whole thing is basically just MS taking the **** out of Sony, as they claimed the PS3 would be the only console offering 1080p. Of course I'm assuming your display can handle 1080p - otherwise, it's a moot point if the console can do it or not. But yes, the announcement seemed designed to take the wind out of Sony's sails. |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:59:55 -0000, Doug Jacobs
wrote: In microsoft.public.xbox Chris F wrote: no, he's right, if a tv does not boast a HDMI port and a resolution capable of displaing at least 720p, it can't be "officially" badged as being HDTV ready in the UK, which is basically a way of showing that the set is "futureproof" Ah, that's the problem. The US has no such labeling. At least, not anymore. I seem to recall early sets from maybe 3-4 years ago saying they were "HD Ready", which meant they didn't have any internal tuners - they were just a display. aye, its just a consumer information thing more than anything else, so you can tell if its up to spec without having to examine the back/bottom of the set beforehand. doesn't stop some places from trying to sell what they claim are HDTV's though, but which are just LCD flatscreen televisions. i remember seeing one the other day, billed as "The UK's Cheapest LCD HDTV".....and when you check the specs, it has a native res of 850*480 or some such, making it SD, not HD. some places are honest, and don;t label them as HDTVs, but it doesnt stop them pushing them through their advertising as if they were, which is where the problem lies really. the general public doesnt have a clue about resolutions or what have you, they see a flat screen lcd/plasma telly, they just assume it is up to spec, which can lead to a lot of disappointed people when they realise they can only display a 480p signal max! -- gamertag: Chrisflynnuk http://live.xbox.com/member/Chrisflynnuk Current eBay auctions: http://tinyurl.com/hutcb |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
In alt.games.video.xbox Chris F wrote:
Ah, that's the problem. The US has no such labeling. At least, not anymore. I seem to recall early sets from maybe 3-4 years ago saying they were "HD Ready", which meant they didn't have any internal tuners - they were just a display. aye, its just a consumer information thing more than anything else, so you can tell if its up to spec without having to examine the back/bottom of the set beforehand. It's a problem in the US since most people just assume "big screen == HDTV". In fact, WalMart announced it would be carrying a line of inexpensive HDTVs - however when you actually examine them, they're just large screen SDTVs (like your LCD example). Most of them weren't even capable of 480p. To their credit they did have 1 true HDTV - but it was $1400 for some wacky brand no one's heard of. You could get a better set, at the same size, for about the same amount of money at Costco. But again, it's pretty commonplace for stores and companies to take advantage of uneducated consumers. And even if the government tries to regulate labels and such, the companies still try to exploit loopholes, or use other deceptive practices. |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
"Zomoniac" wrote in message
... On 2006-09-28 23:15:02 +0100, "nicely toasted" said: Yup, but for a TV to be HD Ready it has to be able to display HDTV, which means HDCP. What a load of ********. HDTV does not mean HDCP. Try telling your theory to the hundreds of thousands of HDTV owners around that are currently watching HDTV on their telly that does not support HDCP... I presume you're an American then, and have different rules. In the UK you can't get HDTV without HDCP. Actually no, I'm in Australia. |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
I promise you'll still have fun at 720 p. Dont be dumb.
