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HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm
-- Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
Uh, Wes,
How's about adding some more fields to that chart, like... "Appliance" Tivo - Yes MythTV - No "Time to install/setup" Tivo - 10 Minutes MythTv - infinite based on knowledge. No less than a few hours (what is your time worth). Actually, it is probably never "complete". "Cost with cards that HDMI output" Tivo - included MythTV - Variable based on Video card, but sure not included in those el-cheapo cards "Automatic Updates" Tivo - Yes MythTv - No, and updates needed from different sources "Remote Control" Tivo - Well known and well designed peanut remote MythTv - no standard, needs a universal remote (did you factor in the cost of your remote, and the time to set it up?) BTW - how well does your remote work for turning off those PC monitors? There's more... As I've said before, Wes. You arguments are disingenuous at best. I've got nothing against MythTv, just your presentation that it is a simple, slap it in, better and cheaper than Tivo attitude. Jim "Wes Newell" wrote in message news:[email protected] http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm -- Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
* Wes Newell wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm Quote: "This comparison is based on info available today as the HD Tivo series 3 has yet to be released...." For his next trick he compares Chupacabra to the Abominable Snowman. What a dolt. -- David |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 16:20:53 +0000, Scooby wrote:
Uh, Wes, How's about adding some more fields to that chart, like... "Appliance" Tivo - Yes MythTV - No Interesting. You find a Tivo computer to be an aplliance, and a MythTV computer not to be an appliance. Sorry, I just don't agree with that. Did you happen to miss the very first line? System Type. "Time to install/setup" Tivo - 10 Minutes MythTv - infinite based on knowledge. No less than a few hours (what is your time worth). Actually, it is probably never "complete". You can't setup a tivo in 10 minutes. Perhaps you don't remember the first one you had. Granted it's not rocket science, but It's a lot more time consuming than that. And how long does the data download take over the phone? Hours. There's configuration time with it just as there is with MythTV. And fwiw, basic setup for mythtv is as simple as loading 1 cd onto the drive using knoppmyth. Sure, it takes more time overall, but it also will do a lot more. "Cost with cards that HDMI output" Tivo - included MythTV - Variable based on Video card, but sure not included in those el-cheapo cards Right, I had to pay $30 for the video card, plus a $10 adapter for DVI to HDMI. But wait. I don't need hdmi. I don't even use the DVI port (which tivo doesn't have). I use the VGA port (that the Tivo doesn't have either) to get HDTV on a $69 1600x1200 monitor. iwth the one backend cost of about $600 and one frontend cost of about $250, including monitors, I've got 2 HDTV's with a combined capabilty of recording 4 shows at once. What would this ewtup cost you using Tivos, and the cheapest HDTV monitor. I'd estimate that the HDTV monitors alone would cost you $800. Now add 2 HD tivos to that and you're up to about $2400. No thanks.:-) "Automatic Updates" Tivo - Yes MythTv - No, and updates needed from different sources Control of updates?:-) "Remote Control" Tivo - Well known and well designed peanut remote MythTv - no standard, needs a universal remote (did you factor in the cost of your remote, and the time to set it up?) BTW - how well does your remote work for turning off those PC monitors? While I do have a remote for it, I chose to spend $10 for a remote KB and mouse that can control every aspect of the system. Do you really want me to get into what else you can do with a Linux PC that you can't do with the Tivo? There's more... As I've said before, Wes. You arguments are disingenuous at best. I've got nothing against MythTv, just your presentation that it is a simple, slap it in, better and cheaper than Tivo attitude. And in my opinion, it is. You're more than welcome to yours. That's why they are opinions. And I didn't have any arguements in my review. I only presented facts . I don't see you claiming there are any mistakes in it. It's a free world, if you don't like my comparison you are more than welcome to create your own website and... Sorry, you can't do that with the tivo can you. Yes, the website is running on this machine, as is MythTV 's backend server, and a FTP server, and I'm using a news reader to reply to you now on it too, with a game I've got paused in the background along with frontend that I paused until I finish this. Oh, and I can pause live TV for hours too.:-) You like Tivo. That's your choice. Probably good for you. "Wes Newell" wrote in message news:[email protected] http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm -- Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php -- Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 22:08:50 +0000, SINNER wrote:
* Wes Newell wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo: http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm Quote: "This comparison is based on info available today as the HD Tivo series 3 has yet to be released...." For his next trick he compares Chupacabra to the Abominable Snowman. What a dolt. So Randy S. and I are both dolts. From you, I consider that a compliment.:-) -- Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
Wes Newell ) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
Right, I had to pay $30 for the video card, plus a $10 adapter for DVI to HDMI. But wait. I don't need hdmi. Because you don't watch recordings on a TV, which is what 99% of people do. I don't even use the DVI port (which tivo doesn't have). Correct, the Series 3 will have an HDMI port instead of DVI. The Series 3 will also have HDCP, which allows you to connect it to an HDTV, which will be how 99% of people watch HD recordings. I use the VGA port (that the Tivo doesn't have either) to get HDTV on a $69 1600x1200 monitor. Let us know when you get your system hooked up to a real TV, like 99% of TiVo users. I've got 2 HDTV's Actually, you have two computer systems. Most people don't consider a 19" computer monitor to be an "HDTV". I'm sure both the people that could watch the Super Bowl on it would be happy with the picture. What would this ewtup cost you using Tivos, and the cheapest HDTV monitor. I'd estimate that the HDTV monitors alone would cost you $800. Well, you could get a very nice 20" 1600x1200 Dell LCD (that can actually display all 1600x1200 pixels, unlike your monitor) for less than $500 the next time they go on sale. Or, you could get a 19" 1280x1024 (which *still* has more real resolution than your monitor) for $300. Since you only need one display for the TiVo, either of these would do fine. -- Jeff Rife | | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/Dilbert/ActionItem.gif |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
Once upon a time, Wes Newell said:
http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm I don't see the part where you tell that MythTV can only record broadcast network over-the-air HD, while the CableCard TiVo will be able to record many more HD channels from digital cable (HDNet/HDNet Movies, ESPN/ESPN2 HD, HBO HD, Showtime HD, Discover HD Theater, Universal HD, TNT HD, to name a few). OTA HD may be enough for you but the majority of TV viewers want more than the broadcast networks (well over half the US TV owning households have cable and/or satellite). Due to CableCard DRM, an open source system like MythTV will never be able to record those channels digitally. The only possible way would be with an expensive real-time HD encoder per stream (and then you'll get decode/reencode artifacting, not the orginal digital signal like a TiVo). -- Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
Wes Newell wrote:
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 22:08:50 +0000, SINNER wrote: * Wes Newell wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo: http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm Quote: "This comparison is based on info available today as the HD Tivo series 3 has yet to be released...." For his next trick he compares Chupacabra to the Abominable Snowman. What a dolt. So Randy S. and I are both dolts. From you, I consider that a compliment.:-) Well, Wes, you must admit that the comparison exercise that you and I went through is largely speculative based only on 3rd hand reports of a prototype of a yet to be released product. I have no problem admitting that the comparison is early, speculative, and quite possibly incorrect in minor and/or significant details. Randy S. |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
You can't setup a tivo in 10 minutes. Perhaps you don't remember the first
one you had. Granted it's not rocket science, but It's a lot more time consuming than that. And how long does the data download take over the phone? Hours. Well, it depends on what you mean by 'set up'. It takes 2-3 minutes to plug the cables, about 5 for the S2 to boot and 5 to enter the basic data. Add another 5 for the HME including the two thumbed entry of the WEP entry on a Tivo remote. Does MythTV have power aware functions? The Tivo is ~ 40 Watts * 30 days * 24 hours *$0.12/KWH = $3.40/Month for power. If Myth can't go to sleep, figure on 5X that (which would put you right in the range of the monthly script fee). I'll probably build one when I retire an old machine, but I can't imaging my 6 year old will be able to operate it like the Tivo. It would qualify as a fun project. Oh and then theres that power thing.... |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
