Drax (TOT)
 

ChrisM wrote:

Don't know if Bill was actually sticking up for 4x4s in towns, many people
think they are an un-necessary burden on already crowded city streets, but
'as socially unacceptable as drink-driving' ...? Come on, not really in
the same ballpark!

Quite possibly not, but it isn't obvious. When figuring out the answer
you need to take into account not just pollution & congestion but also
safety to the driver & pedestrians. For one thing, bull bars kill at
much lower speeds.

See for example:

http://www.normanbaker.org.uk/downloads/4x4Report.doc

and also

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...166175,00.html

--
Michael
m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t

Drax (TOT)
 

Bill Wright wrote:
"mike" wrote in message
. 1.4...
"Bill Wright" wrote in
:

"Their campaign against CO2 is is a vehicle for a much more radical
political agenda, however. "Our movement is based on questioning the
whole basis of economic growth" said Robbie Madden . . ."

While I agree with your thoughts about these people, I think the basic
problem is population growth, which necessarily causes economic growth,
which is all going to end, unless reversed, in unimaginable disaster.

Yes, and population growth is caused by immigration. Sucessive governments
have let us all down badly here, allowing so many people to enter the
country. It would be fine if the people coming in were selected on grounds
of ability --

[snip]

It's my understanding generally that has been the case, which totally
undermines your objections. An account which fits with my own
understanding, more or less, can be read he
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4203587.stm

It also fits with my expectations of people & more so governments. They
may be incompetent, but generally not as incompetent as self interested
& certainly not prone to acting out of a sense of duty or moral right;
thus if there's an influx of immigrants one can be reasonably sure it's
as someone here wants them for something.

All IMHO.

--
Michael
m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t

Drax (TOT)
 

Ivan wrote:
wrote:
Bill Wright wrote:

"mike" wrote in message
. 1.4...
"Bill Wright" wrote in
:


"Their campaign against CO2 is is a vehicle for a much more radical
political agenda, however. "Our movement is based on questioning
the whole basis of economic growth" said Robbie Madden . . ."

While I agree with your thoughts about these people, I think the
basic problem is population growth, which necessarily causes
economic growth, which is all going to end, unless reversed, in
unimaginable disaster.

Yes, and population growth is caused by immigration. Sucessive
governments have let us all down badly here, allowing so many people
to enter the country. It would be fine if the people coming in were
selected on grounds

Where are you at Bill!?

"population growth" refers to *world* population growth, that's the
problem, not our little (somewhat overcrowded) country.

Bill obviously means the population growth of the UK, which in my lifetime
has increased from 50 million to 60 million, despite a declining birthrate.

Yes, but I'm quite sure the original posting was about world
population, it's that is the problem.

--
Chris Green

Drax (TOT)
 

Bill Wright wrote:

"Ivan" wrote in message
.uk...
wrote:

Bill obviously means the population growth of the UK, which in my lifetime
has increased from 50 million to 60 million, despite a declining
birthrate.


Yes and it's long overdue that it was sorted out. We can't turn back the
clock, but we can start now with a complete ban on immigration except for
people whose skills we need. Furthermore we should ban totally people from
cultures which we know from experience will cause them to make no attempt to
integrate into mainstream society. The growth of ghettos full of alienated
people is a great danger.

This is just playing Little Britain, the growth of world population
swamps our problem (if there is one). If the worlds overpopulation
was dealt with then there wouldn't be the pressures on ours.

--
Chris Green

Drax (TOT)
 

"JC" wrote in message
...

I think Blair is doing a fine job of turning this country in to the
cesspool of Europe. Cameras on every corner, the removal of the
justice system and mob rule all appear to be part of his founding
polices. If he can blame a few of his troubles on "immigrants" i'm
sure he'll jump on it. To be quite honest the UK is not a pleasant
place compared to much of western europe now - let alone in 30 years.

And yet 600,000 immigrants per year prefer to settle here rather than
anywhere else in europe.