"Zomoniac" wrote in message ... |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
* Zomoniac:
What a load of ********. HDTV does not mean HDCP. Try telling your theory to the hundreds of thousands of HDTV owners around that are currently watching HDTV on their telly that does not support HDCP... I presume you're an American then, and have different rules. In the UK you can't get HDTV without HDCP. This has _nothing_ to do with the country. Seems you didn't understand what "HD Ready" means. Of course nowhere in the world the "HD Ready" logo is _required_ for HDTV, not in the US, and not in the UK. "HD Ready" simply means that the device accepts a digital video signal with HDCP encryption over HDMI or DVI. A HDTV TV set without "HD Ready" logo is still HDTV, though, but without HDCP support and HDMI/DVI it's not allowed to carry the logo. This is the case everywhere in the world. So all the HDTV TV sets with analog component inputs are still HDTV, even without "HD Ready" logo. They just lack the logo and can't display encrypted HDCP content. But that doesn't mean they are not HDTV. Besides that, the value of "HD Ready" for customers is exactly zero as HDCP is just a copy protection system. HDCP also works with blacklists so it's possible that some day your nice "HD Ready" device won't display encrypted content any more because the movie industry thinks that this device isn't secure enough any more... Benjamin |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
* Chris F:
no, he's right, if a tv does not boast a HDMI port and a resolution capable of displaing at least 720p, it can't be "officially" badged as being HDTV ready in the UK, which is basically a way of showing that the set is "futureproof" "HD Ready" != HDTV ready... Benjamin |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:15:02 +1200, "nicely toasted"
wrote: Yup, but for a TV to be HD Ready it has to be able to display HDTV, which means HDCP. What a load of ********. HDTV does not mean HDCP. Try telling your theory to the hundreds of thousands of HDTV owners around that are currently watching HDTV on their telly that does not support HDCP... "HD Ready" does mean it has to have HDCP. -- Andrew, contact via http://interpleb.googlepages.com Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards, please don't top post. Trim replies to quote only relevant text. Check groups.google.com before asking an obvious question. |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
On 2006-09-29 05:18:26 +0100, Benjamin Gawert said:
* Zomoniac: What a load of ********. HDTV does not mean HDCP. Try telling your theory to the hundreds of thousands of HDTV owners around that are currently watching HDTV on their telly that does not support HDCP... I presume you're an American then, and have different rules. In the UK you can't get HDTV without HDCP. This has _nothing_ to do with the country. Seems you didn't understand what "HD Ready" means. Of course nowhere in the world the "HD Ready" logo is _required_ for HDTV, not in the US, and not in the UK. "HD Ready" simply means that the device accepts a digital video signal with HDCP encryption over HDMI or DVI. A HDTV TV set without "HD Ready" logo is still HDTV, though, but without HDCP support and HDMI/DVI it's not allowed to carry the logo. This is the case everywhere in the world. So all the HDTV TV sets with analog component inputs are still HDTV, even without "HD Ready" logo. They just lack the logo and can't display encrypted HDCP content. But that doesn't mean they are not HDTV. Besides that, the value of "HD Ready" for customers is exactly zero as HDCP is just a copy protection system. HDCP also works with blacklists so it's possible that some day your nice "HD Ready" device won't display encrypted content any more because the movie industry thinks that this device isn't secure enough any more... Benjamin What on earth is everyone going on about?! You said yourself, in the above post, that for a TV to be labelled "HD Ready", not just "HDTV", it has to carry HDMI with HDCP. I pointed out that MS said "Xbox 360 supports HD Component video output, which is compatible with nearly every HD ready TV on the market today. That's not yet true for HDMI." and commented on their strange choice of wording. They didn't say every HDTV, they said every HD *ready* TV, did not have HDMI. Which, as you said yourself, it has to, by very definition. Yes, I know I'm just being a pedantic ****, but nobody actually seems to understand what I'm talking about and going on about something completely different. -- Zo For Sale: FIFA RTWC 06, Fight Night Round 3, Oblivion (all 360) |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
