1080P Standard?
 

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 03:42:03 GMT Bob Miller wrote:
| wrote:
| On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:55:28 GMT Bob Miller wrote:
|
| | The bandwidth is there for 1080/60P we just have to use MPEG4 AVC codec.
| | Broadcasters could use this legally after delivering an SD quality
| | program with MPEG2. Of course if we were to allow MPEG4 for that SD
| | program all current receivers would be obsolete which would open the
| | door to switching modulations.
|
| I don't think the stations would be interested in yet another shuffling
| and juggling of channels and transmitters to go with a modulation that
| is better suited for smaller localized low power transmitters in large
| numbers. OTOH, if you really want to change modulation, how about QAM?
|
| COFDM is Coded Orthogonal Frequency Multiplexing normally using QAM as a
| modulation.
|
| Any COFDM (QAM) modulation is better suited than 8-VSB for either a
| single fixed high powered transmitter, a Single Frequency Network or a
| combination of both.

I'm curious, what happens to the higher COFDM power peaks if the PA or
other transmitter stage clips them off to the point where COFDM has a
peak to average ratio like that of 8-VSB? Wouldn't that produce a lot
of intermodulation effects in and out of the channel?


| There is not one broadcaster in the US that would not be ecstatic to
| switch to a COFDM modulation if they did not have must carry on cable.
| How must carry has twisted the thinking of the lawyers and accountants
| that run todays TV stations I can't totally fathom. As other new
| broadcasters use COFDM on old TV frequencies above channel 51
| broadcasters below 51 will awaken to just how puny must carry is to what
| they could be doing with their OTA spectrum id they just had the right
| tools.

How does must carry play into this?

What are the "broadcasters" above 51 going to be reaching people if they
don't have a must carry and aren't compatible with existing receivers?
Are you going to be supplying STB's?

I'm also curious why you aren't using MPEG-4 for that video on your web
page.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

1080P Standard?
 

G-squared wrote:
Bob Miller wrote:
Any switch of codecs with whatever parameters makes all current
receivers obsolete.

Since it does so we might as well consider switching modulations,
updating if you will, and we should consider ALL of the latest
versions
of all modulations including 8-VSB.

If we were to accept the idea that any COFDM modulation was less
power
efficient or couldn't handle adjacent channels as well as or was
more
susceptible to impulse noise than 8-VSB, all of which have been
rejected
by every country that has tested the two over the last ten years, it

would still make sense to switch to the latest version of 8-VSB.

At least that would be better than nothing. It would be stupid but
not
nearly as stupid as not taking advantage of the chance to upgrade.

But since all current receivers would be obsolete it would make more

sense to test all modulations to see which would be the best.

Bob Miller

While we're at it, how about change all the cars to right-hand drive?
How about 50 Hz power? Wouldn't the generators last longer because they
turn slower? We _could_ change to a 50 Hz frame rate then too. Then all
we'd have to put up with is screwed up audio when the 24 fps film is
run at 25 frame like the Europeans see. No more of that pesky 3:2
business. How about the metric system? Wait that _is_ a good idea !

I'll say one thing Bob. You're tenacious (obstinate) but you _are_
lightening up a bit.

GG

Horrors!! Always thought I was light.

If your analogy of changing to right-hand drive was apropos it would
only work if someone were proposing something that would make all
current cars obsolete. So who is proposing what that would render all
current cars obsolete?

Same with the other things you mentioned.

Allowing MPEG4 AVC would make all current receivers obsolete totally.

Including A-VSB as part of the ATSC standard would make up to 87% of any
specific current receiver obsolete. Any current receiver or any sold
before all receivers were mandated to be able to receive A-VSB would be
limited to receiving that portion of the spectrum that would offer an
8-VSB program.

As it is all current receivers will become 87% obsolete as broadcasters
begin to use MPEG4 on most of their 6 MHz channels which they are
allowed to do now and which competitive pressures will force them toward
IMO.

So if we decide that we should allow MPEG4 AVC on the last 13% of the
spectrum that current receivers are still good for you might as well
reconsider everything.

After all if things go on as they are and OTA simply fails completely
and Congress decides to sell off the rest of the free OTA spectrum all
current receivers will become obsolete that way to.

Bob Miller

1080P Standard?
 

1080P Standard?
 

Bob Miller wrote:
snip

I'm curious, what happens to the higher COFDM power peaks if the
PA or
other transmitter stage clips them off to the point where COFDM
has a
peak to average ratio like that of 8-VSB? Wouldn't that produce a
lot
of intermodulation effects in and out of the channel?

