HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
 

Cable card support ? Yes

Wes, I've already pointed out your bias in that statement.


There's nothing but facts there. There's only 2 answers. I don't know if
there will ever be PC support of cable card (although some here seem to
think so), and that Tivo will support Cable card. Now where is the ****ing
bias?

The bias is clear here. The answer for MythTV should be "no". If
you're going to speculate about what might be added in the future, then
you should go back and put question marks next to most of columns in
your entire comparison. Your responses should be based on what's
available now (or for the S3, at time of initial release).

(HDNet/HDNet Movies,
ESPN/ESPN2 HD, HBO HD, Showtime HD, Discover HD Theater, Universal HD,
TNT HD, to name a few). OTA HD may be enough for you but the majority


I also didn't mention that many of these premium channels are available
OTA, which would have been in the MythTV's favor.

No, Wes the HD channels he stated above are *not* broadcast channels.


And I didn't say they were. I'm tired of this...

Wes, now you're lying, it's in the 2 sentences above. A list of
channels are presented. You state that many of *these* channels are
available. Clearly none of those listed are. So, yes, you did state
it, and it wasn't true.

I.e. they aren't sent OTA. Your beloved USDTV which you've never used,
is only available in *4* western cities in the US, and only supplies the
broadcast networks in HD anyway (notice all of the above list is HD?).
Plus USDTV raises my suspicions, what type of service provides so little
information on their website, they don't even list a channel lineup !?
On top of that, it's not like you can integrate it into mythTV, you'd
have to some sort of lash up with IR blasters which would negate many of
Mythtv's advantages.


Why is everyone bringing up crap that doesn't even pertain to the review?

You brought it up in this very post, I just referred to it earlier in
the post (not in the thread) than you did because I read the whole post
before replying to it.

of TV viewers want more than the broadcast networks (well over half the
US TV owning households have cable and/or satellite).



And from a survey I did, the only reason the majority do have cable or
sat is because they don't know how to get a good clear picture with an
antenna. 3 out of 4 I asked said the only reason for havingt pay tv was
because they couldn't get good recption otherwise.

Please show us the source of this survey, along with proof of it's
statistical accuracy.



That's preprietary info.

Making the entire comment worthless, because you're probably making it
up. Information without review is worthless.

Asking 4 acquaintances does not count as a
survey.


Why not? 4 or 4,000, 000. It still a survey. The margin fo error is
greater though.

Ok, how about this, it is statistically meaningless.

How geographically diverse was this survey, since location is
so critical to reception?


Strictly Dallas area.

Even more statistically meaningless.



Due to CableCard DRM, an open source system like MythTV will never be
able to record those channels digitally.

Not that it matters to me, but you are mistaken. Maybe you haven't seen
the USDTV ads running, offering many premium channels OTA.

but none in HD. We've already been down this road.


So what? They are still premium channels OTA.

The original post clearly stated that Mythtv could not get these
channels in HD. You claimed they could receive it. Since the
discussion was HD reception, now *you* are off topic.

He's not talking about OTA, he's talking about reencoding a signal from
a source like your oft-quoted USDTV. Since you can't pull a native
digital signal from USDTV's required settop box, you'll have to reencode
the analog signal.


Accoring to USDTV, you can. I told them exactly what I had and they
confirmed I could record them. I don't know and don't care. I think I've
made that obvious many times. Again, way away from the comparison where
USDTV isn't even mentioned.

*You* brought it up. If you don't think it's relevent, then don't bring
it up!

Randy S.

HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
 

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:20:53 +0000, Scooby wrote:

"Wes Newell" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 16:20:53 +0000, Scooby wrote:

Uh, Wes,

How's about adding some more fields to that chart, like...

"Appliance"
Tivo - Yes
MythTV - No

Interesting. You find a Tivo computer to be an aplliance, and a MythTV
computer not to be an appliance. Sorry, I just don't agree with that.
Did you happen to miss the very first line? System Type.

