will all current tv sets become obsolete?
 

common_ wrote:
wrote:

wrote:

Are there still some big advantages to digital even at
much lower resolutions?

A station can send out up to five low resolution digital channels in
the same bandwidth as one hd channel. That COULD mean more revenue, if
they can sell the advertisement. That's a big if.

I see

Dumb question on my part but can current low cost HDTV
units also pick up these lower def stations?

Yes,,,,,, thats what the "sub" channels are,,, its all part of the
same digital modulation broadcast standard.

and those channels are not so "lower def",,the can indeed be as good
as a current DVD - and much better than the "digital" crap being sent
out over sat and cable now.

Not if they are broadcasting 5 channels! Two at the most will look as good as a dvd.

Chip

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will all current tv sets become obsolete?
 

will all current tv sets become obsolete?
 

Bruce Tomlin wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

Dumb question on my part but can current low cost HDTV
units also pick up these lower def stations?

ALL tuners can pick up ALL stations. That's the reason tuners are
relatively expensive, because they have to decode full HD, even if the
final result is going to a cheap NTSC set.

In other areas such as Europe that don't yet have HD, they will have a
much harder time making HD mainstream because there are already so many
SD-only tuners which can't even display a degraded picture from the HD
transmission. Even though it meant a more costly transition, I think
the U.S. did the right thing by mandating HD reception capability from
the start.


There is a test broadcast of HD in the UK now. Many people are
pleasantly surprised to find that they can receive HD on their current
Freeview STB's even though it is broadcast in 8K using MPEG4 instead of
2K MPEG2. A lot, I don't know how many though, receivers being sold
there are upgradeable OTA. Something we were pushing for in 1999 when we
proposed that the US allow COFDM and that STB's use generic chips so
that they would either be able to use an advanced codec or be able to
upgrade to one as they became available.

Bob Miller

will all current tv sets become obsolete?
 

common_ wrote:
wrote:

common_ wrote:

Now if you really want to start a flame war here - suggest that in
2009 OTA HD will go away in favor of the OTA stations sending out 5
channels of SD, and selling their HD produced content to Sat and
Cable companies.
No need for me to start any flame wars here. g

But....is that scenario above likely?

And if yes....what's the big benefit in doing so?

Ok,,your the program manager for a local OTA station,,its 2009.

You have a choice - broadcast 5 SD channels that 95 percent of your
audience is watching (and you can sell adds on,,), or one HD channel
for maybe 5 percent of your audience can see OTA. Your station/network
can sell your HD produced feed to the Sat and Cable companies as part
of their HD Premium package thus earning your station extra money,
while you send out the same program in SD, plus 4 more money earning
sub channels to the 95 percent plus audience that could care less
about HD.

You go into your station manager boss and say - I want to send out a
single free HD feed, so 5 percent of our audience can see Tom Cruises
nose hairs.

Next day - you are flipping burgers at Mc D.


It is worse than that. If you decide to send out your HD free OTA you
are competing with yourself. For every customer that decides that they
don't need cable because they can get the HD fix they need you lose a
Dollar.

If one broadcaster does the sensible business decision to sell their HD
content only on cable or satellite and they make more money for their
stockholders doing that then all other broadcasters have the duty to do
the same or tell their shareholder why. Their job is to maximize
shareholders return not maximize HD.

It gets worse even than that since broadcasters can sell both SD and HD
OTA after they deliver ONE SD quality program free and they can do in on
proprietary receivers that use MPEG4 on ALL programs except that one
required SD program.

Again the market will demand that broadcasters maximize profit and that
may mean that they use most of their spectrum to deliver PPV or
subscriber based HD and SD programming.

I say may because there is some evidence that OTA may make more money
with ad supported free OTA programming than via subscription services.
But at the moment broadcasters seem to be addicted to the idea of cash
for their already ad supported content via cable and satellite.