Not an engineer but my take is that worst case, to solve any problem

having to do with peak to average power differences between COFDM
and
8-VSB you would have to lower COFDM power slightly. The other take I

have been given is that the problem is of little or no significance.

Lowering power a smidgen eliminates the need to clip though that is

over rated as a problem as well I am told.

Broadcasters would, broadcasters have, in all cases where given the
choice except the US where their decision is colored by must carry
and
where there threatened and intimidated with the loss of their
spectrum
(all of it) or their must carry rights, chose COFDM over 8-VSB.


| There is not one broadcaster in the US that would not be
ecstatic to
| switch to a COFDM modulation if they did not have must carry on
cable.
| How must carry has twisted the thinking of the lawyers and
accountants
| that run todays TV stations I can't totally fathom. As other new

| broadcasters use COFDM on old TV frequencies above channel 51
| broadcasters below 51 will awaken to just how puny must carry is
to what
| they could be doing with their OTA spectrum id they just had the
right
| tools.

How does must carry play into this?

What are the "broadcasters" above 51 going to be reaching people
if they
don't have a must carry and aren't compatible with existing
receivers?
Are you going to be supplying STB's?

All of them will have to supply STB's or deliver content so
compelling
that the customer will buy such. Funny I don't see any of them
taking
advantage of the coming ubiquity of 8-VSB receivers due to the
mandate.

I wonder why? Why doesn't any new broadcaster consider 8-VSB what
with
all its advantages. The first broadcasters in that space will be
going
after the cell phone market which is what we proposed to them since
it
was in their line of work. But we would have gone after a broader
market
that would include all fixed, portable and mobile devices. The third

entrant, Hiwire, suggest they will do just that with their 12 MHz.
We
suggested that to them also. They were laughing for the first few
years.


You mean THIS cell phone market?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.t...7477183820af94

And Hiwire, which proposed DTV mobile, will not be considering 8-VSB

even with A-VSB.

I'm also curious why you aren't using MPEG-4 for that video on
your web
page.

Good question, maybe I will change it. It was a simple video meant
to
show a particular party what we were doing. Only later did I think
of
showing it to anyone else. The compression was not important.

Bob Miller

GG

1080P Standard?
 

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:52:22 GMT Bob Miller wrote:

| If your analogy of changing to right-hand drive was apropos it would
| only work if someone were proposing something that would make all
| current cars obsolete. So who is proposing what that would render all
| current cars obsolete?
|
| Same with the other things you mentioned.
|
| Allowing MPEG4 AVC would make all current receivers obsolete totally.

Statements like that just dig your hole of respectibility even deeper
than it already is.


| Including A-VSB as part of the ATSC standard would make up to 87% of any
| specific current receiver obsolete. Any current receiver or any sold
| before all receivers were mandated to be able to receive A-VSB would be
| limited to receiving that portion of the spectrum that would offer an
| 8-VSB program.
|
| As it is all current receivers will become 87% obsolete as broadcasters
| begin to use MPEG4 on most of their 6 MHz channels which they are
| allowed to do now and which competitive pressures will force them toward
| IMO.

There will be firmware upgrades. Some units probably already have MPEG4
to support other signals sources, anyway (e.g. cable, satellite).


| So if we decide that we should allow MPEG4 AVC on the last 13% of the
| spectrum that current receivers are still good for you might as well
| reconsider everything.

Then let's move on up to 2560x1440p60. MPEG4 could do that in 6 Mhz.

But NONE of this involves changing out station RF facilities, nor even
changing any translators, converters, or processors that don't need to
decompress image content (e.g. if they just re-digitize the bitstream
to restore it to clean and re-transmit or carry it over wire).

You weren't going to propose anything that involved RF waveform changes,
were you?


| After all if things go on as they are and OTA simply fails completely
| and Congress decides to sell off the rest of the free OTA spectrum all
| current receivers will become obsolete that way to.

Sounds like something that would give you joy. So, sit back and let it
happen.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

1080P Standard?
 

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 02:03:14 GMT Bob Miller wrote:
| wrote:

[...]

| I'm curious, what happens to the higher COFDM power peaks if the PA or
| other transmitter stage clips them off to the point where COFDM has a
| peak to average ratio like that of 8-VSB? Wouldn't that produce a lot
| of intermodulation effects in and out of the channel?
|
| Not an engineer but my take is that worst case, to solve any problem
| having to do with peak to average power differences between COFDM and
| 8-VSB you would have to lower COFDM power slightly. The other take I
| have been given is that the problem is of little or no significance.
| Lowering power a smidgen eliminates the need to clip though that is
| over rated as a problem as well I am told.