Does MythTV have power aware functions? The Tivo is ~ 40 Watts * 30 days * 24 hours *$0.12/KWH = $3.40/Month for power. If Myth can't go to sleep, figure on 5X that (which would put you right in the range of the monthly script fee). I gotta disagree here. Even if it can't go to sleep, an AMD-based PC with a medium-fast CPU will only use about 120W, which would be about 3x the TiVo. And, I'll bet anything that the Series 3 will be closer to 70W consumption. -- Jeff Rife | | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/Sherman...enLemmings.gif |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
On 2006-02-10, Jeff Rife wrote:
) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo: Does MythTV have power aware functions? The Tivo is ~ 40 Watts * 30 days * 24 hours *$0.12/KWH = $3.40/Month for power. If Myth can't go to sleep, figure on 5X that (which would put you right in the range of the monthly script fee). I gotta disagree here. Even if it can't go to sleep, an AMD-based PC with a medium-fast CPU will only use about 120W, which would be about 3x the TiVo. And, I'll bet anything that the Series 3 will be closer to 70W consumption. On the TiVo side, the 40W listed here may be way high too. I don't know what a TiVo2 runs at but a TiVo1 runs closer to 10-15W (CPU takes 1W, hard drive peaks at 8W, etc.) -- This is my .sig |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 18:41:11 -0500, Jeff Rife wrote:
Well, you could get a very nice 20" 1600x1200 Dell LCD (that can actually display all 1600x1200 pixels, unlike your monitor) for less than $500 the next time they go on sale. Or, you could get a 19" 1280x1024 (which *still* has more real resolution than your monitor) for $300. Are you drunk? I said my $69 19" CRT monitor runs at 1600x1200 non-interlaced. Why in the hell would I want to spend $300 for one with less capability. My old 17" that's probably only worth $25 now does 1280x1024. And i don't want an LCD monitor or TV of any kind, even if the price were the same as the crt. -- Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 00:11:17 +0000, Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, Wes Newell said: http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm I don't see the part where you tell that MythTV can only record broadcast network over-the-air HD, while the CableCard TiVo will be able to record many more HD channels from digital cable Then you can't read. Cable card support ? Yes (HDNet/HDNet Movies, ESPN/ESPN2 HD, HBO HD, Showtime HD, Discover HD Theater, Universal HD, TNT HD, to name a few). OTA HD may be enough for you but the majority I also didn't mention that many of these premium channels are available OTA, which would have been in the MythTV's favor. of TV viewers want more than the broadcast networks (well over half the US TV owning households have cable and/or satellite). And from a survey I did, the only reason the majority do have cable or sat is because they don't know how to get a good clear picture with an antenna. 3 out of 4 I asked said the only reason for havingt pay tv was because they couldn't get good recption otherwise. Due to CableCard DRM, an open source system like MythTV will never be able to record those channels digitally. Not that it matters to me, but you are mistaken. Maybe you haven't seen the USDTV ads running, offering many premium channels OTA. The only possible way would be with an expensive real-time HD encoder per stream (and then you'll get decode/reencode artifacting, not the orginal digital signal like a TiVo). WTF are you talking about. Digital signals are broadcast alreay encoded in mpeg2. There's no encoding required. The digital stream is simply saved to disk. And for your info, OTA HD gives a much better signal than the compressed crap you get from cable or sat. If you don't know what you're talking about it's best to keep quiet and not look the fool. If you hook up an antenna to an HD tivo and compare the signals, you'll see the OTA picture is a better quality. That's been documented for some time now. -- Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 20:09:05 -0500, Randy S. wrote:
Wes Newell wrote: On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 22:08:50 +0000, SINNER wrote: * Wes Newell wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo: http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm Quote: "This comparison is based on info available today as the HD Tivo series 3 has yet to be released...." For his next trick he compares Chupacabra to the Abominable Snowman. What a dolt. So Randy S. and I are both dolts. From you, I consider that a compliment.:-) Well, Wes, you must admit that the comparison exercise that you and I went through is largely speculative based only on 3rd hand reports of a prototype of a yet to be released product. I have no problem admitting that the comparison is early, speculative, and quite possibly incorrect in minor and/or significant details. You don't really believe that. If the product they displayed at CES wasn't very close to the final product, they wouldn't have shown it. And if there are major changes, I wouldn't look for a release this year. besides, comparisons between products like this is done all the time. That's one reason it was displayed. To show people what they had. You and I both know the real reason behind the flames. -- Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 17:21:13 -0800, zafdor wrote:
Does MythTV have power aware functions? The Tivo is ~ 40 Watts * 30 days * 24 hours *$0.12/KWH = $3.40/Month for power. If Myth can't go to sleep, figure on 5X that (which would put you right in the range of the monthly script fee). To be honest I haven't figured out what the power cost of my PC is. For me it doesn't matter as one has been running 24/7 for at least 10 years. My current system runs at low speed (800MHz 1.3v) anyway, so power consumption is low at that. The frontend machines don't need to run at all unless you are watching TV, so that's 0 consumption for them while the HD tivos you have to have in those locations will be running 24/7. And of course, you don't have to run a MythTV system 24/7 if you don't want to. It actually has a power down feature.:-) I'll probably build one when I retire an old machine, but I can't imaging my 6 year old will be able to operate it like the Tivo. It would qualify as a fun project. Oh and then theres that power thing.... You're right, It's easier to operate than a Tivo. And a frontend machine for your sons room would use less power than a tivo, assuming he turns it off or unless he watches TV 24/7. -- Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
Mike Hunt ) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
On the TiVo side, the 40W listed here may be way high too. I don't know what a TiVo2 runs at but a TiVo1 runs closer to 10-15W (CPU takes 1W, hard drive peaks at 8W, etc.) It depends on the power supply. I haven't looked at it in detail, but there isn't as much need for a switching power supply because the load is well known in advance. Thus, efficiency might not be as good as a typical PC power supply. ISTR somebody measured their TiVo (using a clamp-on wattmeter) at over 30W. Ah, here's a resource that says 29W: http://www.energynucleus.com/index.p...saving-energy/ -- Jeff Rife | "I don't have to be Ray Liotta: movie star, | anymore. I can be Ray Liotta: Maya's boyfriend. | All I want to do is regular, boring, ordinary | couple things." | "Then you, sir, have hit the soul-mate lottery." | -- Ray Liotta and Nina Van Horn, "Just Shoot Me" |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 05:07:06 +0000, Mike Hunt wrote:
On 2006-02-10, Jeff Rife wrote: ) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo: Does MythTV have power aware functions? The Tivo is ~ 40 Watts * 30 days * 24 hours *$0.12/KWH = $3.40/Month for power. If Myth can't go to sleep, figure on 5X that (which would put you right in the range of the monthly script fee). I gotta disagree here. Even if it can't go to sleep, an AMD-based PC with a medium-fast CPU will only use about 120W, which would be about 3x the TiVo. And, I'll bet anything that the Series 3 will be closer to 70W consumption. On the TiVo side, the 40W listed here may be way high too. I don't know what a TiVo2 runs at but a TiVo1 runs closer to 10-15W (CPU takes 1W, hard drive peaks at 8W, etc.) The HD Tivo isn't a series 1. And it's going to draw a lot more current than the S1. In the end, the difference in power consumption one way or the other isn't going to matter much. While Tivos will be left on 24/7, MythTV boxes can be turned off most of the time. my frontend machine only runs about 4 hours a day, so even if it used 5 times as much power as the HD Tivo, it would consume less overall. I actually save more money running MythTV since my server ran 24/7 anyway and has for close to 15 years (excluding upgrades). Now I don't have the Tivo running 24/7. I also don't have my other DVR running 24/7, and I also don't have the 2 vcr's running 24/7 either. Now when I look at it like that, Tivo's are a lot more expensive to run poer wise. And I'd have to run 2 HD tivos for the same recording capability I have now. Current electric cost for MythTV is 0. Cost of 2 HD tivos running 24/7=? -- Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
The HD Tivo isn't a series 1. And it's going to draw a lot more current than the S1. In the end, the difference in power consumption one way or the other isn't going to matter much. While Tivos will be left on 24/7, MythTV boxes can be turned off most of the time. my frontend machine only runs about 4 hours a day, so even if it used 5 times as much power as the HD Tivo, it would consume less overall. I actually save more money running MythTV since my server ran 24/7 anyway and has for close to 15 years (excluding upgrades). Now I don't have the Tivo running 24/7. I also don't have my other DVR running 24/7, and I also don't have the 2 vcr's running 24/7 either. Now when I look at it like that, Tivo's are a lot more expensive to run poer wise. And I'd have to run 2 HD tivos for the same recording capability I have now. Current electric cost for MythTV is 0. Cost of 2 HD tivos running 24/7=? Wes, now you're biasing again. Can your Mythtv setup run without your backend server? We both know it can't. So discounting the backend power is disingenuous. Just because it's running anyway doesn't allow you to discount it. If you want to be fair, figure out the percentage of use that goes to Mythtv (and I mean percentage of *use* not of capability, total percentage should add up to 100%). Then include that percentage of total power used in the consideration. Power's probably not a big consideration anyway, particularly if both devices can be setup with low power modes. Randy S. |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
