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TOT Rant: Police, Camera, Inaction
We've been having a lot of problems here from youths riding motorbikes
through open spaces and a nature reserve. We even have a name for the most persistent offender, and video from my security camera. In the early days I called 999, but after a while I started to get: "This is not a matter of life or limb! You must call your local police station!". So the last two times I called the local station. My most recent conversation was like something out of Never Never Land ... "Is the offender still there?". "No, by the time it took you to answer the phone, naturally now he's gone!" "Then I'm sorry, sir, but we can't do anything, we need to catch the offender in the act!" "But if I can't report this to an emergency number, you're never going to be able to respond quickly enough to catch him in the act!" "Then I'm sorry, sir, but we can't do anything, we need to catch the offender in the act so's we can give him a ticket!" "A ticket? But he probably hasn't even got a licence to endorse! We have a name and video!" "I'm sorry, sir, but unless your CCTV is registered with the council, we shan't use it!" So they seem to be saying that they know a crime is regularly being committed, but it's transient and less serious nature (less serious until he runs over a child or a dog) means that they'll just ignore it! Perhaps such crime is not glamorous enough for them, or doesn't fall into their target statistics. The following is an excerpt from a letter of complaint to my local council group, covering amongst other things this very point. It was just before the elections, and one of them didn't get re-elected, but I'm still amazed that I haven't had *even* an acknowledgement! """ On at least three occasions, I've warned youths on motorcycles that they are breaking the law and that I would call the police on future occasions, but they persist. I'm also very concerned about the inconsistency of what happens when I do phone the police, particularly if you consider that with this sort of problem speed of response is essential. I quite accept that speed of response will vary with whatever other more pressing demands are being made on the police at the time, but not for other reasons such as I am about to relate. A while back, when youths were throwing stones, and a neighbour had been kept hanging on a local number trying to report it, I expressed surprise that she hadn't used an emergency number, and later asked an officer for clarification on this. His reply was clear, unambiguous, and made sense: "If a crime is actually being committed and/or the perpetrators are still at the scene, then use an emergency number, otherwise use a local number." However, on two occasions, including the most recent, when reporting youths on motorcycles in the reserve, I've either been put through to a message loop suggesting this was not subject for an emergency call, or been told verbally to call a local number. On yet other occasions, the response has been helpful, and twice there has even been a car there within 5-10 minutes. Despite the explanation of the officer who verbally warned me off, that the emergency number was for when life and/or limb are in danger (that was the gist of the phrase she used, but I can't now remember exactly how she expressed it), the actual response shows no such clear policy (and if it did, would contradict the advice previously given). Actually, response seems to be determined mainly by the attitude of whoever happens to take the call. Additionally, and call me an old cynic if you like, I can't help noticing that a likely result of removing all emergency calls not involving danger to life or limb will be a miraculous reduction in the number of emergency calls and an equally miraculous improvement in the response rate to those that remain, thus improving police statistics, but nothing else. On the contrary, problems such ours will probably get worse, because the response rate is likely to be slower, even when the police haven't got anything more urgent. For one thing, the call system has menu that must be negotiated, and then calls are answered in turn, so you have no idea how long you will be kept waiting and whether the youths will have gone by the time you've managed to report them. For another, will the response to the call be as urgent? I note further that the TVPA's leaflet distributed with our council tax literature claims that: "There have been significant improvements to the way in which we deal with incoming calls thanks to the employment of 49 extra Police Enquiry Staff, plus investment in new technology and training of staff to ensure that every call is handled as effectively as possible." Whoosh! Was that a pig just flew by?! How is putting someone trying to report a crime into a message loop and/or telling them to redial another number with a menu system effective? I was always under the impression that the emergency number was for people to report a crime quickly, it being up to the police to prioritise their response thereafter. Can you clarify with the TVPA whether they have issued any contrary guidelines to their emergency call centre staff, if so what these were, and why the wider public have not been informed of them? """ |
TOT Rant: Police, Camera, Inaction
I dunno why you're so surprised. This is the way of things now. Do you