"Zomoniac" wrote in message ... On 2006-09-28 19:59:28 +0100, "Paulo De Souza" said: Cos those little 23" Samsung HDs that are in the 360 demo pods aren't allowed to say HD Ready, since without HDCP over HDMI they can't actually display HDTV. Don't know about the sticker or anything but HDTV is anything that can display a 720p picture. So anything with 1280x720 resolution or higher can output a HDTV image. Yup, but for a TV to be HD Ready it has to be able to display HDTV, which means HDCP. I'm not sure Freeview HD will be HDCP'd. I don't think that it has been during the trial anyway. Shak |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
Shak wrote:
"Zomoniac" wrote in message ... On 2006-09-28 19:59:28 +0100, "Paulo De Souza" said: Cos those little 23" Samsung HDs that are in the 360 demo pods aren't allowed to say HD Ready, since without HDCP over HDMI they can't actually display HDTV. Don't know about the sticker or anything but HDTV is anything that can display a 720p picture. So anything with 1280x720 resolution or higher can output a HDTV image. Yup, but for a TV to be HD Ready it has to be able to display HDTV, which means HDCP. I'm not sure Freeview HD will be HDCP'd. I don't think that it has been during the trial anyway. Yeah but for Freeview HD (Terrestrial HD for anyone outside the UK who doesn't know) that's gonna have to wait until all analogue stations switch off starting in areas around the UK in 2007 and finishing in 2012. That's if they're still on track with that, mind you... -- Skipai |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
"Skipai Otter" wrote in message
... Shak wrote: "Zomoniac" wrote in message Yup, but for a TV to be HD Ready it has to be able to display HDTV, which means HDCP. I'm not sure Freeview HD will be HDCP'd. I don't think that it has been during the trial anyway. Yeah but for Freeview HD (Terrestrial HD for anyone outside the UK who doesn't know) that's gonna have to wait until all analogue stations switch off starting in areas around the UK in 2007 and finishing in 2012. That's if they're still on track with that, mind you... Yeh, alright. I was just disagreeing with all HDTV having to have HDCP. In fact, can't you watch Sky HD over component too? Shak |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
On 2006-09-29 13:34:27 +0100, "Shak" said:
"Skipai Otter" wrote in message ... Shak wrote: "Zomoniac" wrote in message Yup, but for a TV to be HD Ready it has to be able to display HDTV, which means HDCP. I'm not sure Freeview HD will be HDCP'd. I don't think that it has been during the trial anyway. Yeah but for Freeview HD (Terrestrial HD for anyone outside the UK who doesn't know) that's gonna have to wait until all analogue stations switch off starting in areas around the UK in 2007 and finishing in 2012. That's if they're still on track with that, mind you... Yeh, alright. I was just disagreeing with all HDTV having to have HDCP. In fact, can't you watch Sky HD over component too? Probably. But sooner or later the big film studios will start telling Sky that they want their content encrypting, and so to watch it you'll need HDMI or HDCP over DVI. HD Ready (NOT the same as HDTV) is a mark given to futureproofed TVs, a label that is awarded only if a tv a) supports 720p minimum AND b) supports HD content through an analogue connection AND c) supports HDCP protected content over a digital source. Only if ALL three criteria are met can it be badged "HD Ready", it's a standard to show that a set is futureproof and will still be usable in a few years when HDCP over HDMI becomes compulsary (probably). -- Zo For Sale: FIFA RTWC 06, Fight Night Round 3, Oblivion (all 360) |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
Are you guys really going to argue about a friggin sticker???
What on earth is everyone going on about?! You said yourself, in the above post, that for a TV to be labelled "HD Ready", not just "HDTV", it has to carry HDMI with HDCP. I pointed out that MS said "Xbox 360 supports HD Component video output, which is compatible with nearly every HD ready TV on the market today. That's not yet true for HDMI." and commented on their strange choice of wording. They didn't say every HDTV, they said every HD *ready* TV, did not have HDMI. Which, as you said yourself, it has to, by very definition. Yes, I know I'm just being a pedantic ****, but nobody actually seems to understand what I'm talking about and going on about something completely different. -- Zo For Sale: FIFA RTWC 06, Fight Night Round 3, Oblivion (all 360) |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
|
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