Well, Wes, you must admit that the comparison exercise that you and I
went through is largely speculative based only on 3rd hand reports of a prototype of a yet to be released product. I have no problem admitting that the comparison is early, speculative, and quite possibly incorrect in minor and/or significant details. You don't really believe that. If the product they displayed at CES wasn't very close to the final product, they wouldn't have shown it. And if there are major changes, I wouldn't look for a release this year. besides, comparisons between products like this is done all the time. That's one reason it was displayed. To show people what they had. You and I both know the real reason behind the flames. Wes, in another thread I had someone flame me for citing the cableCARD standard because it wasn't a standard (because supposedly standards that aren't ratified yet aren't "standards"). Now you are trying to say that there's nothing wrong with making a complete review of a product way before it's ever released. There *are* middle grounds here. It is possible to speculate and draw conclusions on things that are not yet complete. But it is also important to acknowledge that those things *aren't* complete and could change. I don't have a problem admitting that while still speculating for the academic exercise of it. Why is that so hard for you to do? Randy S. |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
Wes Newell wrote:
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 00:11:17 +0000, Chris Adams wrote: Once upon a time, Wes Newell said: http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm I don't see the part where you tell that MythTV can only record broadcast network over-the-air HD, while the CableCard TiVo will be able to record many more HD channels from digital cable Then you can't read. Cable card support ? Yes Wes, I've already pointed out your bias in that statement. (HDNet/HDNet Movies, ESPN/ESPN2 HD, HBO HD, Showtime HD, Discover HD Theater, Universal HD, TNT HD, to name a few). OTA HD may be enough for you but the majority I also didn't mention that many of these premium channels are available OTA, which would have been in the MythTV's favor. No, Wes the HD channels he stated above are *not* broadcast channels. I.e. they aren't sent OTA. Your beloved USDTV which you've never used, is only available in *4* western cities in the US, and only supplies the broadcast networks in HD anyway (notice all of the above list is HD?). Plus USDTV raises my suspicions, what type of service provides so little information on their website, they don't even list a channel lineup !? On top of that, it's not like you can integrate it into mythTV, you'd have to some sort of lash up with IR blasters which would negate many of Mythtv's advantages. of TV viewers want more than the broadcast networks (well over half the US TV owning households have cable and/or satellite). And from a survey I did, the only reason the majority do have cable or sat is because they don't know how to get a good clear picture with an antenna. 3 out of 4 I asked said the only reason for havingt pay tv was because they couldn't get good recption otherwise. Please show us the source of this survey, along with proof of it's statistical accuracy. Asking 4 acquaintances does not count as a survey. How geographically diverse was this survey, since location is so critical to reception? Did you ask people from all areas of the country and in all types of markets? Fort Worth/Dallas is hardly representative you know? In fact, surprisingly, it seems to have one of the highest availability of OTA ATSC signals of anywhere in the country. Do you think that might be skewing your perceptions somewhat? Due to CableCard DRM, an open source system like MythTV will never be able to record those channels digitally. Not that it matters to me, but you are mistaken. Maybe you haven't seen the USDTV ads running, offering many premium channels OTA. but none in HD. We've already been down this road. The only possible way would be with an expensive real-time HD encoder per stream (and then you'll get decode/reencode artifacting, not the orginal digital signal like a TiVo). WTF are you talking about. Digital signals are broadcast alreay encoded in mpeg2. There's no encoding required. The digital stream is simply saved to disk. And for your info, OTA HD gives a much better signal than the compressed crap you get from cable or sat. If you don't know what you're talking about it's best to keep quiet and not look the fool. If you hook up an antenna to an HD tivo and compare the signals, you'll see the OTA picture is a better quality. That's been documented for some time now. He's not talking about OTA, he's talking about reencoding a signal from a source like your oft-quoted USDTV. Since you can't pull a native digital signal from USDTV's required settop box, you'll have to reencode the analog signal. Randy S. |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
Now when I look at it like that, Tivo's are a lot
more expensive to run poer wise. Try not to take this as a flame, but now you're just being silly! Most people do not have a server running 24/7, so it's hardly a fair comparison so say thay power is being burned anyways. You can turn a tivo off also and make its power zero when its not bing used (with an X10 lamp module). If there were a mythtv that supported foxton, this would be ideal, keep the thing low power until you see on the clock you need to record, then come on. Until then you will likely need to have that power eating CPU running all the time and you will never approach the low power of dedicated designed hardware. You will also never approach the base manufacturing cost of a Tivo by purchasing PC parts. Tivo no doubt loses money selling a box for $50, but I do not think its ver much ($10-$20). If you really want an interesting project to share with the open source community, hack the tivo hardware to use a free subscription service, heck I'll sign up right now as your first customer! To Jeff, Have you actually measured the input power to this machine? If its calculated, can you share the breakdown? I still have an 8 year old Matrox for video in my desktop at home, but I recollect putting in some power eaters in my kids PCs. How much power do you need to burn in the video card to get 1080i? The CPU is probably the biggest thing to watch out for, maybe the way to go is to put a laptop CPU on the MB(?). Even a lazy celeron will cost you 50+ watts on the input power (more then the whole Tivo S2). I can't imaging the tuner cards are more then a few watts, disks are ~10-12W on your input cord. If mythtv could master the power problem, I would spend $ on hardware to build one, until then it would only be a recreational project on a box headed for the junk heap. Had a buddy who set up a POWER2 based server at him home stuffed will small SCSI drives he got from ebay. He no longer runs it 24/7 since we calculated it burns $40/month in power! |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 07:16:23 -0500, Randy S. wrote:
Well, Wes, you must admit that the comparison exercise that you and I went through is largely speculative based only on 3rd hand reports of a prototype of a yet to be released product. I have no problem admitting that the comparison is early, speculative, and quite possibly incorrect in minor and/or significant details. You don't really believe that. If the product they displayed at CES wasn't very close to the final product, they wouldn't have shown it. And if there are major changes, I wouldn't look for a release this year. besides, comparisons between products like this is done all the time. That's one reason it was displayed. To show people what they had. You and I both know the real reason behind the flames. Wes, in another thread I had someone flame me for citing the cableCARD standard because it wasn't a standard (because supposedly standards that aren't ratified yet aren't "standards"). Now you are trying to say that there's nothing wrong with making a complete review of a product way before it's ever released. I didn't review how well it worked, only that it's going to support cable card. If you think it's not going to I can say no in the review. Then others can come back and bitch. Get over it. There *are* middle grounds here. It is possible to speculate and draw conclusions on things that are not yet complete. But it is also important to acknowledge that those things *aren't* complete and could change. I don't have a problem admitting that while still speculating for the academic exercise of it. Why is that so hard for you to do? And why must you type so much. My review states that it's based on info as of Feb 2006. How long of a disclaimer do you want me to type? IMO, there won't be any changes to the HDT tivo between now and production. You're welcome to your opinion. Only time will tell. -- Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 07:31:02 -0500, Randy S. wrote:
Wes Newell wrote: On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 00:11:17 +0000, Chris Adams wrote: Once upon a time, Wes Newell said: http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm I don't see the part where you tell that MythTV can only record broadcast network over-the-air HD, while the CableCard TiVo will be able to record many more HD channels from digital cable Then you can't read. Cable card support ? Yes Wes, I've already pointed out your bias in that statement. There's nothing but facts there. There's only 2 answers. I don't know if there will ever be PC support of cable card (although some here seem to think so), and that Tivo will support Cable card. Now where is the ****ing bias? (HDNet/HDNet Movies, ESPN/ESPN2 HD, HBO HD, Showtime HD, Discover HD Theater, Universal HD, TNT HD, to name a few). OTA HD may be enough for you but the majority I also didn't mention that many of these premium channels are available OTA, which would have been in the MythTV's favor. No, Wes the HD channels he stated above are *not* broadcast channels. And I didn't say they were. I'm tired of this... I.e. they aren't sent OTA. Your beloved USDTV which you've never used, is only available in *4* western cities in the US, and only supplies the broadcast networks in HD anyway (notice all of the above list is HD?). Plus USDTV raises my suspicions, what type of service provides so little information on their website, they don't even list a channel lineup !? On top of that, it's not like you can integrate it into mythTV, you'd have to some sort of lash up with IR blasters which would negate many of Mythtv's advantages. Why is everyone bringing up crap that doesn't even pertain to the review? of TV viewers want more than the broadcast networks (well over half the US TV owning households have cable and/or satellite). And from a survey I did, the only reason the majority do have cable or sat is because they don't know how to get a good clear picture with an antenna. 3 out of 4 I asked said the only reason for havingt pay tv was because they couldn't get good recption otherwise. Please show us the source of this survey, along with proof of it's statistical accuracy. That's preprietary info. Asking 4 acquaintances does not count as a survey. Why not? 4 or 4,000, 000. It still a survey. The margin fo error is greater though. How geographically diverse was this survey, since location is so critical to reception? Strictly Dallas area. Due to CableCard DRM, an open source system like MythTV will never be able to record those channels digitally. Not that it matters to me, but you are mistaken. Maybe you haven't seen the USDTV ads running, offering many premium channels OTA. but none in HD. We've already been down this road. So what? They are still premium channels OTA. The only possible way would be with an expensive real-time HD encoder per stream (and then you'll get decode/reencode artifacting, not the orginal digital signal like a TiVo). WTF are you talking about. Digital signals are broadcast alreay encoded in mpeg2. There's no encoding required. The digital stream is simply saved to disk. And for your info, OTA HD gives a much better signal than the compressed crap you get from cable or sat. If you don't know what you're talking about it's best to keep quiet and not look the fool. If you hook up an antenna to an HD tivo and compare the signals, you'll see the OTA picture is a better quality. That's been documented for some time now. He's not talking about OTA, he's talking about reencoding a signal from a source like your oft-quoted USDTV. Since you can't pull a native digital signal from USDTV's required settop box, you'll have to reencode the analog signal. Accoring to USDTV, you can. I told them exactly what I had and they confirmed I could record them. I don't know and don't care. I think I've made that obvious many times. Again, way away from the comparison where USDTV isn't even mentioned. -- Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
"Wes Newell" wrote in message
news:[email protected] On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 16:20:53 +0000, Scooby wrote: Uh, Wes, How's about adding some more fields to that chart, like... "Appliance" Tivo - Yes MythTV - No Interesting. You find a Tivo computer to be an aplliance, and a MythTV computer not to be an appliance. Sorry, I just don't agree with that. Did you happen to miss the very first line? System Type. Apparently you don't understand what the computer industry considers an appliance. That is an all in one turn-key device that doesn't need a custom build, such as a Tivo. A build it yourself box, such as MythTV does not qualify. "Time to install/setup" Tivo - 10 Minutes MythTv - infinite based on knowledge. No less than a few hours (what is your time worth). Actually, it is probably never "complete". You can't setup a tivo in 10 minutes. Perhaps you don't remember the first one you had. Granted it's not rocket science, but It's a lot more time consuming than that. And how long does the data download take over the phone? Hours. There's configuration time with it just as there is with MythTV. And fwiw, basic setup for mythtv is as simple as loading 1 cd onto the drive using knoppmyth. Sure, it takes more time overall, but it also will do a lot more. Okay, 10 minutes may be a little low, but not much. I've setup a handful of these things and it is a pretty quick setup. If the initial phone call needs to do a big down load, you can just go away and come back. The setup in MythTV I am referring to is research of products to use, ordering those products, unpacking them and building your system, downloading the O/S, downloading MythTV, burning CD's for installation, running the installation procedures, configuring MythTV to work with your devices, troubleshooting device driver issues. Now, you've made it well known that you had some video card issues. I'd really like to know the total time you've put into all of the above. I'll say again - what is your time worth? Maybe your time isn't worth much, but I'd rather pay a little more an appliance than to fight through that. I've actually considered building a MythTV box myself, but more for a learning experience and to evaluate it. I certainly wouldn't do that to save a few bucks and neither would most people that are just trying to improve their viewing experience. "Cost with cards that HDMI output" Tivo - included MythTV - Variable based on Video card, but sure not included in those el-cheapo cards Right, I had to pay $30 for the video card, plus a $10 adapter for DVI to HDMI. But wait. I don't need hdmi. I don't even use the DVI port (which tivo doesn't have). I use the VGA port (that the Tivo doesn't have either) to get HDTV on a $69 1600x1200 monitor. iwth the one backend cost of about $600 and one frontend cost of about $250, including monitors, I've got 2 HDTV's with a combined capabilty of recording 4 shows at once. What would this ewtup cost you using Tivos, and the cheapest HDTV monitor. I'd estimate that the HDTV monitors alone would cost you $800. Now add 2 HD tivos to that and you're up to about $2400. No thanks.:-) Well, Wes. I just think you are really cheapening the experience. Most people that would pay for a device such as a Tivo or a MythTV box are trying to increase their viewing pleasure. Using 19" VGA monitors does not do that. It is not all about cost - for most people. Also, I would say that most people that would pay for one of these devices would also pay for TV service as well. It seems to me that you are spending a whole lot of trouble for a setup that gets a limited amount of service. Also, consider that your PC monitor is not a 16x9 format. If you are viewing HD programming on there, you are either seeing it squished to fit the screen, or in widescreen, which would have a much smaller viewing area than 19". HDTV should be viewed on a widescreen tv for best viewing experience. "Automatic Updates" Tivo - Yes MythTv - No, and updates needed from different sources Control of updates?:-) There is a trade off, but rarely has there been an update that people don't want with the Tivo software. I'll take the all in one provided updates rather than having to worry about O/S, MythTV, driver updates. Having to download them and install. Again, what is your time worth? "Remote Control" Tivo - Well known and well designed peanut remote MythTv - no standard, needs a universal remote (did you factor in the cost of your remote, and the time to set it up?) BTW - how well does your remote work for turning off those PC monitors? While I do have a remote for it, I chose to spend $10 for a remote KB and mouse that can control every aspect of the system. Do you really want me to get into what else you can do with a Linux PC that you can't do with the Tivo? Again, cheapening the experience. MOST people do not want to have to control their TV with a KB/Mouse. The Tivo Peanut remote is a very creative design that makes navigation an easy experience. I'm not disputing that a Linux PC can do more than a Tivo. Remember, though, that most home users have never touched linux. I personally have a pc hooked up to a couple of my HDTV's with wireless KB/Mouse, and I like using it when using PC applications. But, I still prefer the remote for TV viewing. There's more... As I've said before, Wes. You arguments are disingenuous at best. I've got nothing against MythTv, just your presentation that it is a simple, slap it in, better and cheaper than Tivo attitude. And in my opinion, it is. You're more than welcome to yours. That's why they are opinions. And I didn't have any arguements in my review. I only presented facts . I don't see you claiming there are any mistakes in it. It's a free world, if you don't like my comparison you are more than welcome to create your own website and... Sorry, you can't do that with the tivo can you. Yes, the website is running on this machine, as is MythTV 's backend server, and a FTP server, and I'm using a news reader to reply to you now on it too, with a game I've got paused in the background along with frontend that I paused until I finish this. Oh, and I can pause live TV for hours too.:-) You like Tivo. That's your choice. Probably good for you. I've got nothing against your opinions - you are welcome to them. I've got a problem with you coming around as a Troll to the Tivo group giving a lopsided sales pitch to the MythTV setup. You'd think you were getting some kind of commisions from it. I think most home users would have a very hard time trying to implement the box that you've defined at $400. I've got no desire to put together a public comparision of the two and publish it. But, if I did, I would try to be objective. Your presentation and arguments are far from objective. Your arguments are disingenuous at best. |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