really expect the police to do anything nowadays, other than nick people for speeding? Sh*t system, sh*t country. If I could get out, I would .... Clem Java Jive wrote: We've been having a lot of problems here from youths riding motorbikes through open spaces and a nature reserve. We even have a name for the most persistent offender, and video from my security camera. In the early days I called 999, but after a while I started to get: "This is not a matter of life or limb! You must call your local police station!". So the last two times I called the local station. My most recent conversation was like something out of Never Never Land ... "Is the offender still there?". "No, by the time it took you to answer the phone, naturally now he's gone!" "Then I'm sorry, sir, but we can't do anything, we need to catch the offender in the act!" "But if I can't report this to an emergency number, you're never going to be able to respond quickly enough to catch him in the act!" "Then I'm sorry, sir, but we can't do anything, we need to catch the offender in the act so's we can give him a ticket!" "A ticket? But he probably hasn't even got a licence to endorse! We have a name and video!" "I'm sorry, sir, but unless your CCTV is registered with the council, we shan't use it!" So they seem to be saying that they know a crime is regularly being committed, but it's transient and less serious nature (less serious until he runs over a child or a dog) means that they'll just ignore it! Perhaps such crime is not glamorous enough for them, or doesn't fall into their target statistics. The following is an excerpt from a letter of complaint to my local council group, covering amongst other things this very point. It was just before the elections, and one of them didn't get re-elected, but I'm still amazed that I haven't had *even* an acknowledgement! """ On at least three occasions, I've warned youths on motorcycles that they are breaking the law and that I would call the police on future occasions, but they persist. I'm also very concerned about the inconsistency of what happens when I do phone the police, particularly if you consider that with this sort of problem speed of response is essential. I quite accept that speed of response will vary with whatever other more pressing demands are being made on the police at the time, but not for other reasons such as I am about to relate. A while back, when youths were throwing stones, and a neighbour had been kept hanging on a local number trying to report it, I expressed surprise that she hadn't used an emergency number, and later asked an officer for clarification on this. His reply was clear, unambiguous, and made sense: "If a crime is actually being committed and/or the perpetrators are still at the scene, then use an emergency number, otherwise use a local number." However, on two occasions, including the most recent, when reporting youths on motorcycles in the reserve, I've either been put through to a message loop suggesting this was not subject for an emergency call, or been told verbally to call a local number. On yet other occasions, the response has been helpful, and twice there has even been a car there within 5-10 minutes. Despite the explanation of the officer who verbally warned me off, that the emergency number was for when life and/or limb are in danger (that was the gist of the phrase she used, but I can't now remember exactly how she expressed it), the actual response shows no such clear policy (and if it did, would contradict the advice previously given). Actually, response seems to be determined mainly by the attitude of whoever happens to take the call. Additionally, and call me an old cynic if you like, I can't help noticing that a likely result of removing all emergency calls not involving danger to life or limb will be a miraculous reduction in the number of emergency calls and an equally miraculous improvement in the response rate to those that remain, thus improving police statistics, but nothing else. On the contrary, problems such ours will probably get worse, because the response rate is likely to be slower, even when the police haven't got anything more urgent. For one thing, the call system has menu that must be negotiated, and then calls are answered in turn, so you have no idea how long you will be kept waiting and whether the youths will have gone by the time you've managed to report them. For another, will the response to the call be as urgent? I note further that the TVPA's leaflet distributed with our council tax literature claims that: "There have been significant improvements to the way in which we deal with incoming calls thanks to the employment of 49 extra Police Enquiry Staff, plus investment in new technology and training of staff to ensure that every call is handled as effectively as possible." Whoosh! Was that a pig just flew by?! How is putting someone trying to report a crime into a message loop and/or telling them to redial another number with a menu system effective? I was always under the impression that the emergency number was for people to report a crime quickly, it being up to the police to prioritise their response thereafter. Can you clarify with the TVPA whether they have issued any contrary guidelines to their emergency call centre staff, if so what these were, and why the wider public have not been informed of them? """ |
TOT Rant: Complaint to uninterested newsgroup!
