Home cinema - HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.

"Wes Newell" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:20:53 +0000, Scooby wrote:

"Wes Newell" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 16:20:53 +0000, Scooby wrote:

Uh, Wes,

How's about adding some more fields to that chart, like...

"Appliance"
Tivo - Yes
MythTV - No

Interesting. You find a Tivo computer to be an aplliance, and a MythTV
computer not to be an appliance. Sorry, I just don't agree with that.
Did you happen to miss the very first line? System Type.

Apparently you don't understand what the computer industry considers an
appliance. That is an all in one turn-key device that doesn't need a
custom build, such as a Tivo. A build it yourself box, such as MythTV
does not qualify.

Trivial, but who do you think is going tio plug in the cable cards or the
Externaal HD in if you get any of these. They're both PC's in the end.
Just that the Tivo is preprietary.

Not trivial - it's the whole point. Most people don't want to assemble
their DVR/PVR from pieces and have to get it all working together. They want
a single, all-in-one supported box.

"Time to install/setup"
Tivo - 10 Minutes
MythTv - infinite based on knowledge. No less than a few hours (what
is your time worth). Actually, it is probably never "complete".

You can't setup a tivo in 10 minutes. Perhaps you don't remember the
first one you had. Granted it's not rocket science, but It's a lot more
time consuming than that. And how long does the data download take over
the phone? Hours. There's configuration time with it just as there is
with MythTV. And fwiw, basic setup for mythtv is as simple as loading 1
cd onto the drive using knoppmyth. Sure, it takes more time overall,
but it also will do a lot more.

Okay, 10 minutes may be a little low, but not much. I've setup a
handful of these things and it is a pretty quick setup. If the initial
phone call needs to do a big down load, you can just go away and come
back.

IIRC, it took something like 4 hours to first download and process the
data. The unit won't function til that is done, so I sure would consider
that as part of the setup time. I can thow all the parts of the a MythTV
box on the table in less than 10 minutes too, but it's not going to work
until it's setup and configured. So.if you buy a pre configured machine
which can be done from many places, then someone with a little experience
can get it running within the time the tivo is downing the guide data
asssuming it still takes 4 hours over the phone. the proceedure would be
to take the side cover off and stall the tuner cards (10 minutes max).
Plug in the pc, insert knoppmyth CD and boot. Answer the question and let
it go. Total time to install is about 15 minutes iirc. Reboot and
configure the installed software. An experienced person can do that in
anywhere from 15-30 minutes. yep, your tivo is still downloading.:-) Now
this assumes a fast internet connection. I know this doesn't sound right
to you but it's the truth. I've done it enough times here that I know how
long it takes. A first timer will take considerably longer, and if they
are very bright may never get it to work.:-)

The setup in MythTV I am referring to is research of products to use,

So, you didn't research other products when you firs tbought your Tivo? I
know I spent many hours and days looking at the differences bewteen the
Tivo and the Replay before I decided on the Tivo. So I really don't see
why that's even an issue. Just send them to the mythtv newsgroup and I'll
make sure they buy the right stuff in general.

I'm not talking about what whole product to use. But rather the pieces
involved in making that product work. With Tivo, there is one device to buy.
With a system such as MythTV, you need to investigate which products you
will put into it... What MB, memory, drives, tuner cards, video card, case,
power supply, etc... Not choosing the right combonation could set a system
up for failure.

ordering those products, unpacking them and building your system,
downloading the O/S, downloading MythTV, burning CD's for installation,
running the installation procedures, configuring MythTV to work with
your devices, troubleshooting device driver issues.

So who buys your Tivo's for you? And do they come put and unpack them for
you too. You're on the virge of rediculous here. And you only have to dl
one file, an ISO image. It's ll find and configure everything for you
mostly. Might have proiblems, but it's not near as bad as you might want
some to beleive. And it probably won't be as easy for OP as I've outlined
either. Still, it's not real hard.

The point is that you take it out of the box, and will little setup, you are
ready to go. As simple as dl an ISO image? Do you know what percent of the
population would even understand what that means? But, there is the whole
part about cracking open the case to install your components and
troubleshooting the problems that would scare away most common people.
Still not real hard... for you, maybe. But, you did struggle some and you
seem to think yourself technically able. Think of all the technically inept
people and how hard it would be for them. Consider the "grandmother test"
as someone else put it.