Apparently you don't understand what the computer industry considers an
appliance. That is an all in one turn-key device that doesn't need a
custom build, such as a Tivo. A build it yourself box, such as MythTV
does not qualify.

Trivial, but who do you think is going tio plug in the cable cards or the
Externaal HD in if you get any of these. They're both PC's in the end.
Just that the Tivo is preprietary.

"Time to install/setup"
Tivo - 10 Minutes
MythTv - infinite based on knowledge. No less than a few hours (what
is your time worth). Actually, it is probably never "complete".

You can't setup a tivo in 10 minutes. Perhaps you don't remember the
first one you had. Granted it's not rocket science, but It's a lot more
time consuming than that. And how long does the data download take over
the phone? Hours. There's configuration time with it just as there is
with MythTV. And fwiw, basic setup for mythtv is as simple as loading 1
cd onto the drive using knoppmyth. Sure, it takes more time overall,
but it also will do a lot more.


Okay, 10 minutes may be a little low, but not much. I've setup a
handful of these things and it is a pretty quick setup. If the initial
phone call needs to do a big down load, you can just go away and come
back.

IIRC, it took something like 4 hours to first download and process the
data. The unit won't function til that is done, so I sure would consider
that as part of the setup time. I can thow all the parts of the a MythTV
box on the table in less than 10 minutes too, but it's not going to work
until it's setup and configured. So.if you buy a pre configured machine
which can be done from many places, then someone with a little experience
can get it running within the time the tivo is downing the guide data
asssuming it still takes 4 hours over the phone. the proceedure would be
to take the side cover off and stall the tuner cards (10 minutes max).
Plug in the pc, insert knoppmyth CD and boot. Answer the question and let
it go. Total time to install is about 15 minutes iirc. Reboot and
configure the installed software. An experienced person can do that in
anywhere from 15-30 minutes. yep, your tivo is still downloading.:-) Now
this assumes a fast internet connection. I know this doesn't sound right
to you but it's the truth. I've done it enough times here that I know how
long it takes. A first timer will take considerably longer, and if they
are very bright may never get it to work.:-)

The setup in MythTV I am referring to is research of products to use,

So, you didn't research other products when you firs tbought your Tivo? I
know I spent many hours and days looking at the differences bewteen the
Tivo and the Replay before I decided on the Tivo. So I really don't see
why that's even an issue. Just send them to the mythtv newsgroup and I'll
make sure they buy the right stuff in general.

ordering those products, unpacking them and building your system,
downloading the O/S, downloading MythTV, burning CD's for installation,
running the installation procedures, configuring MythTV to work with
your devices, troubleshooting device driver issues.

So who buys your Tivo's for you? And do they come put and unpack them for
you too. You're on the virge of rediculous here. And you only have to dl
one file, an ISO image. It's ll find and configure everything for you
mostly. Might have proiblems, but it's not near as bad as you might want
some to beleive. And it probably won't be as easy for OP as I've outlined
either. Still, it's not real hard.

Now, you've made it well known that you had some video card issues. I'd
really like to know the total time you've put into all of the above.

I didn't have any video card card issues. I did have some tuner card
issues and installing MythTV since I wanted the cards and the backend
server on my current server that's on 24/7 anyway. That and the fact that
the original card I bouight was new and didn't have kernel support yet. It
was supported in cvs, but the driver didn;'t make it into the kernel build
until 2.6.14. I put a lot of time into it, and a lot of it was time that
most people will never spend since dvb in linix has advanced so quickly.

I'll say again - what is your time worth? Maybe your time isn't worth
much, but I'd rather pay a little more an appliance than to fight
through that.

Well, If I could have bought a 4 tuner HD recorder that does what I can do
now, I'd have bought it too. But you can't. My original plan was to just
build a new box and put it in the bedroom. After seeing other options I
decide to use my server for the backend server and frontend machines in
other locations over ethernet. In the end I'm glad I did.

I've actually considered building a MythTV box myself,
but more for a learning experience and to evaluate it. I certainly
wouldn't do that to save a few bucks and neither would most people that
are just trying to improve their viewing experience.