"Java Jive" wrote in message ... We've been having a lot of problems here from youths riding motorbikes through open spaces and a nature reserve. We even have a name for the most persistent offender, and video from my security camera. God knows why you are telling us in this group. No one is that interested. In order to complain you must contact the police, not this newsgroup. If you want someone to complain on your behalf give us your name, address, phone number and all the log numbers of your calls made. Remember, complain to the people you have the problem with or they will not know you have a complaint. We only have your side of the story so far. |
TOT Rant: Complaint to uninterested newsgroup!
"Mal" wrote in message
... God knows why you are telling us in this group. It was marked TOT, and is by no means the only such OT post made here recently. In fact I posted it here because a similar themed one was posted a few months back. No one is that interested. Someone was a while back ... In order to complain you must contact the police If you weren't complaining yourself about my post, I'd be quite happy that you you didn't bother to read it far enough to see that I have already complained, but given that you are complaining about it, it would been better to bother to read it to the bitter end ... If you want someone to complain on your behalf Don't be daft. I'm merely wondering what others have tried given similar situations, or can helpfully suggest. |
TOT Rant: Police, Camera, Inaction
Java Jive wrote:
We've been having a lot of problems here from youths riding motorbikes through open spaces and a nature reserve. We even have a name for the most persistent offender, and video from my security camera. snip "A ticket? But he probably hasn't even got a licence to endorse! We have a name and video!" "I'm sorry, sir, but unless your CCTV is registered with the council, we shan't use it!" Have you investigated this? |
TOT Rant: Police, Camera, Inaction
"Clem Dye" wrote in message ... I dunno why you're so surprised. This is the way of things now. Do you really expect the police to do anything nowadays, other than nick people for speeding? Sh*t system, sh*t country. If I could get out, I would .... Clem Java Jive wrote: big snip Unless the home office put a tick box on the police performance questionnaire for catching scrotes on bikes then nothing will happen. All policing is based on two things , 1. raising cash 2. ticking boxes........ |
TOT Rant: Complaint to uninterested newsgroup!
Mal wrote:
"Java Jive" wrote in message ... We've been having a lot of problems here from youths riding motorbikes through open spaces and a nature reserve. We even have a name for the most persistent offender, and video from my security camera. God knows why you are telling us in this group. No one is that interested. In order to complain you must contact the police, not this newsgroup. If you want someone to complain on your behalf give us your name, address, phone number and all the log numbers of your calls made. Remember, complain to the people you have the problem with or they will not know you have a complaint. We only have your side of the story so far. This appears to be your first post to this group, the original was marked TOT, if you're not interested why did you open it. -- Adrian |
TOT Rant: Complaint to uninterested newsgroup!
"Adrian A" wrote in message ... Mal wrote: "Java Jive" wrote in message ... We've been having a lot of problems here from youths riding motorbikes through open spaces and a nature reserve. We even have a name for the most persistent offender, and video from my security camera. God knows why you are telling us in this group. No one is that interested. In order to complain you must contact the police, not this newsgroup. If you want someone to complain on your behalf give us your name, address, phone number and all the log numbers of your calls made. Remember, complain to the people you have the problem with or they will not know you have a complaint. We only have your side of the story so far. This appears to be your first post to this group, the original was marked TOT, if you're not interested why did you open it. -- Adrian So that it would be possible for society to recruit traffic wardens and various kinds of official prodnose, God in His infinite Wisdom included in the human race a few people of a certain mentality. This gentlemen is one of that group. Bill |
TOT Rant: Complaint to uninterested newsgroup!
Adrian A wrote:
Mal wrote: God knows why you are telling us in this group. No one is that interested. In order to complain you must contact the police, not this newsgroup. This appears to be your first post to this group, It's not :-( It's another dreary trollin' persona of 'ken r', 'john', 'rob' etc... -- Adrian C |
TOT Rant: Police, Camera, Inaction
Java Jive wrote:
We've been having a lot of problems here from youths riding motorbikes through open spaces and a nature reserve. We even have a name for the most persistent offender, and video from my security camera. snip Might be worth checking with your Local Council? Here in Solihull they run a joint venture with the police, and have confiscated and destroyed several hundreds of pounds worth of bikes so far! Several prosecutions too. |
TOT Rant: Police, Camera, Inaction
Thanks for that.