Now, you've made it well known that you had some video card issues. I'd
really like to know the total time you've put into all of the above.

I didn't have any video card card issues. I did have some tuner card
issues and installing MythTV since I wanted the cards and the backend
server on my current server that's on 24/7 anyway. That and the fact that
the original card I bouight was new and didn't have kernel support yet. It
was supported in cvs, but the driver didn;'t make it into the kernel build
until 2.6.14. I put a lot of time into it, and a lot of it was time that
most people will never spend since dvb in linix has advanced so quickly.

I'll say again - what is your time worth? Maybe your time isn't worth
much, but I'd rather pay a little more an appliance than to fight
through that.

Well, If I could have bought a 4 tuner HD recorder that does what I can do
now, I'd have bought it too. But you can't. My original plan was to just
build a new box and put it in the bedroom. After seeing other options I
decide to use my server for the backend server and frontend machines in
other locations over ethernet. In the end I'm glad I did.

I've actually considered building a MythTV box myself,
but more for a learning experience and to evaluate it. I certainly
wouldn't do that to save a few bucks and neither would most people that
are just trying to improve their viewing experience.

Well, you can build a single HD tuner system on the cheap for probably
$150-$200 using a used PC. Help always in the mythtv NG.

Could your average person do this with little effort or research?

Well, Wes. I just think you are really cheapening the experience. Most
people that would pay for a device such as a Tivo or a MythTV box are
trying to increase their viewing pleasure. Using 19" VGA monitors does
not do that.

It does for me. I originally had a 19" analog TV in my room I watched.
When I got the wife a new 32" I moved here 25 into my room. I took it out
soon after and put the 19" back in. Some people just don't prefer large
screens at close viewing. I'm one of them. My wife is not. That's why she
watches tv on hers and I watch it on mine.:-) And trust me, just going
from analog to digital alone is a huge difference in the clarity of the
picture. AFAIC, HD is just a minor improvement compared to a crystal clear
regular digital picture. I did go out and buy an ATSC tuner for my wife's
tv. And even though it's only SD, the picture is so much better compared
to the analog signals we get out here.

I'll still stand by the fact that I think it cheapens the experience. But,
if that is the way you prefer it, then to each his own.

It is not all about cost - for most people.

Hmmm.... So I can see you weren't living on the streets when you were 14.

Also, I would say that most people that would pay for one of these
devices would also pay for TV service as well. It seems to me that you
are spending a whole lot of trouble for a setup that gets a limited
amount of service.

There's more on OTA TV than I can watch. Why do you think I have a 4 tuner
recorder. And why would I want more.:-) I just want to watch TV on my
terms. And when I want to watch it, not when I'm forced to by broadcast
times. And I want a clear picture. OTA digital recording does all that I
want.

It's not just about how much there is to watch, but what you prefer. For
example, you said you watch sports. Don't you ever want to watch ESPN or
other sports related programming that is just not available on network tv?
The Discovery channel HD has some amazing programming. Universal HD has
some coverage of the olympics that is not on network tv, etc....

Also, consider that your PC monitor is not a 16x9 format.

And thank goodness it isn't as most shows are still in SD and would be a
lot smaller if it were. using the fill mode all rpogramimg, SD or HD fills
the screen. HD fills by doing a 16:9 zoom. great picture and there's
nothing on the sides but logo's anyway.

Again, I guess to each his own, but I prefer the wide screen for HD content.

If you are viewing HD programming on there, you are either seeing it
squished to
fit the screen, or in widescreen, which would have a much smaller
viewing area than 19". HDTV should be viewed on a widescreen tv for
best viewing experience.

Squished? There's nothing squished or stretched the way I watch it, HD or
SD. About the only time I switch to a 16:9 format is watching sports. At
all other times, they really nothing to be missed on the outer edges of
HD.
There is a trade off, but rarely has there been an update that people
don't want with the Tivo software.

Come on now. I've seen hundreds of gripes in theis group about some of the
so called new features from updates.

I'll take the all in one provided updates rather than having to worry
about O/S, MythTV, driver updates.