Well, you can build a single HD tuner system on the cheap for probably
$150-$200 using a used PC. Help always in the mythtv NG.

Well, Wes. I just think you are really cheapening the experience. Most
people that would pay for a device such as a Tivo or a MythTV box are
trying to increase their viewing pleasure. Using 19" VGA monitors does
not do that.

It does for me. I originally had a 19" analog TV in my room I watched.
When I got the wife a new 32" I moved here 25 into my room. I took it out
soon after and put the 19" back in. Some people just don't prefer large
screens at close viewing. I'm one of them. My wife is not. That's why she
watches tv on hers and I watch it on mine.:-) And trust me, just going
from analog to digital alone is a huge difference in the clarity of the
picture. AFAIC, HD is just a minor improvement compared to a crystal clear
regular digital picture. I did go out and buy an ATSC tuner for my wife's
tv. And even though it's only SD, the picture is so much better compared
to the analog signals we get out here.

It is not all about cost - for most people.

Hmmm.... So I can see you weren't living on the streets when you were 14.

Also, I would say that most people that would pay for one of these
devices would also pay for TV service as well. It seems to me that you
are spending a whole lot of trouble for a setup that gets a limited
amount of service.

There's more on OTA TV than I can watch. Why do you think I have a 4 tuner
recorder. And why would I want more.:-) I just want to watch TV on my
terms. And when I want to watch it, not when I'm forced to by broadcast
times. And I want a clear picture. OTA digital recording does all that I
want.

Also, consider that your PC monitor is not a 16x9 format.

And thank goodness it isn't as most shows are still in SD and would be a
lot smaller if it were. using the fill mode all rpogramimg, SD or HD fills
the screen. HD fills by doing a 16:9 zoom. great picture and there's
nothing on the sides but logo's anyway.


If you are viewing HD programming on there, you are either seeing it
squished to
fit the screen, or in widescreen, which would have a much smaller
viewing area than 19". HDTV should be viewed on a widescreen tv for
best viewing experience.

Squished? There's nothing squished or stretched the way I watch it, HD or
SD. About the only time I switch to a 16:9 format is watching sports. At
all other times, they really nothing to be missed on the outer edges of
HD.
There is a trade off, but rarely has there been an update that people
don't want with the Tivo software.

Come on now. I've seen hundreds of gripes in theis group about some of the
so called new features from updates.

I'll take the all in one provided updates rather than having to worry
about O/S, MythTV, driver updates.

What's to upate? It either works or it doesn't. If it works today, it'll
still work 10 years from now. There's no need to update. it's ac choice.
And I think you can get auto udates thru CVS if you want them. I don't so
I haven't checked it out.

Having to download them and install. Again, what is your time worth?

Once working, why would I want to DL them again? It does more now than
I'll ever use. Even things like movie searches I saw someone here wishinf
Tivo had.

While I do have a remote for it, I chose to spend $10 for a remote KB
and mouse that can control every aspect of the system. Do you really
want me to get into what else you can do with a Linux PC that you can't
do with the Tivo?


Again, cheapening the experience. MOST people do not want to have to
control their TV with a KB/Mouse.

Then they can use a remote. Why do you call the way I prefer to do it as
cheapening. Perhaps I think you're cheapening the Tivo experience by not
using a unversal remote. So please keep your cheapening remarks to
yourself. So agian, your cheapening the experience. Most people prefer a
unversal remote to control all there A/V devices. IOW's get off you high
horse. You aren't big enough to ride it.


The Tivo Peanut remote is a very creative design that makes navigation
an easy experience.

BS. It's a cheap piece of crap. That why I never used mine and bought
universal remotes like probably 90% of the people do.

I'm not disputing that a Linux PC can do more than a Tivo. Remember,
though,
that most home users have never touched linux. I personally have a pc
hooked up to a couple of my HDTV's with wireless KB/Mouse, and I like
using it when using PC applications. But, I still prefer the remote for
TV viewing.

Then be all means use the remote. I have both and I prefer the KB.