In a true competitive environment broadcasters would be withholding
their content from cable and satellite, their natural competitors, and
maintaining their monopoly on this still most desired content so as to
increase the value of their OTA spectrum.

But they as well as the FCC have been in a race to devalue the OTA
spectrum for years which will culminate in more of this spectrum being
sold at auction.

Smart radio use of the broadcast spectrum is one example, broadband over
power lines is another, the choice of the worst modulation in the world,
8-VSB is another, locking in MPEG2 as the official codec with no upgrade
possibility is another and I could go on.

All things FCC point to a political decision to devalue the OTA spectrum
until it can be logically taken back from broadcasters and sold off.

Bob Miller

will all current tv sets become obsolete?
 

will all current tv sets become obsolete?
 

Wes Newell wrote:

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 03:26:02 +0000, wrote:

Ok,,your the program manager for a local OTA station,,its 2009.

You have a choice - broadcast 5 SD channels that 95 percent of your
audience is watching (and you can sell adds on,,), or one HD channel for
maybe 5 percent of your audience can see OTA.

Do you realize how stupid this is?

Your station/network can sell your HD produced feed to the Sat and Cable
companies as part of their HD Premium package thus earning your station
extra money, while you send out the same program in SD, plus 4 more
money earning sub channels to the 95 percent plus audience that could
care less about HD.

You go into your station manager boss and say - I want to send out a
single free HD feed, so 5 percent of our audience can see Tom Cruises
nose hairs.

Next day - you are flipping burgers at Mc D.

Must be what you do now.

So Wes

At the place you work (assuming you do work,,), they give away for
free your most expensive to make, and most desirable products...?

Wes - you need to take a few business courses.

and Wes,,if you dont have any usefull contribution to this debate,
please stay the off the group. I think most folks here are getting
tired of your personal attacks,and four lettter word based posts.

will all current tv sets become obsolete?
 

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 17:23:35 +0000, wrote:

So Wes

At the place you work (assuming you do work,,), they give away for
free your most expensive to make, and most desirable products...?

No. I don't work. I retired several years ago.

Wes - you need to take a few business courses.

Right.:-)

and Wes,,if you dont have any usefull contribution to this debate,
please stay the off the group. I think most folks here are getting
tired of your personal attacks,and four lettter word based posts.

You've already lost the debate. You claim OTA will all go to SD
broadcasting only. That hasn't happened to any degree anywhere in the US
to my knowledge. Certainly not here in one of the largest OTA markets in
the US. In fact, it's been just the opposite as more proof that your
idiotic claims are just that. I don't know what your reason is for
spreading such fud, but that's certainly what it is. And BTW, If you don't
like my post don't read them. So take your "stay off the group" and shove
it where the sun doesn't shine.

--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
HD Tivo S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm

will all current tv sets become obsolete?
 

wrote:
Wes Newell wrote:

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 03:26:02 +0000, wrote:

Ok,,your the program manager for a local OTA station,,its 2009.

You have a choice - broadcast 5 SD channels that 95 percent of
your
audience is watching (and you can sell adds on,,), or one HD
channel for
maybe 5 percent of your audience can see OTA.

Do you realize how stupid this is?

Your station/network can sell your HD produced feed to the Sat
and Cable
companies as part of their HD Premium package thus earning your
station
extra money, while you send out the same program in SD, plus 4
more
money earning sub channels to the 95 percent plus audience that
could
care less about HD.

You go into your station manager boss and say - I want to send
out a
single free HD feed, so 5 percent of our audience can see Tom
Cruises
nose hairs.

Next day - you are flipping burgers at Mc D.

Must be what you do now.

So Wes

At the place you work (assuming you do work,,), they give away for
free your most expensive to make, and most desirable products...?

Wes - you need to take a few business courses.

and Wes,,if you dont have any usefull contribution to this debate,
please stay the off the group. I think most folks here are getting
tired of your personal attacks,and four lettter word based posts.

It could be argued that similar situation took place with the
introduction of color which was a more significant change than HDTV.