What's to upate? It either works or it doesn't. If it works today, it'll
still work 10 years from now. There's no need to update. it's ac choice.
And I think you can get auto udates thru CVS if you want them. I don't so
I haven't checked it out.

You can't really believe that is true in the computer world. It may appear
to work, but have an occasional anomoly. Turns out after much frustration
you find there is a published bug fix by one of the component mfg's that
there is a bug fix. So, download the fix and install. The whole point of
an appliance like a Tivo is that it is component that have been engineered
to work together and will have a single source for support and updates.
When new updates come out to MythTV, you have to manually d/l and install if
you want them. On balance, not such a bad thing, but when considering the
"grandmother" rule, it could be.

Having to download them and install. Again, what is your time worth?

Once working, why would I want to DL them again? It does more now than
I'll ever use. Even things like movie searches I saw someone here wishinf
Tivo had.

While I do have a remote for it, I chose to spend $10 for a remote KB
and mouse that can control every aspect of the system. Do you really
want me to get into what else you can do with a Linux PC that you can't
do with the Tivo?

Again, cheapening the experience. MOST people do not want to have to
control their TV with a KB/Mouse.

Then they can use a remote. Why do you call the way I prefer to do it as
cheapening. Perhaps I think you're cheapening the Tivo experience by not
using a unversal remote. So please keep your cheapening remarks to
yourself. So agian, your cheapening the experience. Most people prefer a
unversal remote to control all there A/V devices. IOW's get off you high
horse. You aren't big enough to ride it.

People with weak arguments often result to personal insults. I'm plenty big
enough to ride my high horse, thank you very much. But, that has nothing to
do with it. It is my opinion that using a KB/mouse for controlling live tv
is a cumbersome process when compared to a remote (universal or brand
specific) designed for that purpose.

The Tivo Peanut remote is a very creative design that makes navigation
an easy experience.

BS. It's a cheap piece of crap. That why I never used mine and bought
universal remotes like probably 90% of the people do.

I'm not disputing that a Linux PC can do more than a Tivo. Remember,
though,
that most home users have never touched linux. I personally have a pc
hooked up to a couple of my HDTV's with wireless KB/Mouse, and I like
using it when using PC applications. But, I still prefer the remote for
TV viewing.

Then be all means use the remote. I have both and I prefer the KB.

I've got nothing against your opinions - you are welcome to them. I've
got a problem with you coming around as a Troll to the Tivo group giving
a lopsided sales pitch to the MythTV setup. You'd think you were
getting some kind of commisions from it. I think most home users would
have a very hard time trying to implement the box that you've defined at
$400.

I didn't start all the recent talk about MythTV here. I posted nothing
more than to a link where I did a comparison. Then Op started with the
MythTV questions and comments. If you want to blame someone for this
thread, blame them. the review even requested I be contacted via email.
This NG was not mentined once in the review. And I wouldn't have even done
the review if it wasn'rt welcomed here by certain members. If then I din't
flood the NG with it but put it up on my own server.

Actually, I was the OP that challenged you. It is not just about this post.
It is about your personal vendetta against Tivo and how you constantly troll
this group. I've stated this on numerous occasions, but I want you to fully
understand my position here. I'm not against MythTV. I'm not even going to
claim that Tivo is better than MythTV. I'm sure each has its pro's/con's
that make it a better setup for a given situation. I just think you need to
be more balanced and fair in your comparisons. Your arguments for MythTV
are completely disingenuous.

I've got no desire to put together a public comparision of the two and
publish it.

Then don't bitch about it. I've spent more time replying to this crap than
I did creating the review webpage.

So, take your trolling elsewhere if you don't want to defend your stance.
While people on this group do tend to be biased towards Tivo, they are going
to challenge you when they believe you are making incorrect statements.

And there's yet to be one email stating something is wrong, And if you do
email me with a correction. give me a verifiable link that supports you.
Otherwise, your time and mine would be better spent elsewhere.

I never said that anything in there is incorrect, I've just stated that it
is a lopsided presentation for MythTV. If you really want to do something
like that, you should do it objectively - and that is not objective by any
stretch of the imagination.

There are not a lot of people with a minimal amount of PC or even linux
experience that could start from scratch and build a good working MythTV box
in a short amount of time - especially for the price that you have
presented. To present it as a simple replacement solution for Tivo is doing
a lot of people an injustice.