Internet radio in the UK
 

Does internet radio in the UK come under any form of regulation from OfCom
or the copyright bodies ie. PRS, PPL and MCPS and if so what are the rules
for playing copyrighted music if the station is internet only. Are there
international arrangements on paying royalties which are recognised by UK
law or can you more or lass play what you like or do you have to make
separate arrangements with every copyright body going ?

If I were to broadcast from the UK from my own server and people were
listening in the the UK and US who gets paid for what. What do the BBC pay
for example ?

Internet radio in the UK
 

On Fri, 5 May 2006 09:53:09 +0100, "Agamemnon"
wrote:

Does internet radio in the UK come under any form of regulation from OfCom
or the copyright bodies ie. PRS, PPL and MCPS and if so what are the rules
for playing copyrighted music if the station is internet only. Are there
international arrangements on paying royalties which are recognised by UK
law or can you more or lass play what you like or do you have to make
separate arrangements with every copyright body going ?

If I were to broadcast from the UK from my own server and people were
listening in the the UK and US who gets paid for what. What do the BBC pay
for example ?

Our local radio station lets people listen over the Internet. There's
a late night phone in program that I listen to if I'm in the car and
the presenter mentioned that the rules have just changed. Apperently
they're now going to broadcast on the Internet a day last so they can
take all the music out of it. He mentioned something about new rules.

I hope that's some help.

Sanddancer

Internet radio in the UK
 

At 09:04:00 on Fri, 5 May 2006, Sanddancer
wrote in :

On Fri, 5 May 2006 09:53:09 +0100, "Agamemnon"
wrote:

If I were to broadcast from the UK from my own server and people were
listening in the the UK and US who gets paid for what. What do the BBC pay
for example ?

Our local radio station lets people listen over the Internet. There's
a late night phone in program that I listen to if I'm in the car and
the presenter mentioned that the rules have just changed. Apperently
they're now going to broadcast on the Internet a day last so they can
take all the music out of it. He mentioned something about new rules.

Have a look at
http://technology.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,329470634-117422,00.html
which explains the problem. It's not happy news.

(That page is the "printable version" of the Guardian's story, as the
main page doesn't seem to work in Firefox.)
--
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

Internet radio in the UK
 

On Fri, 5 May 2006 16:20:43 +0100, Molly Mockford put finger to
keyboard and typed:

At 09:04:00 on Fri, 5 May 2006, Sanddancer
wrote in :

On Fri, 5 May 2006 09:53:09 +0100, "Agamemnon"
wrote:

If I were to broadcast from the UK from my own server and people were
listening in the the UK and US who gets paid for what. What do the BBC pay
for example ?

Our local radio station lets people listen over the Internet. There's
a late night phone in program that I listen to if I'm in the car and
the presenter mentioned that the rules have just changed. Apperently
they're now going to broadcast on the Internet a day last so they can
take all the music out of it. He mentioned something about new rules.

Have a look at
http://technology.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,329470634-117422,00.html
which explains the problem. It's not happy news.

The collection agencies are numpties of the highest order. They seem
determined to protect their own revenues at the expense of producers
and consumers of recorded music - that is, the artists and listeners.
I sincerely hope that the entire licensing model breaks down
completely under the pressure to make music more widely available.

Mark
--
Visit: http://www.ukcommunityradio.info - Community Radio in the UK
Listen: http://www.goodge.co.uk/files/dweeb.mp3 - you'll love it!

Internet radio in the UK
 

"Molly Mockford" wrote in message
...
At 09:04:00 on Fri, 5 May 2006, Sanddancer
wrote in :

On Fri, 5 May 2006 09:53:09 +0100, "Agamemnon"
wrote:

If I were to broadcast from the UK from my own server and people were
listening in the the UK and US who gets paid for what. What do the BBC
pay
for example ?

Our local radio station lets people listen over the Internet. There's
a late night phone in program that I listen to if I'm in the car and
the presenter mentioned that the rules have just changed. Apperently
they're now going to broadcast on the Internet a day last so they can
take all the music out of it. He mentioned something about new rules.

Have a look at
http://technology.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,329470634-117422,00.html which
explains the problem. It's not happy news.

(That page is the "printable version" of the Guardian's story, as the main
page doesn't seem to work in Firefox.)