I've got nothing against your opinions - you are welcome to them. I've
got a problem with you coming around as a Troll to the Tivo group giving
a lopsided sales pitch to the MythTV setup. You'd think you were
getting some kind of commisions from it. I think most home users would
have a very hard time trying to implement the box that you've defined at
$400.

I didn't start all the recent talk about MythTV here. I posted nothing
more than to a link where I did a comparison. Then Op started with the
MythTV questions and comments. If you want to blame someone for this
thread, blame them. the review even requested I be contacted via email.
This NG was not mentined once in the review. And I wouldn't have even done
the review if it wasn'rt welcomed here by certain members. If then I din't
flood the NG with it but put it up on my own server.

I've got no desire to put together a public comparision of the two and
publish it.

Then don't bitch about it. I've spent more time replying to this crap than
I did creating the review webpage.

And there's yet to be one email stating something is wrong, And if you do
email me with a correction. give me a verifiable link that supports you.
Otherwise, your time and mine would be better spent elsewhere.

--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php

HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
 

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:23:41 +0000, Chris Adams wrote:

Once upon a time, Wes Newell said:
Then you can't read.

Cable card support ? Yes

Read what I said (that you cut out); since CableCard has heavy DRM
restrictions, MythTV (or any other open source software) cannot support
CableCard. Putting a "?" in there is wrong; it should be a "No".

Well, at the time, I didn't know. I was about to change it to no when
another person from the group said there is likely to be cable card
support, so until *I* know, the "?" is a proper entry. perhaps you need to
learn what a "?" means.:-)

Also, under tuner comparison, you listed MythTV as "Any", which is
wrong. MythTV can support NTSC, ATSC, and some types of unencrypted
digital cable (the only unencrypted channels on the cable here are the
copies of the OTA channels).

Any refers to any type that plugs into a PC. That includes, ntsc, atsc,
qam, and ANY others I don't know about. I'm not even going to get into
your other crap.

(HDNet/HDNet Movies,
ESPN/ESPN2 HD, HBO HD, Showtime HD, Discover HD Theater, Universal HD,
TNT HD, to name a few). OTA HD may be enough for you but the majority

I also didn't mention that many of these premium channels are available
OTA, which would have been in the MythTV's favor.

Yawn, we've been down this path before. A few cable networks are
offered in a handful of markets OTA in standard definition. None are
available in HD OTA. Since several of the channels I named are HD only
(HDNet/HDNet Movies, Discover HD Theater, Universal HD), their content
is not available OTA.

Your first listing of ESPN didn't have HD behind it. You need to be more
specific. The fact is that I know you can get premium channels here OTA. I
don't know (or care) if you can or can in the future get them in HD.
Likely, that may happen. I chose not to bring it up. You chose to bring it
up. Had you formed your remark properly like ESPN-HD, or HD-ESPN I might
not have overlooked the HD part behind. But siince you didn't and I saw
one that wasn't designated as HD I assume you meant all premium channels.

--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php

HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
 

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 10:59:16 -0500, Jeff Rife wrote:

Wes Newell ) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 18:41:11 -0500, Jeff Rife wrote:

Well, you could get a very nice 20" 1600x1200 Dell LCD (that can actually
display all 1600x1200 pixels, unlike your monitor) for less than $500 the
next time they go on sale. Or, you could get a 19" 1280x1024 (which
*still* has more real resolution than your monitor) for $300.

Are you drunk? I said my $69 19" CRT monitor runs at 1600x1200
non-interlaced.

Yes, it can accept that scan rate. No, it cannot display 1600x1200
unique pixels. You can believe it does all you want, but that doesn't
make it so.

And now I'm real curious how you came to that conclusion. So, you must be
saying that 1280x1024 monitor won't really do 1280x1024 either then, or
that a 640x400 monitor won't really do 640x 400. Can you explain this?

Why in the hell would I want to spend $300 for one with less capability.

Because the actual resolution on that "1600x1200" 19" monitor is about
1000x800, if you bother to measure it (or cared).