I've read estimates that the power reduction would be somewhere from 2db
to 6db, depending on type of coverage and terrain. That would mean fringe
reception would be a problem, and gaps would have to be filled in. That
means the channeling would have to be juggled yet again so channels can
be available for the fringe transmitters. So it would be a choice between
either changing channel or going up about 3db in peak power to maintain
the same average power. Such a PA stage would also waste more power, which
will show up on the electric bill forever.


| Broadcasters would, broadcasters have, in all cases where given the
| choice except the US where their decision is colored by must carry and
| where there threatened and intimidated with the loss of their spectrum
| (all of it) or their must carry rights, chose COFDM over 8-VSB.

I see the must carry rule is applicable to the relationship between cable
and the cable customers, not the broadcasters. Of course broadcasters do
benefit from such a rule. But the cable customers do, as well, to ensure
that the choice of NOT putting up an antenna is available to them. And I
fully support a full multi-channel must carry, as well, in the cases where
the cable system chooses to carry the station in digital (analog carriage
would only require the main subchannel, and one or the other alone would
meet the MCMC rule as I would write it). One exception I would support is
a cable system may elect to NOT carry any broadcast at all (e.g. operate
as an OTA supplement).

I would also favor MCMC rules to apply to satellite carriers as well.


| All of them will have to supply STB's or deliver content so compelling
| that the customer will buy such. Funny I don't see any of them taking
| advantage of the coming ubiquity of 8-VSB receivers due to the mandate.

Funny I don't see a wide choice of products on the market, yet. I think
the time is long past due to impose multi-million dollar fines on the
manufacturers.


| I wonder why? Why doesn't any new broadcaster consider 8-VSB what with
| all its advantages. The first broadcasters in that space will be going
| after the cell phone market which is what we proposed to them since it
| was in their line of work. But we would have gone after a broader market
| that would include all fixed, portable and mobile devices. The third
| entrant, Hiwire, suggest they will do just that with their 12 MHz. We
| suggested that to them also. They were laughing for the first few years.
|
| And Hiwire, which proposed DTV mobile, will not be considering 8-VSB
| even with A-VSB.

If the target market is mobile, COFDM makes more sense. There will be
many more smaller transmitters, too. And they have a fixed national
spectrum so they can manage it as they see fit.


| I'm also curious why you aren't using MPEG-4 for that video on your web
| page.
|
| Good question, maybe I will change it. It was a simple video meant to
| show a particular party what we were doing. Only later did I think of
| showing it to anyone else. The compression was not important.

I would have been happy with MPEG2. Hell, even DV would have been fine
by me (though it would be slow to download). But Flash? Phooey! If
you have video you want to let everyone see, use MPEG. MPEG4 should be
fine as long as it encoded with a non-broken codec.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

1080P Standard?
 

1080P Standard?
 

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 02:04:25 GMT Bob Miller wrote:
| wrote:
| On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:52:22 GMT Bob Miller wrote:
|
| | If your analogy of changing to right-hand drive was apropos it would
| | only work if someone were proposing something that would make all
| | current cars obsolete. So who is proposing what that would render all
| | current cars obsolete?
| |
| | Same with the other things you mentioned.
| |
| | Allowing MPEG4 AVC would make all current receivers obsolete totally.
|
| Statements like that just dig your hole of respectibility even deeper
| than it already is.
|
| I would be interested in hearing of current receivers that will be able
| to handle a switch to MPEG4. What percentage of all receiver out their
| are capable of this? Do you think that the $50 converter boxes and all
| integrated sets should be capable of MPEG4? How about A-VSB? All parties
| are working very hard to get A-VSB accepted ASAP. Should all mandated
| receivers be mandated to work with MPEG4 and A-VSB?

I'm not privy to the designs. I don't know how easy it is to reload
firmware. I don't know if they have a pluggable board inside or not.
If I were making the decisions on engineering design I certainly would
have made them modular and upgradeable. OTOH, marketing may be adamant
about forcing obsolescence and repurchasing.


| Do you agree that MPEG4 and/or A-VSB would make some or all current
| receivers obsolete? If so how many? Would it be as many as converting to
| COFDM in 2000 would have made obsolete? That was the key question at the
| time. The holy of holies, installed receivers.