Is the PPL's extortionate scheme legally enforceable if I use a US based
server. In fact is it legally enforceable at all. Has parliament approved it
? I don't see why they should have to be paid royalties if US broadcasters
don't have to pay them and I don't see why they can't just charge a
percentage of advertising revenue for internet only broadcasters since the
fee they are charging now is 20 times higher than terrestrial broadcasters
would have to pay for the same number of listeners and 1000 times higher
than you could possibly make from internet advertising considering most of
your listeners would not even be in your home town and there would be no way
to restrict the service to just that. Further more what use is a PPL licence
if the music that you are going to be broadcasting is no covered by their
jurisdiction anyway. PPL is a British organisation so what right has it got
to collect royalties for listeners listening outside of the UK or to non-UK
music.

--
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

Internet radio in the UK
 

On Sat, 6 May 2006 17:41:35 +0100, Agamemnon put finger to keyboard
and typed:


Is the PPL's extortionate scheme legally enforceable if I use a US based
server.

Yes, because you are based in the UK (assuming that you are).

In fact is it legally enforceable at all.

Yes, because the actual copyright holders have delegated their
enforcement rights to PPL/MCPS/PRS/etc.

Has parliament approved it

They don't need to. It's a purely commercial transaction. If they sued
you, it would be a civil case not a criminal case.

? I don't see why they should have to be paid royalties if US broadcasters
don't have to pay them and I don't see why they can't just charge a
percentage of advertising revenue for internet only broadcasters since the
fee they are charging now is 20 times higher than terrestrial broadcasters
would have to pay for the same number of listeners and 1000 times higher
than you could possibly make from internet advertising considering most of
your listeners would not even be in your home town and there would be no way
to restrict the service to just that.

Those are all very reasonable arguments. But reasonable arguments are
not what the collection agencies are interested in.

Further more what use is a PPL licence
if the music that you are going to be broadcasting is no covered by their
jurisdiction anyway.

If you're only broadcasting music that isn't covered by the collection
agencies then you don't need a licence. That's always been the case,
no matter what medium you are broadcasting in. But there isn't a lot
that isn't covered by the collection agencies - anything that's
commercially released in the UK almost certainly will be, so to avoid
the need for a licence you would need to stick to independently
released material or stuff that's never been released at all (even on
import) here. (Or, if you're big enough, you can negotiate directly
with the rights holders and bypass the collection agencies - but you
need to be a very big organisation to manage that).

PPL is a British organisation so what right has it got
to collect royalties for listeners listening outside of the UK or to non-UK
music.

It's the location of the broadcaster, not the listeners, that is what
matters.

Mark
--
Visit: http://names.orangehedgehog.com - British surname distribution profiles
Listen: http://www.goodge.co.uk/files/dweeb.mp3 - you'll love it!

Internet radio in the UK
 

"Mark Goodge" wrote in message
house.net...
On Sat, 6 May 2006 17:41:35 +0100, Agamemnon put finger to keyboard
and typed:


Is the PPL's extortionate scheme legally enforceable if I use a US based
server.

Yes, because you are based in the UK (assuming that you are).

In fact is it legally enforceable at all.

Yes, because the actual copyright holders have delegated their
enforcement rights to PPL/MCPS/PRS/etc.

Has parliament approved it

They don't need to. It's a purely commercial transaction. If they sued
you, it would be a civil case not a criminal case.

? I don't see why they should have to be paid royalties if US broadcasters
don't have to pay them and I don't see why they can't just charge a
percentage of advertising revenue for internet only broadcasters since the
fee they are charging now is 20 times higher than terrestrial broadcasters
would have to pay for the same number of listeners and 1000 times higher
than you could possibly make from internet advertising considering most of
your listeners would not even be in your home town and there would be no
way
to restrict the service to just that.

Those are all very reasonable arguments. But reasonable arguments are
not what the collection agencies are interested in.

Further more what use is a PPL licence
if the music that you are going to be broadcasting is no covered by their
jurisdiction anyway.

If you're only broadcasting music that isn't covered by the collection
agencies then you don't need a licence. That's always been the case,
no matter what medium you are broadcasting in. But there isn't a lot
that isn't covered by the collection agencies - anything that's

I am talking about the fact that their jurisdiction does not extend to
Europe or the US therefore they should have no right to charge me for
European and EU listeners. If I were to transmit music on a satellite to the
US it would be the US copyright agencies I would be paying not those of the
UK.

commercially released in the UK almost certainly will be, so to avoid
the need for a licence you would need to stick to independently
released material or stuff that's never been released at all (even on
import) here. (Or, if you're big enough, you can negotiate directly
with the rights holders and bypass the collection agencies - but you
need to be a very big organisation to manage that).

PPL is a British organisation so what right has it got
to collect royalties for listeners listening outside of the UK or to
non-UK
music.