Wow, if it doesn't display the pixels it says it does, what happens when i
get down to 1x1? is that really -10x-10? :-) You have to be on something.:-)

FWIW, I've dragged the mouse pointer from 1 across to close to 1600. I
thinkt it stopped at abot 1590 something. Was it lying to me too:-)
I also just did it on this 1024x768 monitor and guess what. It shows it as
1024x768 too. Please tell me how I can get these monitors to quit lying
to me.:-)

And i don't want an LCD monitor or TV of any kind, even if the
price were the same as the crt.

Some of us want actual quality from our video...not just the cheapest
thing available.

hmmmm. I guess you missed the part about the price being the same.:-)
In my opinion, a CRT just displays better than LCD.

--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php

HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
 

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:13:19 -0500, Randy S. wrote:


I didn't review how well it worked, only that it's going to support cable
card. If you think it's not going to I can say no in the review. Then
others can come back and bitch. Get over it.

WTF? Of course it's going to support cableCARD, that's the whole point,
there's very little speculation in that. The *severe* speculation is
yours when you mark "?" for Mythtv cableCARD support. We know the
answer for that even without speculating, and the answer is *no*.

Well, you might certainly think that, but unless you really have a crystal
ball, and not crystal balls, you can't predict the future any better than
Jeff that that thinks there might be. I'll admit I don't know. And the
proper response to that is a "?", not a no.

--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php

HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
 

On 2006-02-11, Wes Newell wrote:
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:13:19 -0500, Randy S. wrote:


I didn't review how well it worked, only that it's going to support cable
card. If you think it's not going to I can say no in the review. Then
others can come back and bitch. Get over it.

WTF? Of course it's going to support cableCARD, that's the whole point,
there's very little speculation in that. The *severe* speculation is
yours when you mark "?" for Mythtv cableCARD support. We know the
answer for that even without speculating, and the answer is *no*.

Well, you might certainly think that, but unless you really have a crystal
ball, and not crystal balls, you can't predict the future any better than
Jeff that that thinks there might be. I'll admit I don't know. And the
proper response to that is a "?", not a no.

If you're going to be a jackass about it, then a lot more of your MythTV
columns should be changed. You should change the "System Type", "Guide
data length", "Internet", "RF inputs", etc. to "?" since there is always a
chance these things could change in the future.

Not putting a No in the "Cable card support" for MythTV is simply
misleading (one could even make the agrument that it's wrong and a lie).

--
This is my .sig

HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
 

Wes Newell ) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
Yes, it can accept that scan rate. No, it cannot display 1600x1200
unique pixels. You can believe it does all you want, but that doesn't
make it so.

And now I'm real curious how you came to that conclusion. So, you must be
saying that 1280x1024 monitor won't really do 1280x1024 either then, or
that a 640x400 monitor won't really do 640x 400. Can you explain this?

There are no 19" CRT monitors that can fully resolve 1600x1200 and that
also cost less than $500. Do some research.

Because the actual resolution on that "1600x1200" 19" monitor is about
1000x800, if you bother to measure it (or cared).

Wow, if it doesn't display the pixels it says it does, what happens when i
get down to 1x1?

Pixels smear over each other. Display a resolution chart and you'll
see.

FWIW, I've dragged the mouse pointer from 1 across to close to 1600. I
thinkt it stopped at abot 1590 something. Was it lying to me too:-)
I also just did it on this 1024x768 monitor and guess what. It shows it as
1024x768 too. Please tell me how I can get these monitors to quit lying
to me.:-)

Just because the scan rate can put out 1600x1200 doesn't mean that you
can see and resolve that many pixels.

In my opinion, a CRT just displays better than LCD.

Your opinion is pretty much worthless (especially about display quality),
based on everything you have written about how little you care for quality
and only care about how little you spent.

--
Jeff Rife |
| http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/AngryTVGod.gif

HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
 

Wes Newell wrote:

"Appliance"
Tivo - Yes
MythTV - No

Interesting. You find a Tivo computer to be an aplliance, and a MythTV
computer not to be an appliance. Sorry, I just don't agree with that.

