A few thoughts about labour rates and Mr Dot
 

From: "Bill Wright"

Subject: A few points about labour rates and Mr Dot



Thanks to everyone who has responded to Mr Dot's criticisms. He seems to be
in a minority of one.



The labour rate issue is quite complicated of course. Firstly there's the
'supply and demand' argument. In a capitalist society most individuals and
institutions charge what the market will stand. They might say they don't of
course, but really they do. This is why prices fluctuate. The morality of
this argument is another matter, of course, but I'm afraid that that this is
a bad old world. Many people would have no doubts at all about the morality
of it. Some would be certain it was good and some would be certain it was
bad. I'm not an economist, but I think that the 'supply and demand' argument
is generally accepted as a very important factor in pricing. Certainly the
alternative of 'costs plus profits' seems to be part of a bygone age.



Like everyone else, my rates are influenced by the market in this way. If I
had to charge less to get work I would do so and accept a lower standard of
living. If I noticed that everyone else was charging more I would adjust my
prices upwards. Anyone who thinks that's wrong must also be opposed to the
trade union movement, which exists primarily to improve the bargaining
position of its members by creating labour cartels. Since I turn work down
regularly because I haven't time to do it, I should logically adjust my
prices upwards until supply and demand were in balance. So why don't I? I
think it's simply that it's reassuring to feel that the customers are
unarguably getting a good deal, and it's also reassuring to have to turn
work down! There's a margin of error, and I personally prefer to err
slightly on the low side in this respect.



Of course, individuals in any occupation might be able to charge more than
the average because employing them is particularly attractive to a potential
customer. A tradesman or professional with a reputation for honesty,
competence, and efficiency might well be able to charge a premium. Look at
the charges of successful barristers for instance. A tradesman who has to
turn work down has the confidence to name his price and stick to it. This is
why I will never negotiate on a price once I've named it. Tied in with this
is the question of advertising. Our only paid advert is a small one in the
Yellow Pages. It cost £400 per year, compared with the £2,000 that some
installers pay. The vast majority of our customers are repeat business or
recommendations.



I don't know where the £50 per hour figure originated. I think Mr Dot simply
divided the gross cost of the job by the number of hours, without first
deducting the cost of the materials. That is clearly absurd. Of course,
there are also overheads to deduct, and hours spent contributing to that job
that were outside the actual site visit. These would include loading and
unloading the van, doing the paperwork, going to the wholesalers, and of
course pushing the groaning wheelbarrow to the bank laden with cash.



I'm quite happy to discuss the details of my labour rates. I charge £65
(plus mileage above 12 miles at 75p per mile) for the first hour on site,
and £35 per hour thereafter. I look for a minimum gross profit of £300 per
day. This would mean, by Mr Dot's logic, that I would be earning £75,000 per
annum. Unfortunately, even though I work about 55 hours a week (about 35
hours on site) and Hil works for me almost full time, I don't earn anything
like that. The apparent shortfall, of course, is due to down-time and
overheads. As an example, my insurance bill for last year was £3,500.



Leaving aside the question of whether a gross profit of £300 will provide
sufficient income, there is the issue of whether or not people are prepared
to pay it. I am frequently asked to visit a site simply to advise the owner
about the existing TV system, or about the pros and cons of having a new
one, or whatever. This is rather grandly called 'consultancy'. In most cases
the visit takes a day and writing the report takes another day, in which
case I would ask for £600 + VAT. No-one ever seems to think this is too
much. In fact a recent customer, having received my report, strongly
suggested that I was underselling myself. Now I'm dealing here with people
who live in the real world and generally know the value of things, so I'm
more inclined to believe them than I am to believe Mr Dot.



So what's the difference between a 'tradesman' and a 'professional'? I don't
think we should worry too much about semantics. I suppose many occupations
have practitioners who can only be regarded as tradesmen and also those who
are truly professional. There are many in the 'professions' who are
charlatans and many in the 'trades' who are truly professional. Maybe it's a
grey area. I do like to think that I have a professional attitude though. I
do like things to be 'right'. I've always told my kids, whatever job you do,
however lowly, give it your best shot and do the work properly. To me that
is what being professional is, so even someone doing really basic tasks can
take pride in doing them in a professional manner. I do fully understand
though how difficult that can be for workers who regard themselves as
exploited. When I was a teacher I was automatically classed as a
professional, and in that context it always seemed to me that a professional
would receive a fixed salary and then do whatever the job demanded, without
regard for hourly rates. Of course, that was then. Teaching isn't like that
now.



Assuming that Mr Dot isn't in fact a rich aerial rigger having a laugh at
our expense I do rather get the impression that he is very envious of
skilled tradesmen. He must want to be one, because he believes it to be a
way to get rich quick, and he is obviously very concerned about money. So
why doesn't he do it? I can only think that he lacks the drive or
self-confidence to become self-employed. Possibly he can't drive. His
attitude to profits and his unrealistic figures suggests that he is employed
on a very low hourly rate. Presumably he is an unskilled worker of some
sort. It could be that his lack of social skill is holding him back. I mean
to say, on present evidence how do you think he would fare in a job
interview? Ha!



Bill

A few thoughts about labour rates and Mr Dot
 

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
From: "Bill Wright"

Subject: A few points about labour rates and Mr Dot



Thanks to everyone who has responded to Mr Dot's criticisms. He seems to
be in a minority of one.