It's possible. But I just don't know for sure, lacking the engineering
specifications.

I'm sure if things had been changed to go to COFDM in 2000, not all that
many sets would be obsoleted. Even that could have depended on modularity.

FYI, my preference for 8VSB is more based on how it behaves, not in the
obsolescence issue (I don't own a digital set/receiver/STB, yet).


| If we don't convert to MPEG4 you could argue that half the spectrum's
| capability is being wasted for the life of 8-VSB. If you don't add A-VSB
| to 8-VSB you restrict broadcaster such that many of them consider the
| future of the OTA spectrum, 2-51, to be irrelevant. Some suggest that
| during the actual DTV transition in a few years half of those who now
| still depend on OTA will be herded into cable or satellite services
| leaving a few die hards who simply don't watch much TV, don't watch any
| TV or who steal cable and satellite and therefore don't belong on the
| list of those who rely on OTA.

I personally would like to see the switch to MPEG4. But I don't want
to see a switch in modulation.


| And how do you count those who don't really rely on OTA though they
| don't have cable or satellite or FIOS but actually rely on broadband for
| much of their TV and only fall back on OTA occasionally?
|
| The 15% number of those who still rely on OTA is already very suspect
| and getting more so every day. Expect some politician to make a lot of
| hay over the argument that this spectrum can do a lot more good for the
| US treasury and other uses. Trial balloons have been attempted on this
| subject every so often. As the transition nears this will become
| headline stuff IMO.

Are you somehow trying to make sure OTA survives?


| So you are of the opinion that a firmware upgrade makes obsolete go
| away. What if the upgrade cost as much as a new receiver? What if it
| cost half as much as a new receiver, does that make for half obsolete?
| What if a new HD COFDM receiver cost half as much as the upgrade for an
| 8-VSB receiver that would otherwise be obsolete?

The rules that change to MPEG4 can deal with the cost issue.

OTOH, what will we do when MPEG5 comes out? MPEG6?

TV sets are going to become computers. Oh wait, they already are.


| Even an upgrade that made a current receiver both good for A-VSB and
| MPEG4 would still see your use of the spectrum massively inefficient
| compared to using the spectrum with a COFDM based modulation or maybe
| even with an improved from the bottom 8-VSB solution.

How many times bit rate bandwidth does COFDM provide compared to 8VSB?


| | So if we decide that we should allow MPEG4 AVC on the last 13% of the
| | spectrum that current receivers are still good for you might as well
| | reconsider everything.
|
| Then let's move on up to 2560x1440p60. MPEG4 could do that in 6 Mhz.
|
| Reconsider, not necessarily go to the nth on every aspect of this. We
| could decide that we want to be able to broadcast 1080/60P or that we
| want to adopt DMB-T/H, DVB-T/H or even an advanced 8-VSB. After all a
| lot of new HDTV's are capable of 1080/60P. The thing is if you accept
| the fact that going to MPEG4 and/or A-VSB is akin to making most of a
| given current receiver obsolete or most of all current receivers
| obsolete then it only makes common sense to take advantage of what is an
| opportunity to upgrade as much as possible.

I'm convinced that going with MPEG4 is a definite plus. I'm not convinced
of COFDM at all.


| And broadcasters would love to do just that and the cost to do so would
| not be any more than the upgrade to MPEG4 and A-VSB would be.

Modulator? PA? power bill?


| How long do you think the current 8-VSB will last? How do you see things
| shaking out as to OTA viewers using 8-VSB OTA receivers? Do you see an
| increase or decrease in OTA DTV viewers in the US? A substantial one? Or
| should we just ignore OTA 2-51 for the next 50 years?

I really don't know where OTA is headed. I do know the _networks_ would
prefer to be delivering over satellite and cable, rather than locals.
They already have some programming on that route now, anyway. If networks
do manage to move everything to satellite/cable, would that be the death
knell for broadcasters?


| I know of one TV station owner who is about to give up. Sell his
| stations to a speculator cheap who is willing to wait out this mess and
| make a killing in a few years. On the speculator side the thinking is
| that this mess has to be resolved in a reasonable period. The current
| owner no longer believes that is possible. Wants to sell cheap before
| the transition kills him.