Once upon a time, Wes Newell said:
Then you can't read. Cable card support ? Yes Read what I said (that you cut out); since CableCard has heavy DRM restrictions, MythTV (or any other open source software) cannot support CableCard. Putting a "?" in there is wrong; it should be a "No". Also, under tuner comparison, you listed MythTV as "Any", which is wrong. MythTV can support NTSC, ATSC, and some types of unencrypted digital cable (the only unencrypted channels on the cable here are the copies of the OTA channels). (HDNet/HDNet Movies, ESPN/ESPN2 HD, HBO HD, Showtime HD, Discover HD Theater, Universal HD, TNT HD, to name a few). OTA HD may be enough for you but the majority I also didn't mention that many of these premium channels are available OTA, which would have been in the MythTV's favor. Yawn, we've been down this path before. A few cable networks are offered in a handful of markets OTA in standard definition. None are available in HD OTA. Since several of the channels I named are HD only (HDNet/HDNet Movies, Discover HD Theater, Universal HD), their content is not available OTA. And from a survey I did, the only reason the majority do have cable or sat is because they don't know how to get a good clear picture with an antenna. 3 out of 4 I asked said the only reason for havingt pay tv was because they couldn't get good recption otherwise. Highly scientific survey there. Sorry it isn't very convincing, especially when the nationwide ratings show the broadcast networks losing viewers rapidly to the cable networks (the cable networks have a majority of the viewers during some time slots and are close to half much of the time). Due to CableCard DRM, an open source system like MythTV will never be able to record those channels digitally. Not that it matters to me, but you are mistaken. Maybe you haven't seen the USDTV ads running, offering many premium channels OTA. Again, as we've been through before, USDTV is non-HD (which is what this thread is about - try to keep up with discussions you started). And no, I haven't seen USDTV ads, since I don't live in one of their 4 markets. And no matter what USDTV does, MythTV still can't record from CableCard cable digitally. The only possible way would be with an expensive real-time HD encoder per stream (and then you'll get decode/reencode artifacting, not the orginal digital signal like a TiVo). WTF are you talking about. Digital signals are broadcast alreay encoded in mpeg2. There's no encoding required. The digital stream is simply saved to disk. Only if you have access to a digital bitstream. With CableCard digital cable, MythTV does not have access to the digital bitstream. The only way for MythTV to record HD from digital cable would be to capture the analog bitstream (if available) through a real-time HD encoder (I don't know if MythTV supports that). And for your info, OTA HD gives a much better signal than the compressed crap you get from cable or sat. That highly depends on your local broadcaster. Some do better than others, while some compress multiple channels into a single OTA slot. I've got one local that has 3 channels, compressing the HD down a good bit to fit the other 2 channels in (at least the compress the other 2 heavily). Another carries two different networks, one in HD and one in SD; since that is the local source for the second network, they can't compress it down significantly, so it takes bandwidth from the primary HD channel. If you don't know what you're talking about it's best to keep quiet and not look the fool. You should print that out and tape it to your monitor. You are repeating the same crap you spouted before that was proven wrong. -- Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 07:11:00 -0500, Randy S. wrote:
The HD Tivo isn't a series 1. And it's going to draw a lot more current than the S1. In the end, the difference in power consumption one way or the other isn't going to matter much. While Tivos will be left on 24/7, MythTV boxes can be turned off most of the time. my frontend machine only runs about 4 hours a day, so even if it used 5 times as much power as the HD Tivo, it would consume less overall. I actually save more money running MythTV since my server ran 24/7 anyway and has for close to 15 years (excluding upgrades). Now I don't have the Tivo running 24/7. I also don't have my other DVR running 24/7, and I also don't have the 2 vcr's running 24/7 either. Now when I look at it like that, Tivo's are a lot more expensive to run poer wise. And I'd have to run 2 HD tivos for the same recording capability I have now. Current electric cost for MythTV is 0. Cost of 2 HD tivos running 24/7=? Wes, now you're biasing again. There's nothing biased about it. It's the damn truth. And I didn't bring up the power issue. Can your Mythtv setup run without your backend server? No, but the backend server can also be the the frontend. I chose to use a seperate machine so I could have HDTV in both rooms. Had I not, the only extra power used would be that of the tuners inside the box, since my server runs 24/7 anyway and did and still will regardless of mythtv. We both know it can't. So discounting the backend power is disingenuous. No it's not. It going to running all the time anyway. Just because it's running anyway doesn't allow you to discount it. So I have to pay the electric company twice.:-) If you want to be fair, figure out the percentage of use that goes to Mythtv (and I mean percentage of *use* not of capability, total percentage should add up to 100%). Then include that percentage of total power used in the consideration. What? Why don't you do it for me. I don't care how much extra power the tuner cards draw. But here's a rough estimate. Before installing the tuners, my UPS load was 26%. It's now 32%. Power's probably not a big consideration anyway, particularly if both devices can be setup with low power modes. Exactly. But I still use less than the HD Tivos would. -- Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 05:12:45 -0800, zafdor wrote:
Now when I look at it like that, Tivo's are a lot more expensive to run poer wise. Try not to take this as a flame, but now you're just being silly! Most people do not have a server running 24/7, so it's hardly a fair comparison so say thay power is being burned anyways. Well, I wasn't talking about other people. I was talking about me. You can turn a tivo off also and make its power zero when its not bing used (with an X10 lamp module). Yeah, if you want to force call ins for guide data. I've never heard of anyone doing this though. If there were a mythtv that supported foxton, this would be ideal, keep the thing low power until you see on the clock you need to record, then come on. Until then you will likely need to have that power eating CPU running all the time and you will never approach the low power of dedicated designed hardware. Never heard of foxton. In any case, a MythTV box isn't going to use much more than the new HD tivo. And some people might actually turn their MythTV boxes off during all but the evening hours. Not many people with Tivos are going to do that. Toatal consumption of power shouldn't even be an issue here. You will also never approach the base manufacturing cost of a Tivo by purchasing PC parts. Tivo no doubt loses money selling a box for $50, Since when did the $50 Tivo box record HD, which is what the comparison is about, the series 3 HD tivo. but I do not think its ver much ($10-$20). If you really want an interesting project to share with the open source community, hack the tivo hardware to use a free subscription service, heck I'll sign up right now as your first customer! That's already been done. Why reinvent the wheel. And it's still illegal.:-) To Jeff, Have you actually measured the input power to this machine? If its calculated, can you share the breakdown? I still have an 8 year old Matrox for video in my desktop at home, but I recollect putting in some power eaters in my kids PCs. How much power do you need to burn in the video card to get 1080i? The CPU is probably the biggest thing to watch out for, maybe the way to go is to put a laptop CPU on the MB(?). Even a lazy celeron will cost you 50+ watts on the input power (more then the whole Tivo S2). I can't imaging the tuner cards are more then a few watts, disks are ~10-12W on your input cord. If mythtv could master the power problem, I would spend $ on hardware to build one, until then it would only be a recreational project on a box headed for the junk heap. Recording 4 HD shows at once, my cpu uses 35W. Newer models only use 22W. So the only difference between an HD tivo and a pc is going to be very minimal power wise. Had a buddy who set up a POWER2 based server at him home stuffed will small SCSI drives he got from ebay. He no longer runs it 24/7 since we calculated it burns $40/month in power! Just run it during the winter.:-) -- Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
Wes Newell ) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 18:41:11 -0500, Jeff Rife wrote: Well, you could get a very nice 20" 1600x1200 Dell LCD (that can actually display all 1600x1200 pixels, unlike your monitor) for less than $500 the next time they go on sale. Or, you could get a 19" 1280x1024 (which *still* has more real resolution than your monitor) for $300. Are you drunk? I said my $69 19" CRT monitor runs at 1600x1200 non-interlaced. Yes, it can accept that scan rate. No, it cannot display 1600x1200 unique pixels. You can believe it does all you want, but that doesn't make it so. Why in the hell would I want to spend $300 for one with less capability. Because the actual resolution on that "1600x1200" 19" monitor is about 1000x800, if you bother to measure it (or cared). And i don't want an LCD monitor or TV of any kind, even if the price were the same as the crt. Some of us want actual quality from our video...not just the cheapest thing available. -- Jeff Rife | Sam: What d'ya say to a beer, Normie? | | Norm: Hi, sailor...new in town? |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