I snipped your considered thoughts on this as they will be there for
everyone to read. I agree totally with everything you said about your
work/costs/charges/professionalism. If I lived in the Sheffield area and
needed work done on TV/aerial/satellite you would be my first and only
choice. What you didn't mention in your thoughts about labour rates is the
"free" jobs you do from time to time for some of the more vulnerable
members of our society.

If I may make one criticism. it is about your website. Albert did you proud
with "Our History" but "coming soon" has appeared forever for the 60s, 70s,
80s, 90s etc.

JohnT

A few thoughts about labour rates and Mr Dot
 

"JohnT" wrote in message
...
If I may make one criticism. it is about your website. Albert did you
proud with "Our History" but "coming soon" has appeared forever for the
60s, 70s, 80s, 90s etc.

Oh I know, don't remind me. Look, you've spurred me on. When I've finished
the current little writing project I'll start on the website again. I've got
tons of material to go on there, but I'll look at the 'Our History' section
first. I will. I promise. Honestly.

Bill

A few thoughts about labour rates and Mr Dot
 

"JohnT" wrote in message
...

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
From: "Bill Wright"

Subject: A few points about labour rates and Mr Dot



Thanks to everyone who has responded to Mr Dot's criticisms. He seems to
be in a minority of one.


I snipped your considered thoughts on this as they will be there for
everyone to read. I agree totally with everything you said about your
work/costs/charges/professionalism. If I lived in the Sheffield area and
needed work done on TV/aerial/satellite you would be my first and only
choice. What you didn't mention in your thoughts about labour rates is the
"free" jobs you do from time to time for some of the more vulnerable
members of our society.

If I may make one criticism. it is about your website. Albert did you
proud with "Our History" but "coming soon" has appeared forever for the
60s, 70s, 80s, 90s etc.

JohnT


Yeah....and the rogues gallery seems to have ground to a halt. I check it
every few days but alas it never changes nowadays.

I mean c'mon Bill, what with your £75,000 a year earnings you should be able
to pay someone to keep this ship shape.

A few thoughts about labour rates and Mr Dot
 

"-GB-Carpy" wrote in message
. uk...

I mean c'mon Bill, what with your £75,000 a year earnings you should be
able to pay someone to keep this ship shape.

Yeah but no but yeah but no but . . . .

Bill

A few thoughts about labour rates and Mr Dot
 

Bill Wright wrote:

my insurance bill for last year was £3,500.

Blood and sand! I thought they stung IT companies enough, they've
obviously done a search on

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=be...ech.digital-tv

And thought beer + ladders = £££ :-P

A few thoughts about labour rates and Mr Dot
 

On 8-Jan-2006, "Bill Wright" wrote:

From: "Bill Wright"

Thanks to everyone who has responded to Mr Dot's criticisms. He seems to
be
in a minority of one.


Most definately. He doesn't seem to understand the fact that goods are cheap
and services are expensive.

Snip

Assuming that Mr Dot isn't in fact a rich aerial rigger having a laugh at
our expense

Oh I think that we can all safely assume that he's not a "professional"
aerial rigger. Though if he was, I would suspect he's likely to be of the
"Bodgit & Scarper" variety, as mentioned by others here, or perhaps he's a
Sky installer?!.

I do rather get the impression that he is very envious of
skilled tradesmen. He must want to be one, because he believes it to be a
way to get rich quick, and he is obviously very concerned about money. So
why doesn't he do it? I can only think that he lacks the drive or
self-confidence to become self-employed. Possibly he can't drive. His
attitude to profits and his unrealistic figures suggests that he is
employed
on a very low hourly rate. Presumably he is an unskilled worker of some
sort. It could be that his lack of social skill is holding him back. I
mean
to say, on present evidence how do you think he would fare in a job
interview? Ha!

Bill, if you have a look at the thread on "Aerial Splitters" at uk.d-i-y, Mr
Dot claims that he is a "house renovator" who owns his own roofing ladders,
so my guess would be that he works in the building trade. However, I like to
think that he's just an unemployed fantasist who spends his days watching
daytime DIY programs via his self-installed tv aerial. Either way, he's
certainly not worth bothering about.

A few thoughts about labour rates and Mr Dot
 

Andy Burns wrote:

Bill Wright wrote:

my insurance bill for last year was £3,500.


Blood and sand! I thought they stung IT companies enough, they've
obviously done a search on

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=be...ech.digital-tv

And thought beer + ladders = £££ :-P


Employers Liability insurance for employees to work off ladders in
Northern Ireland is £18,000 p/a...

Regards
Glenn...

A few thoughts about labour rates and Mr Dot
 

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
Bill Wright wrote:

my insurance bill for last year was £3,500.

Blood and sand! I thought they stung IT companies enough, they've
obviously done a search on

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=be...ech.digital-tv

And thought beer + ladders = £££ :-P

Argh! You don't mean to tell me someone saves all these newsgroup messages!
I thought I was safe from future recrimination!

Err, actually I'm not Bill Wright, I'm Mr Dot. Bill Wright doesn't exist,
except in my tortured imagination. I'm not Bill Wright, I'm a ****** from
Nottingham.

Mr Dot

A few thoughts about labour rates and Mr Dot
 

wrote in message
...
Bill, if you have a look at the thread on "Aerial Splitters" at uk.d-i-y,
Mr
Dot claims that he is a "house renovator" who owns his own roofing
ladders,
so my guess would be that he works in the building trade. However, I like
to
think that he's just an unemployed fantasist who spends his days watching
daytime DIY programs via his self-installed tv aerial. Either way, he's
certainly not worth bothering about.

Thanks for that

Bill