(kim)

Drax (TOT)
 

" wrote in
oups.com:


You're 200+ years too late with that theory...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Malthus

Yup, I didn't claim originality!

And referring to another source, when I was at school in the fifties, I was
told that the population of the world was 3 thousand million (we used
proper numbers then) and the teachers sucked their teeth and implied it was
far too many and there'd be tears before bedtime.

I believe them

mike

Drax (TOT)
 

"Michael Rozdoba" wrote in message
...
Bill Wright wrote:
"mike" wrote in message
. 1.4...
"Bill Wright" wrote in
:

"Their campaign against CO2 is is a vehicle for a much more radical
political agenda, however. "Our movement is based on questioning the
whole basis of economic growth" said Robbie Madden . . ."

While I agree with your thoughts about these people, I think the basic
problem is population growth, which necessarily causes economic growth,
which is all going to end, unless reversed, in unimaginable disaster.

Yes, and population growth is caused by immigration. Sucessive
governments
have let us all down badly here, allowing so many people to enter the
country. It would be fine if the people coming in were selected on
grounds
of ability --

[snip]

It's my understanding generally that has been the case, which totally
undermines your objections. An account which fits with my own
understanding, more or less, can be read he
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4203587.stm

It also fits with my expectations of people & more so governments. They
may be incompetent, but generally not as incompetent as self interested
& certainly not prone to acting out of a sense of duty or moral right;
thus if there's an influx of immigrants one can be reasonably sure it's
as someone here wants them for something.

For sure. Skinflint employers who refuse to pay a decent living wage want
them for cheap labour. They'd employ orphans or slaves if they could but
that's illegal. Peugot in Coventry employed mentally handicapped people to
assemble its components. They were paid 30p per day and were threatened with
loss of their disability benefit if they refused.

(kim)

Drax (TOT)
 

mike wrote:
" wrote in
oups.com:

You're 200+ years too late with that theory...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Malthus

Yup, I didn't claim originality!

And referring to another source, when I was at school in the fifties, I was
told that the population of the world was 3 thousand million (we used
proper numbers then) and the teachers sucked their teeth and implied it was
far too many and there'd be tears before bedtime.

When's bedtime 'cos I have to be up in the morning?

--
Michael
m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t

Drax (TOT)
 

Michael Rozdoba wrote:
Bill Wright wrote:

Yes, and population growth is caused by immigration. Sucessive governments
have let us all down badly here, allowing so many people to enter the
country. It would be fine if the people coming in were selected on grounds
of ability --

[snip]

It's my understanding generally that has been the case, which totally
undermines your objections. An account which fits with my own
understanding, more or less, can be read he
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4203587.stm

It also fits with my expectations of people & more so governments. They
may be incompetent, but generally not as incompetent as self interested
& certainly not prone to acting out of a sense of duty or moral right;
thus if there's an influx of immigrants one can be reasonably sure it's
as someone here wants them for something.

You would have to be quite naive to believe that _everyone_ who comes
here "because we need their skills" actually comes here because we need
their skills! I'm sure most do, but I've seen nepotism on a shocking
scale.

The oft quoted "jobs which native people won't do" seems nonsense to me
as well. There seem to be plenty of English people doing nothing and
expecting the state to keep them. I'm sure they're quite capable of
being cleaners etc, so that's what they should do. Then we can all pay
less tax, and have fewer people/houses/cars etc. OTOH it may be the
people who come from other countries to be cleaners are "better people"
than some of those already here, in which case, we should do a swap!

Cheers,
David.

Drax (TOT)
 

"Paul D.Smith" wrote in message
...
That said, the way 4x4s charge around here ignoring traffic lights and
failing to bother with anything as mundane as indicators, the only visible
difference between them and many drunk-drivers is the time of day in which
you see them. But of course that probably says far more about the person
driving than the vehicle.

If I had to generalise I would say the worst drivers nowadays are young
women.

Bill