What do you mean _free_? The advertisers pay and we have to sit through
the spots as penance for not paying directly - but it's our choice.

HD programs are more expensive until the new equipment is paid off. In
1985 a VPR-3 was 110K in '85 bucks. In 2006 a Sony SRW-5500 HD machine
is 115K dollars. It seems that it now costs _less_ in real dollars to
make HD shows than SD shows 20 years ago - and they look better to
boot.

As for Wes getting _salty_, I've only noticed that when he finds
himself talking to a wall. He is no competition for some of the others.

GG

will all current tv sets become obsolete?
 

Wes Newell wrote:

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 17:23:35 +0000, wrote:

So Wes

At the place you work (assuming you do work,,), they give away for
free your most expensive to make, and most desirable products...?

No. I don't work. I retired several years ago.

Wes - you need to take a few business courses.

Right.:-)

and Wes,,if you dont have any usefull contribution to this debate,
please stay the off the group. I think most folks here are getting
tired of your personal attacks,and four lettter word based posts.

You've already lost the debate. You claim OTA will all go to SD
broadcasting only. That hasn't happened to any degree anywhere in the US
to my knowledge. Certainly not here in one of the largest OTA markets in
the US. In fact, it's been just the opposite as more proof that your
idiotic claims are just that. I don't know what your reason is for
spreading such fud, but that's certainly what it is. And BTW, If you don't
like my post don't read them. So take your "stay off the group" and shove
it where the sun doesn't shine.

--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
HD Tivo S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm


Yeap Wes,,very mature,,,call names, present no cognizant arguments;
only I want it to be so, so its going to be so......

Its not 2009 yet Wes,,,OTA Analog hasnt gone away yet Wes,,, OTA
broadcasters in 2009 are going to have to MAKE MONEY - not give away
things.

You just do not want to address the real issues do you Wes,,??

Thank God for the American Economy that you do not work -
unfortunately the rest of us tax payer are most likely supporting
you,,

Let me guess,,retired government employee,,,?

will all current tv sets become obsolete?
 

"G-squared" wrote:

At the place you work (assuming you do work,,), they give away for
free your most expensive to make, and most desirable products...?

Wes - you need to take a few business courses.

and Wes,,if you dont have any usefull contribution to this debate,
please stay the off the group. I think most folks here are getting
tired of your personal attacks,and four lettter word based posts.

It could be argued that similar situation took place with the
introduction of color which was a more significant change than HDTV.

What do you mean _free_? The advertisers pay and we have to sit through
the spots as penance for not paying directly - but it's our choice.

HD programs are more expensive until the new equipment is paid off. In
1985 a VPR-3 was 110K in '85 bucks. In 2006 a Sony SRW-5500 HD machine
is 115K dollars. It seems that it now costs _less_ in real dollars to
make HD shows than SD shows 20 years ago - and they look better to
boot.

As for Wes getting _salty_, I've only noticed that when he finds
himself talking to a wall. He is no competition for some of the others.

as far as Wes,,I agree, he isn't the worst, but his problem is, he
calls anyone that posts a rational business model; a moron and an
idiot - and he never posts "his" rational business model for "his"
position - that post 2009 the sky is going to rain down with free HD
TV..??

Yes the cost of HD production is going down,,but that's not the issue.
The issue is, the OTA local broadcasters can send out 1 free HD feed,
or 5 SD feeds (not both) - and the HD audience for the HD feed is
maybe 5 percent of the total OTA viewers.

Go to Wal mart - they have rows of new 20 to 32 inch 4:3 SD only
Digital TVS, most for under 300 bucks... In 2009, you will be able to
buy a new 13 inch digital tv for your kitchen or garage for under a
hundred bucks. Those are not going to be HD,,they are going to be 4:3
SD sets.

HD is going to be a premium item - you will have to PAY extra on cable
or Sat to get it.

JQP does not care about picture quality,,,a select group, including
me, does, and select groups have to pay extra for their pleasures.