And you think COFDM would even made any difference?


| I have been preaching the dangers to free OTA broadcasting that having
| the wrong modulation presents for the last six years and you think I
| would find joy in losing that argument? Just so I can say I told you so?
| It would be a lot more satisfying if I were to have some effect on
| changing the modulation and seeing the ensuing incredible rapid rebirth
| of OTA broadcasting in the US. And that would include a lot of HD using
| MPEG4, a lot of 480P that was captured by very good 720P cameras and
| upconverted to a very good 720P/1080i/1080P at the set.

I do suspect OTA will die in a couple decades (and that it will even be
obvious in a few years). But I also believe it has nothing to do with
the modulation, and everything to do with the programming. About the
only things worthwhile OTA are local news (HD not needed) and PBS. There
are some worthwhile national networks on the satellites and cable to fill
the void (IMHO, they are Animal Planet, Discovery, Food Channel, HGTV,
History Channel, Travel Channel, Weather Channel, and some news channels).

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

1080P Standard?
 

1080P Standard?
 

wrote:
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 02:03:14 GMT Bob Miller wrote:
| wrote:

[...]

| I'm curious, what happens to the higher COFDM power peaks if the PA or
| other transmitter stage clips them off to the point where COFDM has a
| peak to average ratio like that of 8-VSB? Wouldn't that produce a lot
| of intermodulation effects in and out of the channel?
|
| Not an engineer but my take is that worst case, to solve any problem
| having to do with peak to average power differences between COFDM and
| 8-VSB you would have to lower COFDM power slightly. The other take I
| have been given is that the problem is of little or no significance.
| Lowering power a smidgen eliminates the need to clip though that is
| over rated as a problem as well I am told.

I've read estimates that the power reduction would be somewhere from 2db
to 6db, depending on type of coverage and terrain. That would mean fringe
reception would be a problem, and gaps would have to be filled in. That
means the channeling would have to be juggled yet again so channels can
be available for the fringe transmitters. So it would be a choice between
either changing channel or going up about 3db in peak power to maintain
the same average power. Such a PA stage would also waste more power, which
will show up on the electric bill forever.


| Broadcasters would, broadcasters have, in all cases where given the
| choice except the US where their decision is colored by must carry and
| where there threatened and intimidated with the loss of their spectrum
| (all of it) or their must carry rights, chose COFDM over 8-VSB.

I see the must carry rule is applicable to the relationship between cable
and the cable customers, not the broadcasters. Of course broadcasters do
benefit from such a rule. But the cable customers do, as well, to ensure
that the choice of NOT putting up an antenna is available to them. And I
fully support a full multi-channel must carry, as well, in the cases where
the cable system chooses to carry the station in digital (analog carriage
would only require the main subchannel, and one or the other alone would
meet the MCMC rule as I would write it). One exception I would support is
a cable system may elect to NOT carry any broadcast at all (e.g. operate
as an OTA supplement).

I would also favor MCMC rules to apply to satellite carriers as well.


| All of them will have to supply STB's or deliver content so compelling
| that the customer will buy such. Funny I don't see any of them taking
| advantage of the coming ubiquity of 8-VSB receivers due to the mandate.

Funny I don't see a wide choice of products on the market, yet. I think
the time is long past due to impose multi-million dollar fines on the
manufacturers.


| I wonder why? Why doesn't any new broadcaster consider 8-VSB what with
| all its advantages. The first broadcasters in that space will be going
| after the cell phone market which is what we proposed to them since it
| was in their line of work. But we would have gone after a broader market
| that would include all fixed, portable and mobile devices. The third
| entrant, Hiwire, suggest they will do just that with their 12 MHz. We
| suggested that to them also. They were laughing for the first few years.
|
| And Hiwire, which proposed DTV mobile, will not be considering 8-VSB
| even with A-VSB.

If the target market is mobile, COFDM makes more sense. There will be
many more smaller transmitters, too. And they have a fixed national
spectrum so they can manage it as they see fit.


| I'm also curious why you aren't using MPEG-4 for that video on your web
| page.
|
| Good question, maybe I will change it. It was a simple video meant to
| show a particular party what we were doing. Only later did I think of
| showing it to anyone else. The compression was not important.

I would have been happy with MPEG2. Hell, even DV would have been fine
by me (though it would be slow to download). But Flash? Phooey! If
you have video you want to let everyone see, use MPEG. MPEG4 should be
fine as long as it encoded with a non-broken codec.

Don't understand your "But Flash?". We are using WMV as in
www.viacel.com/bob.wmv

That is closer to MPEG4 H.264 than it is to MPEG2. Have to suck up to MS
like everyone else also.

Bob Miller