It's the location of the broadcaster, not the listeners, that is what
matters.

See my example about satellites. Astra is based in the Netherlands but Sky
does not pay the Dutch copyright agencies since it doesn't broadcast its UK
content to Holland. I should not have to pay PPL royalties for listeners
outside of the UK especially when the US rates are lower or nonexistent in
the case of performance copyright. It my server were in the US and most of
my listeners are in the US and lets suppose UK access is blocked and my
advertisers are US based what jurisdiction does PPL have ?


Mark
--
Visit: http://names.orangehedgehog.com - British surname distribution
profiles
Listen: http://www.goodge.co.uk/files/dweeb.mp3 - you'll love it!

Internet radio in the UK
 

On Sat, 6 May 2006 21:18:33 +0100, Agamemnon put finger to keyboard
and typed:


"Mark Goodge" wrote in message
shouse.net...

Further more what use is a PPL licence
if the music that you are going to be broadcasting is no covered by their
jurisdiction anyway.

If you're only broadcasting music that isn't covered by the collection
agencies then you don't need a licence. That's always been the case,
no matter what medium you are broadcasting in. But there isn't a lot
that isn't covered by the collection agencies - anything that's

I am talking about the fact that their jurisdiction does not extend to
Europe or the US therefore they should have no right to charge me for
European and EU listeners. If I were to transmit music on a satellite to the
US it would be the US copyright agencies I would be paying not those of the
UK.

if you were solely a US broadcaster, then yes. But if you were running
a UK-based Internet station then you wouldn't be.

commercially released in the UK almost certainly will be, so to avoid
the need for a licence you would need to stick to independently
released material or stuff that's never been released at all (even on
import) here. (Or, if you're big enough, you can negotiate directly
with the rights holders and bypass the collection agencies - but you
need to be a very big organisation to manage that).

PPL is a British organisation so what right has it got
to collect royalties for listeners listening outside of the UK or to
non-UK
music.

It's the location of the broadcaster, not the listeners, that is what
matters.

See my example about satellites. Astra is based in the Netherlands but Sky
does not pay the Dutch copyright agencies since it doesn't broadcast its UK
content to Holland.

Astra isn't a broadcaster, any more than the company which manages
terrestrial transmitters in the UK is a broacaster. Sky (and any other
satellite company) is the broadcaster, and they pay according to their
own location and licence.

I should not have to pay PPL royalties for listeners
outside of the UK especially when the US rates are lower or nonexistent in
the case of performance copyright. It my server were in the US and most of
my listeners are in the US and lets suppose UK access is blocked and my
advertisers are US based what jurisdiction does PPL have ?

If you broadcast solely to the US from equipment located in the US,
then you are a US broadcaster that just happens to be under UK
owwnership. So you'd come under US licensing and charging systems, not
UK ones.

Mark
--
Visit: http://www.FridayFun.net - jokes, lyrics and ringtones
Listen: http://www.goodge.co.uk/files/dweeb.mp3 - you'll love it!

Internet radio in the UK
 

In article ,
Agamemnon wrote:

[Snip]

See my example about satellites. Astra is based in the Netherlands

actually Luxemburg

--
From KT24 - in drought-ridden Surrey

Using a RISC OS5 computer

Internet radio in the UK
 

"Mark Goodge" wrote in message
house.net...
On Sat, 6 May 2006 21:18:33 +0100, Agamemnon put finger to keyboard
and typed:




I should not have to pay PPL royalties for listeners
outside of the UK especially when the US rates are lower or nonexistent in
the case of performance copyright. It my server were in the US and most of
my listeners are in the US and lets suppose UK access is blocked and my
advertisers are US based what jurisdiction does PPL have ?

If you broadcast solely to the US from equipment located in the US,
then you are a US broadcaster that just happens to be under UK
owwnership. So you'd come under US licensing and charging systems, not
UK ones.

What if you were to broadcast to the US, UK and Europe and the rest of the
world and most of your listeners were in the US. This what I expect will
eventually happen after you begin broadcasting even if the internet
broadcaster in located in the UK since the US is where most internet users
are located so I do not see why PPL should have any jurisdiction over non-UK
listeners and start demanding extortionate royalties on a per listener basis
especially if I offer to pay the US copyright agency which does not charge
performance royalties at all what it wants. Doesn't the UK or EU have laws
to stop extortion like this ? PPL does not even charge this extortion fee to
internet broadcasters who have a terrestrial licence so it is also
responsible for discrimination which should be against EU law.

Are there any unions of internet broadcasters that could fight PPL in the
courts ?


Mark