As it happens, I've just written a follow-up to my councillors, this time including one of a different political complexion just elected, so hopefully the feeling that each is being watched by the other(s) might make cross party involvement more successful. I've also heard of such co-operation more locally, Bracknell, I think - apparently some bikes were confiscated and put through a car-crusher. A guy repairing a window after a neighbouring kid's stray football told me about it. "Dickie mint" wrote in message ... Might be worth checking with your Local Council? Here in Solihull they run a joint venture with the police, and have confiscated and destroyed several hundreds of pounds worth of bikes so far! Several prosecutions too. |
TOT Rant: Police, Camera, Inaction
Wow, and did it! The phone's been going crazy all day!
The newly -elected councillor, eager to gain his spurs I daresay, not to mention outshine the political opposition, just happens to be an ex-copper. He got the letter this morning, came for tramp around the nature reserve within the hour (the tramp wasn't pleased - boom, boom) and got straight onto the council. I've been promised that the eyesores and the litter will soon be a thing of the past. But what he said about the police was particularly interesting ... 1) Technically, it's correct that 999 is only for 'danger to life and limb', but the local alternative is acknowledged to be working so badly that he felt that if a crime is actually in progress and there is a realistic possibility of obtaining an arrest, then use 999 - ie: the advice given by the beat officer was fundamentally sound. 2) The inadequacy of the local number system for things like local hit-and-run style youth crime has led to the trialling in Hampshire of the system on the American number (112, I think). If that's deemed a success, it will be rolled out nation wide. 3) What I was told about CCTV was rubbish, there is no legal or procedural bar to using private CCTV or photographs covering a *public* area, or to identify criminals in a *public* area. The one thing he did mention was that if the system subtitles the date and time, to ensure that it's the *correct* date and time, ie that the system clock is set correctly (I would imagine a good defence lawyer would drive a coach and four through it otherwise). CCTV or similar evidence invading people's privacy (ie: surveillance of them in their own homes) is unlikely to be accepted by courts in normal circumstances. And there was another incident this evening. Buoyed up by the councillor's advice I lay in wait for the youths on their way back and got one particularly nice pic of them on the bike. Boy! Were they stroppy and mad?! The pics are now in the possession of the police. Here's hoping ... "Java Jive" wrote in message . uk... As it happens, I've just written a follow-up to my councillors, this time including one of a different political complexion just elected, so hopefully the feeling that each is being watched by the other(s) might make cross party involvement more successful. |
TOT Rant: Police, Camera, Inaction
Java Jive wrote:
Wow, and did it! The phone's been going crazy all day! Great! I hope you finally get somewhere. snip 2) The inadequacy of the local number system for things like local hit-and-run style youth crime has led to the trialling in Hampshire of the system on the American number (112, I think). If that's deemed a success, it will be rolled out nation wide. You may interested to know, 112 is exactly the same as 999 and is meant to used across europe. The emegency number in America is 911. snip -- Adrian |
TOT Rant: Police, Camera, Inaction
"Colum Mylod" wrote in message
... "101" is what's new to Hampshire, 10p a shot. That's probably what was meant. Doesn't replace 999/112 for JJ's needs. That could have been what he said ... As long as no-one's collar is felt this type of thing will escalate but it will end up with vigilante ism. Which is exactly the position I've been put in. For me, it all started with their destruction of the local children's playground. After an absence of 18-24 months, we've had it back for about a year now, and it's used nearly every day by lots of children. I swore that I wasn't going to let anything like that happen again. Still, it's not all bad news around here. The fact that I feel able to pay attention to the copse and nature reserve is a sign of how much better things are in the street and the playground itself. For a while we had gangs of youths racing motorbikes, throwing stones, etc. I'm never one for counting chickens on a subject like this, but, for the moment at least, things are a lot better than they were. I think the turning point came when three of them climbed over a neighbour's fence and stole the child's Christmas present of a bike out of the garden shed. Fortunately, they were sufficiently worried about my CCTV that they first tried to kick it out with a football, during which they showed themselves to it, and also the bike happened to be the only one of its type in the area. The next day, the police found one of them riding it around an adjoining neighbourhood in the company of the other two, so when they came to view the video they just said: " Ah! That's a ... that's b ... and that's c!". The three are going away for a while. Word seems to have got around since, and the street is now a lot quieter. |
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