Wouldn't the fact that this bandwidth has to be shared between CPU and GPU
have some sort of effect? PC video cards have dedicated video memory -- they don't share it. The 360 has to share this bandwidth and I'll bet the GPU has to access this shared memory *frequently*. -- Doug "Martin Linklater" wrote in message news:[email protected] 3GB/sec is a trivial bandwidth for CPU-GPU hardware. That's not a problem at all. |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
On 2006-09-30 09:53:11 +0100, "pigdos" said:
Wouldn't the fact that this bandwidth has to be shared between CPU and GPU have some sort of effect? PC video cards have dedicated video memory -- they don't share it. The 360 has to share this bandwidth and I'll bet the GPU has to access this shared memory *frequently*. It's been designed with high speed CPU/GPU access in mind. I've not got the exact numbers to hand but I know that the original XBox had 6.4 GB/s memory bandwidth which was shared between the CPU and GPU. Since the 360 is considerably more advanced that the original XBox I would presume 3 GB/sec bandwidth between the CPU and the graphics mem is not a problem. Consider that you can buy things like upscaling DVD players which can output 1080p - they are basically performing the same task.. ie decompressing the data and copying it all up to a RAM buffer at 50Hz or whatever. The XBox is considerably more powerfull than your average upscaling DVD player. -- Gamertag: FizzyChicken |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
Bus contention would still be a problem, the GPU and CPU cannot be accessing
system memory simultaneously. For one thing, the more pixels we're pushing the more AA has to be performed. I'll bet this is one of the reasons the 360 can't do more than 2xAA, and can't do Adaptive AA or temporal AA at all. Does the 360 do any anisotropic filtering at all? -- Doug "Martin Linklater" wrote in message news:[email protected] On 2006-09-30 09:53:11 +0100, "pigdos" said: It's been designed with high speed CPU/GPU access in mind. I've not got the exact numbers to hand but I know that the original XBox had 6.4 GB/s memory bandwidth which was shared between the CPU and GPU. Since the 360 is considerably more advanced that the original XBox I would presume 3 GB/sec bandwidth between the CPU and the graphics mem is not a problem. Consider that you can buy things like upscaling DVD players which can output 1080p - they are basically performing the same task.. ie decompressing the data and copying it all up to a RAM buffer at 50Hz or whatever. The XBox is considerably more powerfull than your average upscaling DVD player. -- Gamertag: FizzyChicken |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
On 2006-10-02 15:43:02 +0100, "pigdos" said:
Bus contention would still be a problem, the GPU and CPU cannot be accessing system memory simultaneously. It depends on how many DMA channels there are. The original XBox had 4 so I wouldn't expect the 360 to have any trouble with this. For one thing, the more pixels we're pushing the more AA has to be performed. I'll bet this is one of the reasons the 360 can't do more than 2xAA, and can't do Adaptive AA or temporal AA at all. Does the 360 do any anisotropic filtering at all? Yes. Even the original XBox had anisotropic filtering. -- Gamertag: FizzyChicken |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
All DMA implies is that the CPU doesn't have to get involved in
device-to-memory transfers, obviously this is a good thing, but it doesn't do much for the fact that the GPU is processing MASSIVE amounts of data from system memory. Hell, even AGP memory was relegated to mere texture storage, but in the 360 everything the GPU processes is in system memory. Anisotropic filtering, AA, textures, per pixel lighting/shading all of these involve the GPU reading/writing to system memory. Some of these operations can't even be done in one-pass which only adds to system memory thrashing. It's too bad no one can verify MS's marketing "specifications" about the 360. I'd love to see some SPECint or SPECfp benchmarks for the 360 or even some memory benchmarks for that matter. -- Doug "Martin Linklater" wrote in message news:[email protected] On 2006-10-02 15:43:02 +0100, "pigdos" said: Bus contention would still be a problem, the GPU and CPU cannot be accessing system memory simultaneously. It depends on how many DMA channels there are. The original XBox had 4 so I wouldn't expect the 360 to have any trouble with this. For one thing, the more pixels we're pushing the more AA has to be performed. I'll bet this is one of the reasons the 360 can't do more than 2xAA, and can't do Adaptive AA or temporal AA at all. Does the 360 do any anisotropic filtering at all? Yes. Even the original XBox had anisotropic filtering. -- Gamertag: FizzyChicken |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