Chris Adams ) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
Yawn, we've been down this path before. A few cable networks are offered in a handful of markets OTA in standard definition. None are available in HD OTA. Since several of the channels I named are HD only (HDNet/HDNet Movies, Discover HD Theater, Universal HD), their content is not available OTA. Actually, there is exactly *one* exception and it does happen to be in the DMA where he lives. A lot (but not all) of HDNet content is available OTA in HD from a local station there because Marc Cuban has some sort of interest in that station. -- Jeff Rife | "Tragedy struck today in Sector Nine as rebel | terrorists blew up the Death Star, killing | thousands. The Rebel Alliance, a fringe group | of anti-Empire fanatics, has claimed | responsibility for the terrorist act. | Fortunately, Lord Vader escaped without harm. | Our hearts go out to the families of the | victims." | -- "NewsRadio" |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
I didn't review how well it worked, only that it's going to support cable card. If you think it's not going to I can say no in the review. Then others can come back and bitch. Get over it. WTF? Of course it's going to support cableCARD, that's the whole point, there's very little speculation in that. The *severe* speculation is yours when you mark "?" for Mythtv cableCARD support. We know the answer for that even without speculating, and the answer is *no*. There *are* middle grounds here. It is possible to speculate and draw conclusions on things that are not yet complete. But it is also important to acknowledge that those things *aren't* complete and could change. I don't have a problem admitting that while still speculating for the academic exercise of it. Why is that so hard for you to do? And why must you type so much. My review states that it's based on info as of Feb 2006. How long of a disclaimer do you want me to type? IMO, there won't be any changes to the HDT tivo between now and production. You're welcome to your opinion. Only time will tell. Your "opinion" as to whether there will be changes is worth *0*. You can't guarantee that, so you can't assume it. In fact I can virtually guarantee you that there *will* be changes, at least minor ones, and possibly only in software, but there will be changes. Randy S. |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
Cable card support ? Yes
Wes, I've already pointed out your bias in that statement. There's nothing but facts there. There's only 2 answers. I don't know if there will ever be PC support of cable card (although some here seem to think so), and that Tivo will support Cable card. Now where is the ****ing bias? The bias is clear here. The answer for MythTV should be "no". If you're going to speculate about what might be added in the future, then you should go back and put question marks next to most of columns in your entire comparison. Your responses should be based on what's available now (or for the S3, at time of initial release). (HDNet/HDNet Movies, ESPN/ESPN2 HD, HBO HD, Showtime HD, Discover HD Theater, Universal HD, TNT HD, to name a few). OTA HD may be enough for you but the majority I also didn't mention that many of these premium channels are available OTA, which would have been in the MythTV's favor. No, Wes the HD channels he stated above are *not* broadcast channels. And I didn't say they were. I'm tired of this... Wes, now you're lying, it's in the 2 sentences above. A list of channels are presented. You state that many of *these* channels are available. Clearly none of those listed are. So, yes, you did state it, and it wasn't true. I.e. they aren't sent OTA. Your beloved USDTV which you've never used, is only available in *4* western cities in the US, and only supplies the broadcast networks in HD anyway (notice all of the above list is HD?). Plus USDTV raises my suspicions, what type of service provides so little information on their website, they don't even list a channel lineup !? On top of that, it's not like you can integrate it into mythTV, you'd have to some sort of lash up with IR blasters which would negate many of Mythtv's advantages. Why is everyone bringing up crap that doesn't even pertain to the review? You brought it up in this very post, I just referred to it earlier in the post (not in the thread) than you did because I read the whole post before replying to it. of TV viewers want more than the broadcast networks (well over half the US TV owning households have cable and/or satellite). And from a survey I did, the only reason the majority do have cable or sat is because they don't know how to get a good clear picture with an antenna. 3 out of 4 I asked said the only reason for havingt pay tv was because they couldn't get good recption otherwise. Please show us the source of this survey, along with proof of it's statistical accuracy. That's preprietary info. Making the entire comment worthless, because you're probably making it up. Information without review is worthless. Asking 4 acquaintances does not count as a survey. Why not? 4 or 4,000, 000. It still a survey. The margin fo error is greater though. Ok, how about this, it is statistically meaningless. How geographically diverse was this survey, since location is so critical to reception? Strictly Dallas area. Even more statistically meaningless. Due to CableCard DRM, an open source system like MythTV will never be able to record those channels digitally. Not that it matters to me, but you are mistaken. Maybe you haven't seen the USDTV ads running, offering many premium channels OTA. but none in HD. We've already been down this road. So what? They are still premium channels OTA. The original post clearly stated that Mythtv could not get these channels in HD. You claimed they could receive it. Since the discussion was HD reception, now *you* are off topic. He's not talking about OTA, he's talking about reencoding a signal from a source like your oft-quoted USDTV. Since you can't pull a native digital signal from USDTV's required settop box, you'll have to reencode the analog signal. Accoring to USDTV, you can. I told them exactly what I had and they confirmed I could record them. I don't know and don't care. I think I've made that obvious many times. Again, way away from the comparison where USDTV isn't even mentioned. *You* brought it up. If you don't think it's relevent, then don't bring it up! Randy S. |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:20:53 +0000, Scooby wrote:
"Wes Newell" wrote in message news:[email protected] On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 16:20:53 +0000, Scooby wrote: Uh, Wes, How's about adding some more fields to that chart, like... "Appliance" Tivo - Yes MythTV - No Interesting. You find a Tivo computer to be an aplliance, and a MythTV computer not to be an appliance. Sorry, I just don't agree with that. Did you happen to miss the very first line? System Type. Apparently you don't understand what the computer industry considers an appliance. That is an all in one turn-key device that doesn't need a custom build, such as a Tivo. A build it yourself box, such as MythTV does not qualify. Trivial, but who do you think is going tio plug in the cable cards or the Externaal HD in if you get any of these. They're both PC's in the end. Just that the Tivo is preprietary. "Time to install/setup" Tivo - 10 Minutes MythTv - infinite based on knowledge. No less than a few hours (what is your time worth). Actually, it is probably never "complete". You can't setup a tivo in 10 minutes. Perhaps you don't remember the first one you had. Granted it's not rocket science, but It's a lot more time consuming than that. And how long does the data download take over the phone? Hours. There's configuration time with it just as there is with MythTV. And fwiw, basic setup for mythtv is as simple as loading 1 cd onto the drive using knoppmyth. Sure, it takes more time overall, but it also will do a lot more. Okay, 10 minutes may be a little low, but not much. I've setup a handful of these things and it is a pretty quick setup. If the initial phone call needs to do a big down load, you can just go away and come back. IIRC, it took something like 4 hours to first download and process the data. The unit won't function til that is done, so I sure would consider that as part of the setup time. I can thow all the parts of the a MythTV box on the table in less than 10 minutes too, but it's not going to work until it's setup and configured. So.if you buy a pre configured machine which can be done from many places, then someone with a little experience can get it running within the time the tivo is downing the guide data asssuming it still takes 4 hours over the phone. the proceedure would be to take the side cover off and stall the tuner cards (10 minutes max). Plug in the pc, insert knoppmyth CD and boot. Answer the question and let it go. Total time to install is about 15 minutes iirc. Reboot and configure the installed software. An experienced person can do that in anywhere from 15-30 minutes. yep, your tivo is still downloading.:-) Now this assumes a fast internet connection. I know this doesn't sound right to you but it's the truth. I've done it enough times here that I know how long it takes. A first timer will take considerably longer, and if they are very bright may never get it to work.:-) The setup in MythTV I am referring to is research of products to use, So, you didn't research other products when you firs tbought your Tivo? I know I spent many hours and days looking at the differences bewteen the Tivo and the Replay before I decided on the Tivo. So I really don't see why that's even an issue. Just send them to the mythtv newsgroup and I'll make sure they buy the right stuff in general. ordering those products, unpacking them and building your system, downloading the O/S, downloading MythTV, burning CD's for