An appliance is something you can buy off the shelf.
It comes with a warrantee and reliable company that stands behind it.

MythTV is not an appliance.
-Joe

HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
 

On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 01:19:07 -0500, Jeff Rife wrote:

Wes Newell ) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
Yes, it can accept that scan rate. No, it cannot display 1600x1200
unique pixels. You can believe it does all you want, but that doesn't
make it so.

And now I'm real curious how you came to that conclusion. So, you must be
saying that 1280x1024 monitor won't really do 1280x1024 either then, or
that a 640x400 monitor won't really do 640x 400. Can you explain this?

There are no 19" CRT monitors that can fully resolve 1600x1200 and that
also cost less than $500. Do some research.

Well, I don't know how to respond to this other than you're full of crap.

Because the actual resolution on that "1600x1200" 19" monitor is
about 1000x800, if you bother to measure it (or cared).

Wow, if it doesn't display the pixels it says it does, what happens
when i get down to 1x1?

Pixels smear over each other. Display a resolution chart and you'll
see.

FWIW, I've dragged the mouse pointer from 1 across to close to 1600. I
thinkt it stopped at abot 1590 something. Was it lying to me too:-) I
also just did it on this 1024x768 monitor and guess what. It shows it
as 1024x768 too. Please tell me how I can get these monitors to quit
lying to me.:-)

Just because the scan rate can put out 1600x1200 doesn't mean that you
can see and resolve that many pixels.

WTF does that mean. Hell no I can't see each individual pixel, They're too
small for my old eyes. That doesn't mean they aren't there. I can see them
with a magnifying glass though. But if you think I'm going to try and
count 1600 across the screeen, you're nuts. I trust that the computer
isn't lying to me when it says I'm in 1600x1200 mode. And you know what,
it isn't. I can switch between all resolution and see the difference in
the display using Cntrl-ALt-(+/-) in Linux. I can also look in the config
file and see all the modelines and options. i don't know where you come up
with your crap other than pull it out of your butt.

In my opinion, a CRT just displays better than LCD.

Your opinion is pretty much worthless (especially about display
quality), based on everything you have written about how little you care
for quality and only care about how little you spent.

Ah, since I'm a smart shopper, my opinions are worthless. Now I know how
you think. Just like my 16 year old neice that would pay $200 for the same
dress she could get at Target for $50.

--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php

HDTV MythTV and HD Tivo series 3 compared.
 

Never heard of foxton.
I think it's only in server chips from intel. It allows the OS to
throttle the processor when it wants. I believe Linux is a leader in
its implementation(!).

That's already been done. Why reinvent the wheel. And it's still
illegal.:-)

Hmm, I don't recall signing an agreement when I bought the HARDWARE,
only when buying the service. As Apple found out with the ipod, you
generally can't get away with selling hardware and then forcing people
to buy your service. Can you post a credible link of the litigation?
I'm inclined to think this is urban legand.

Even
a lazy celeron will cost you 50+ watts on the input power (more then the
whole Tivo S2).

Recording 4 HD shows at once, my cpu uses 35W.

Precisely! I'm guessing your tuners have hardware accelleration for
the video. What % of CPU is being used? Now image if the processor
was only 1W. Your 35 watt processor is no doubt over 50W on the power
cord once you figure in the efficiency of the processor VRM and front
end power supply. BTW how did you measure this? Do the new BIOS allow
for measurement?

People tend to not always judge total cost of ownership very
accurately. I work in the IT industry designing power (which is why I
obsess on this power thing). The cost of a PC supply is about $15, but
over its life, it will burn anywhere from $30-$150 of power. Now ask a
corporate user if he will spend an extra $3 per PC to get its
efficiency from 65% to 80% and the answer will be no! More at
http://www.80plus.org/ . For something like a PVR (myth or Tivo), the
cost of electrical power will be a major factor until they can
implement some type of meaningful power management. This cannot be
ignored in a cost of ownership analysis.