On 2006-10-03 03:29:39 +0100, "pigdos" said:
All DMA implies is that the CPU doesn't have to get involved in device-to-memory transfers, obviously this is a good thing, but it doesn't do much for the fact that the GPU is processing MASSIVE amounts of data from system memory. Hell, even AGP memory was relegated to mere texture storage, but in the 360 everything the GPU processes is in system memory. Anisotropic filtering, AA, textures, per pixel lighting/shading all of these involve the GPU reading/writing to system memory. Some of these operations can't even be done in one-pass which only adds to system memory thrashing. It's too bad no one can verify MS's marketing "specifications" about the 360. I'd love to see some SPECint or SPECfp benchmarks for the 360 or even some memory benchmarks for that matter. After about 0.01 nanoseconds on Google I found this: http://features.teamxbox.com/xbox/11...-Dissected/p6/ GPU-Graphics RAM bandwidth = 256GB/s Main memory bandwidth = 22.4 GB/s Kinda makes that 3GB/s 1080p spec seem trivial eh ? -- Gamertag: FizzyChicken |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
"Martin Linklater" wrote in message news:[email protected] On 2006-10-03 03:29:39 +0100, "pigdos" said: All DMA implies is that the CPU doesn't have to get involved in device-to-memory transfers, obviously this is a good thing, but it doesn't do much for the fact that the GPU is processing MASSIVE amounts of data from system memory. Hell, even AGP memory was relegated to mere texture storage, but in the 360 everything the GPU processes is in system memory. Anisotropic filtering, AA, textures, per pixel lighting/shading all of these involve the GPU reading/writing to system memory. Some of these operations can't even be done in one-pass which only adds to system memory thrashing. It's too bad no one can verify MS's marketing "specifications" about the 360. I'd love to see some SPECint or SPECfp benchmarks for the 360 or even some memory benchmarks for that matter. After about 0.01 nanoseconds on Google I found this: http://features.teamxbox.com/xbox/11...-Dissected/p6/ GPU-Graphics RAM bandwidth = 256GB/s Main memory bandwidth = 22.4 GB/s Kinda makes that 3GB/s 1080p spec seem trivial eh ? -- Gamertag: FizzyChicken You what Love? |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
Duh, the 256GB/s is to 10MB of EDRAM. It's basically a glorified
framebuffer. How many textures can you store in 10MB? I don't think you can even process ANY form of AA at 1080p in 10MB (hint AA involves sampling MORE pixels than are acutally present, some forms of AA require 6 times the amount of data per pixel, per color, to be useful it should be 4 times the number of pixels present [which for 1080p won't fit in 10MB of anything). Guess you've got a lot to learn don't you? -- Doug "Martin Linklater" wrote in message news:[email protected] On 2006-10-03 03:29:39 +0100, "pigdos" said: http://features.teamxbox.com/xbox/11...-Dissected/p6/ GPU-Graphics RAM bandwidth = 256GB/s Main memory bandwidth = 22.4 GB/s Kinda makes that 3GB/s 1080p spec seem trivial eh ? -- Gamertag: FizzyChicken |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 18:37:30 GMT, "pigdos" wrote:
Duh, the 256GB/s is to 10MB of EDRAM. It's basically a glorified framebuffer. How many textures can you store in 10MB? I don't think you can even process ANY form of AA at 1080p in 10MB (hint AA involves sampling MORE pixels than are acutally present, some forms of AA require 6 times the amount of data per pixel, per color, to be useful it should be 4 times the number of pixels present [which for 1080p won't fit in 10MB of anything). Guess you've got a lot to learn don't you? yeah martin, get a clue about programming! -- gamertag: Chrisflynnuk http://live.xbox.com/member/Chrisflynnuk Current eBay auctions: http://tinyurl.com/hutcb |
I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p
pigdos wrote:
Duh, the 256GB/s is to 10MB of EDRAM. It's basically a glorified framebuffer. How many textures can you store in 10MB? I don't think you can even process ANY form of AA at 1080p in 10MB (hint AA involves sampling MORE pixels than are acutally present, some forms of AA require 6 times the amount of data per pixel, per color, to be useful it should be 4 times the number of pixels present [which for 1080p won't fit in 10MB of anything). Guess you've got a lot to learn don't you? Oh dear. You've just gone and messed yourself right up, 'PigDo'. |
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