installation, running the installation procedures, configuring MythTV to work with your devices, troubleshooting device driver issues. So who buys your Tivo's for you? And do they come put and unpack them for you too. You're on the virge of rediculous here. And you only have to dl one file, an ISO image. It's ll find and configure everything for you mostly. Might have proiblems, but it's not near as bad as you might want some to beleive. And it probably won't be as easy for OP as I've outlined either. Still, it's not real hard. Now, you've made it well known that you had some video card issues. I'd really like to know the total time you've put into all of the above. I didn't have any video card card issues. I did have some tuner card issues and installing MythTV since I wanted the cards and the backend server on my current server that's on 24/7 anyway. That and the fact that the original card I bouight was new and didn't have kernel support yet. It was supported in cvs, but the driver didn;'t make it into the kernel build until 2.6.14. I put a lot of time into it, and a lot of it was time that most people will never spend since dvb in linix has advanced so quickly. I'll say again - what is your time worth? Maybe your time isn't worth much, but I'd rather pay a little more an appliance than to fight through that. Well, If I could have bought a 4 tuner HD recorder that does what I can do now, I'd have bought it too. But you can't. My original plan was to just build a new box and put it in the bedroom. After seeing other options I decide to use my server for the backend server and frontend machines in other locations over ethernet. In the end I'm glad I did. I've actually considered building a MythTV box myself, but more for a learning experience and to evaluate it. I certainly wouldn't do that to save a few bucks and neither would most people that are just trying to improve their viewing experience. Well, you can build a single HD tuner system on the cheap for probably $150-$200 using a used PC. Help always in the mythtv NG. Well, Wes. I just think you are really cheapening the experience. Most people that would pay for a device such as a Tivo or a MythTV box are trying to increase their viewing pleasure. Using 19" VGA monitors does not do that. It does for me. I originally had a 19" analog TV in my room I watched. When I got the wife a new 32" I moved here 25 into my room. I took it out soon after and put the 19" back in. Some people just don't prefer large screens at close viewing. I'm one of them. My wife is not. That's why she watches tv on hers and I watch it on mine.:-) And trust me, just going from analog to digital alone is a huge difference in the clarity of the picture. AFAIC, HD is just a minor improvement compared to a crystal clear regular digital picture. I did go out and buy an ATSC tuner for my wife's tv. And even though it's only SD, the picture is so much better compared to the analog signals we get out here. It is not all about cost - for most people. Hmmm.... So I can see you weren't living on the streets when you were 14. Also, I would say that most people that would pay for one of these devices would also pay for TV service as well. It seems to me that you are spending a whole lot of trouble for a setup that gets a limited amount of service. There's more on OTA TV than I can watch. Why do you think I have a 4 tuner recorder. And why would I want more.:-) I just want to watch TV on my terms. And when I want to watch it, not when I'm forced to by broadcast times. And I want a clear picture. OTA digital recording does all that I want. Also, consider that your PC monitor is not a 16x9 format. And thank goodness it isn't as most shows are still in SD and would be a lot smaller if it were. using the fill mode all rpogramimg, SD or HD fills the screen. HD fills by doing a 16:9 zoom. great picture and there's nothing on the sides but logo's anyway. If you are viewing HD programming on there, you are either seeing it squished to fit the screen, or in widescreen, which would have a much smaller viewing area than 19". HDTV should be viewed on a widescreen tv for best viewing experience. Squished? There's nothing squished or stretched the way I watch it, HD or SD. About the only time I switch to a 16:9 format is watching sports. At all other times, they really nothing to be missed on the outer edges of HD. There is a trade off, but rarely has there been an update that people don't want with the Tivo software. Come on now. I've seen hundreds of gripes in theis group about some of the so called new features from updates. I'll take the all in one provided updates rather than having to worry about O/S, MythTV, driver updates. What's to upate? It either works or it doesn't. If it works today, it'll still work 10 years from now. There's no need to update. it's ac choice. And I think you can get auto udates thru CVS if you want them. I don't so I haven't checked it out. Having to download them and install. Again, what is your time worth? Once working, why would I want to DL them again? It does more now than I'll ever use. Even things like movie searches I saw someone here wishinf Tivo had. While I do have a remote for it, I chose to spend $10 for a remote KB and mouse that can control every aspect of the system. Do you really want me to get into what else you can do with a Linux PC that you can't do with the Tivo? Again, cheapening the experience. MOST people do not want to have to control their TV with a KB/Mouse. Then they can use a remote. Why do you call the way I prefer to do it as cheapening. Perhaps I think you're cheapening the Tivo experience by not using a unversal remote. So please keep your cheapening remarks to yourself. So agian, your cheapening the experience. Most people prefer a unversal remote to control all there A/V devices. IOW's get off you high horse. You aren't big enough to ride it. The Tivo Peanut remote is a very creative design that makes navigation an easy experience. BS. It's a cheap piece of crap. That why I never used mine and bought universal remotes like probably 90% of the people do. I'm not disputing that a Linux PC can do more than a Tivo. Remember, though, that most home users have never touched linux. I personally have a pc hooked up to a couple of my HDTV's with wireless KB/Mouse, and I like using it when using PC applications. But, I still prefer the remote for TV viewing. Then be all means use the remote. I have both and I prefer the KB. I've got nothing against your opinions - you are welcome to them. I've got a problem with you coming around as a Troll to the Tivo group giving a lopsided sales pitch to the MythTV setup. You'd think you were getting some kind of commisions from it. I think most home users would have a very hard time trying to implement the box that you've defined at $400. I didn't start all the recent talk about MythTV here. I posted nothing more than to a link where I did a comparison. Then Op started with the MythTV questions and comments. If you want to blame someone for this thread, blame them. the review even requested I be contacted via email. This NG was not mentined once in the review. And I wouldn't have even done the review if it wasn'rt welcomed here by certain members. If then I din't flood the NG with it but put it up on my own server. I've got no desire to put together a public comparision of the two and publish it. Then don't bitch about it. I've spent more time replying to this crap than I did creating the review webpage. And there's yet to be one email stating something is wrong, And if you do email me with a correction. give me a verifiable link that supports you. Otherwise, your time and mine would be better spent elsewhere. -- Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:23:41 +0000, Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, Wes Newell said: Then you can't read. Cable card support ? Yes Read what I said (that you cut out); since CableCard has heavy DRM restrictions, MythTV (or any other open source software) cannot support CableCard. Putting a "?" in there is wrong; it should be a "No". Well, at the time, I didn't know. I was about to change it to no when another person from the group said there is likely to be cable card support, so until *I* know, the "?" is a proper entry. perhaps you need to learn what a "?" means.:-) Also, under tuner comparison, you listed MythTV as "Any", which is wrong. MythTV can support NTSC, ATSC, and some types of unencrypted digital cable (the only unencrypted channels on the cable here are the copies of the OTA channels). Any refers to any type that plugs into a PC. That includes, ntsc, atsc, qam, and ANY others I don't know about. I'm not even going to get into your other crap. (HDNet/HDNet Movies, ESPN/ESPN2 HD, HBO HD, Showtime HD, Discover HD Theater, Universal HD, TNT HD, to name a few). OTA HD may be enough for you but the majority I also didn't mention that many of these premium channels are available OTA, which would have been in the MythTV's favor. Yawn, we've been down this path before. A few cable networks are offered in a handful of markets OTA in standard definition. None are available in HD OTA. Since several of the channels I named are HD only (HDNet/HDNet Movies, Discover HD Theater, Universal HD), their content is not available OTA. Your first listing of ESPN didn't have HD behind it. You need to be more specific. The fact is that I know you can get premium channels here OTA. I don't know (or care) if you can or can in the future get them in HD. Likely, that may happen. I chose not to bring it up. You chose to bring it up. Had you formed your remark properly like ESPN-HD, or HD-ESPN I might not have overlooked the HD part behind. But siince you didn't and I saw one that wasn't designated as HD I assume you meant all premium channels. -- Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 10:59:16 -0500, Jeff Rife wrote:
Wes Newell ) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo: On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 18:41:11 -0500, Jeff Rife wrote: Well, you could get a very nice 20" 1600x1200 Dell LCD (that can actually display all 1600x1200 pixels, unlike your monitor) for less than $500 the next time they go on sale. Or, you could get a 19" 1280x1024 (which *still* has more real resolution than your monitor) for $300. Are you drunk? I said my $69 19" CRT monitor runs at 1600x1200 non-interlaced. Yes, it can accept that scan rate. No, it cannot display 1600x1200 unique pixels. You can believe it does all you want, but that doesn't make it so. And now I'm real curious how you came to that conclusion. So, you must be saying that 1280x1024 monitor won't really do 1280x1024 either then, or that a 640x400 monitor won't really do 640x 400. Can you explain this? Why in the hell would I want to spend $300 for one with less capability. Because the actual resolution on that "1600x1200" 19" monitor is about 1000x800, if you bother to measure it (or cared). Wow, if it doesn't display the pixels it says it does, what happens when i get down to 1x1? is that really -10x-10? :-) You have to be on something.:-) FWIW, I've dragged the mouse pointer from 1 across to close to 1600. I thinkt it stopped at abot 1590 something. Was it lying to me too:-) I also just did it on this 1024x768 monitor and guess what. It shows it as 1024x768 too. Please tell me how I can get these monitors to quit lying to me.:-) And i don't want an LCD monitor or TV of any kind, even if the price were the same as the crt. Some of us want actual quality from our video...not just the cheapest thing available. hmmmm. I guess you missed the part about the price being the same.:-) In my opinion, a CRT just displays better than LCD. -- Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:13:19 -0500, Randy S. wrote:
I didn't review how well it worked, only that it's going to support cable card. If you think it's not going to I can say no in the review. Then others can come back and bitch. Get over it. WTF? Of course it's going to support cableCARD, that's the whole point, there's very little speculation in that. The *severe* speculation is yours when you mark "?" for Mythtv cableCARD support. We know the answer for that even without speculating, and the answer is *no*. Well, you might certainly think that, but unless you really have a crystal ball, and not crystal balls, you can't predict the future any better than Jeff that that thinks there might be. I'll admit I don't know. And the proper response to that is a "?", not a no. -- Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
On 2006-02-11, Wes Newell wrote:
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:13:19 -0500, Randy S. wrote: I didn't review how well it worked, only that it's going to support cable card. If you think it's not going to I can say no in the review. Then others can come back and bitch. Get over it. WTF? Of course it's going to support cableCARD, that's the whole point, there's very little speculation in that. The *severe* speculation is yours when you mark "?" for Mythtv cableCARD support. We know the answer for that even without speculating, and the answer is *no*. Well, you might certainly think that, but unless you really have a crystal ball, and not crystal balls, you can't predict the future any better than Jeff that that thinks there might be. I'll admit I don't know. And the proper response to that is a "?", not a no. If you're going to be a jackass about it, then a lot more of your MythTV columns should be changed. You should change the "System Type", "Guide data length", "Internet", "RF inputs", etc. to "?" since there is always a chance these things could change in the future. Not putting a No in the "Cable card support" for MythTV is simply misleading (one could even make the agrument that it's wrong and a lie). -- This is my .sig |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
Wes Newell ) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
Yes, it can accept that scan rate. No, it cannot display 1600x1200 unique pixels. You can believe it does all you want, but that doesn't make it so. And now I'm real curious how you came to that conclusion. So, you must be saying that 1280x1024 monitor won't really do 1280x1024 either then, or that a 640x400 monitor won't really do 640x 400. Can you explain this? There are no 19" CRT monitors that can fully resolve 1600x1200 and that also cost less than $500. Do some research. Because the actual resolution on that "1600x1200" 19" monitor is about 1000x800, if you bother to measure it (or cared). Wow, if it doesn't display the pixels it says it does, what happens when i get down to 1x1? Pixels smear over each other. Display a resolution chart and you'll see. FWIW, I've dragged the mouse pointer from 1 across to close to 1600. I thinkt it stopped at abot 1590 something. Was it lying to me too:-) I also just did it on this 1024x768 monitor and guess what. It shows it as 1024x768 too. Please tell me how I can get these monitors to quit lying to me.:-) Just because the scan rate can put out 1600x1200 doesn't mean that you can see and resolve that many pixels. In my opinion, a CRT just displays better than LCD. Your opinion is pretty much worthless (especially about display quality), based on everything you have written about how little you care for quality and only care about how little you spent. -- Jeff Rife | | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/AngryTVGod.gif |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
Wes Newell wrote:
"Appliance" Tivo - Yes MythTV - No Interesting. You find a Tivo computer to be an aplliance, and a MythTV computer not to be an appliance. Sorry, I just don't agree with that. An appliance is something you can buy off the shelf. It comes with a warrantee and reliable company that stands behind it. MythTV is not an appliance. -Joe |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 01:19:07 -0500, Jeff Rife wrote:
Wes Newell ) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo: Yes, it can accept that scan rate. No, it cannot display 1600x1200 unique pixels. You can believe it does all you want, but that doesn't make it so. And now I'm real curious how you came to that conclusion. So, you must be saying that 1280x1024 monitor won't really do 1280x1024 either then, or that a 640x400 monitor won't really do 640x 400. Can you explain this? There are no 19" CRT monitors that can fully resolve 1600x1200 and that also cost less than $500. Do some research. Well, I don't know how to respond to this other than you're full of crap. Because the actual resolution on that "1600x1200" 19" monitor is about 1000x800, if you bother to measure it (or cared). Wow, if it doesn't display the pixels it says it does, what happens when i get down to 1x1? Pixels smear over each other. Display a resolution chart and you'll see. FWIW, I've dragged the mouse pointer from 1 across to close to 1600. I thinkt it stopped at abot 1590 something. Was it lying to me too:-) I also just did it on this 1024x768 monitor and guess what. It shows it as 1024x768 too. Please tell me how I can get these monitors to quit lying to me.:-) Just because the scan rate can put out 1600x1200 doesn't mean that you can see and resolve that many pixels. WTF does that mean. Hell no I can't see each individual pixel, They're too small for my old eyes. That doesn't mean they aren't there. I can see them with a magnifying glass though. But if you think I'm going to try and count 1600 across the screeen, you're nuts. I trust that the computer isn't lying to me when it says I'm in 1600x1200 mode. And you know what, it isn't. I can switch between all resolution and see the difference in the display using Cntrl-ALt-(+/-) in Linux. I can also look in the config file and see all the modelines and options. i don't know where you come up with your crap other than pull it out of your butt. In my opinion, a CRT just displays better than LCD. Your opinion is pretty much worthless (especially about display quality), based on everything you have written about how little you care for quality and only care about how little you spent. Ah, since I'm a smart shopper, my opinions are worthless. Now I know how you think. Just like my 16 year old neice that would pay $200 for the same dress she could get at Target for $50. -- Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php |
HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
Never heard of foxton.
I think it's only in server chips from intel. It allows the OS to throttle the processor when it wants. I believe Linux is a leader in its implementation(!). That's already been done. Why reinvent the wheel. And it's still illegal.:-) Hmm, I don't recall signing an agreement when I bought the HARDWARE, only when buying the service. As Apple found out with the ipod, you generally can't get away with selling hardware and then forcing people to buy your service. Can you post a credible link of the litigation? I'm inclined to think this is urban legand. Even a lazy celeron will cost you 50+ watts on the input power (more then the whole Tivo S2). Recording 4 HD shows at once, my cpu uses 35W. Precisely! I'm guessing your tuners have hardware accelleration for the video. What % of CPU is being used? Now image if the processor was only 1W. Your 35 watt processor is no doubt over 50W on the power cord once you figure in the efficiency of the processor VRM and front end power supply. BTW how did you measure this? Do the new BIOS allow for measurement? People tend to not always judge total cost of ownership very accurately. I work in the IT industry designing power (which is why I obsess on this power thing). The cost of a PC supply is about $15, but over its life, it will burn anywhere from $30-$150 of power. Now ask a corporate user if he will spend an extra $3 per PC to get its efficiency from 65% to 80% and the answer will be no! More at http://www.80plus.org/ . For something like a PVR (myth or Tivo), the cost of electrical power will be a major factor until they can implement some type of meaningful power management. This cannot be ignored in a cost of ownership analysis. |
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