Bob Miller wrote in
:


In a few months we will be testing with what looks like a normal cell
phone but with what looks like an antenna from a few years ago about
1.4
inches.
Goodie. In a few months please present us with third independent groups
scientific comparision of the results.


Who could possibly think that the US will go on for any period of time
with ancient and ridiculously outmoded modulation such as 8-VSB? It is
insane on the face of it. To saddle the public with cost, hassles and
denial of the use of their spectrum for what?

An who could possibly think that the US would want to change the
modulation scheme at this point in time? It would mean that the HDTV OTA
product/customer market would get smashed. Would stations want to
broadcast in both formats? In most cases, hell no. Will current people
that are getting OTA want to have to change their equipment again, no
way.
If the US was starting form zero on selection of a method of OTA
transmission, your points might be valid. We are past that now. It would
be like the DIVX folks saying that their DVD disk/service is better and
oh yeah, you have to buy our equipment now because we are telling you it
is better. Sorry (but not reallY) that you bought that other new standard
equipment a few months ago.
And that my friend ****es poeple off that someone wants to change a NEW
standard. Unless you are willing to give the boardcasters new equipment
and give current OTA customers new reception equipment and the service
away for free. Is that the plan? Or do you just want people to buy what
you sell and that you say is better?
Gag man, peddle your wares elsewhere.

Steve Bryan wrote:

"Bob Miller" wrote in message link.net...

...
I DISAGREE with you about the percolating out of the information on HDTV.
Information about HDTV has percolated out. The information is that it is a
hassle and it is too expensive. Now the expense part is coming down so sales
are increasing for the HDTV sets but the hassle part is still there for OTA
reception.

... People will buy the HDTV sets and wait for cable or
satellite. OTA is going nowhere.


Well, this exercise was amusing for a while but I have to confess its
surrealistic aspect has grown too weird. Every day you repeat your
mantra that 8-VSB modulation renders OTA HDTV unworkable in the US and
every day I have four or five HD programs available throughout most
of prime time. A wealth of football and other sporting events again
available in HD for free and you keep up the drum beat that it is
better everywhere else in the world (UK, Germany, Japan, Australia,
and China). Of course none of them have free HDTV like we have already
but evidence like that has to be reinterpreted.

All I really was trying to report was that the claim that OTA HDTV
using the current system does not work is demonstrably false in my
case. It works well for me and clearly it works for many others who
have also posted messages here. For others I don't know if it will
work for you or not. I'm curious but not involved. All I'd say is
don't assume it is broken because that claim is plain false. Keep in
mind if you get it working the signal is free and the picture is
spectacular. Enjoy.

HDTV is free and available in Australia. It will be in Japan in December.

While our US modulation system, 8-VSB, works for some it is not working
as a successful modulation for our DTV transition in the US. The
receivers are too expensive and do not work plug and play, require a
rooftop antenna and rotor in most cases, have drop out problems due to
multipath and the simple fact is that no one is buying them. 8-VSB has
failed.

Other countries have opted for HDTV or SDTV. That choice is separate
from the choice of modulation. I suggest that whether they have chosen
HD or SD they will be in all cases far more successful than the US in
their digital transition OTA because they picked a modulation that
offers less expensive receivers that work for all not just 65% of the
population and work in a wider number of circumstances, mobile and portable.

8-VSB was poorly designed to JUST barely replace NTSC and it fails even
at that. The various versions of COFDM were designed to fix the problems
of reception that plagued NTSC and they have succeeded. COFDM was
designed for the future.

Steve Bryan wrote:

"Bob Miller" wrote in message link.net...

...
I DISAGREE with you about the percolating out of the information on HDTV.
Information about HDTV has percolated out. The information is that it is a
hassle and it is too expensive. Now the expense part is coming down so sales
are increasing for the HDTV sets but the hassle part is still there for OTA
reception.

... People will buy the HDTV sets and wait for cable or
satellite. OTA is going nowhere.


Well, this exercise was amusing for a while but I have to confess its
surrealistic aspect has grown too weird. Every day you repeat your
mantra that 8-VSB modulation renders OTA HDTV unworkable in the US and
every day I have four or five HD programs available throughout most
of prime time. A wealth of football and other sporting events again
available in HD for free and you keep up the drum beat that it is
better everywhere else in the world (UK, Germany, Japan, Australia,
and China). Of course none of them have free HDTV like we have already
but evidence like that has to be reinterpreted.

All I really was trying to report was that the claim that OTA HDTV
using the current system does not work is demonstrably false in my
case. It works well for me and clearly it works for many others who
have also posted messages here. For others I don't know if it will
work for you or not. I'm curious but not involved. All I'd say is
don't assume it is broken because that claim is plain false. Keep in
mind if you get it working the signal is free and the picture is
spectacular. Enjoy.

HDTV is free and available in Australia. It will be in Japan in December.

While our US modulation system, 8-VSB, works for some it is not working
as a successful modulation for our DTV transition in the US. The
receivers are too expensive and do not work plug and play, require a
rooftop antenna and rotor in most cases, have drop out problems due to
multipath and the simple fact is that no one is buying them. 8-VSB has
failed.

Other countries have opted for HDTV or SDTV. That choice is separate
from the choice of modulation. I suggest that whether they have chosen
HD or SD they will be in all cases far more successful than the US in
their digital transition OTA because they picked a modulation that
offers less expensive receivers that work for all not just 65% of the
population and work in a wider number of circumstances, mobile and portable.

8-VSB was poorly designed to JUST barely replace NTSC and it fails even
at that. The various versions of COFDM were designed to fix the problems
of reception that plagued NTSC and they have succeeded. COFDM was
designed for the future.

Bulk Daddy wrote:

Bob Miller wrote in
:


In a few months we will be testing with what looks like a normal cell
phone but with what looks like an antenna from a few years ago about
1.4
inches.

Goodie. In a few months please present us with third independent groups
scientific comparision of the results.

Nokia, NEC, Panasonic, Sanyo and Sony are doing that now. Many others
have this in the works but have not announced yet. Sony's DTV OTA
receiver is the size of a postage stamp and uses 150 mW of power. The
antenna is 1.4 inches and is omni. Think of that next time your rotor on
that 30 ft. antenna has a problem.

http://www.dtg.org.uk/news/world/-sony_dtt_rx.htm


Who could possibly think that the US will go on for any period of time
with ancient and ridiculously outmoded modulation such as 8-VSB? It is
insane on the face of it. To saddle the public with cost, hassles and
denial of the use of their spectrum for what?


An who could possibly think that the US would want to change the
modulation scheme at this point in time? It would mean that the HDTV OTA
product/customer market would get smashed. Would stations want to
broadcast in both formats? In most cases, hell no. Will current people
that are getting OTA want to have to change their equipment again, no
way.

Many CURRENT HDTV early adopters buy the latest 8-VSB receiver in the
vain hope that it will be a little better than the one they have. This
has led to boast by some that they have as many as 12 OTA 8-VSB
receivers which deflates the already low number of households who have
OTA DTV.

In a sense these suckers are/have been getting smashed every time they
buy one more 8-vSB receiver.

As to stations wanting to broadcast in both. No. All stations would drop
8-VSB in a second if COFDM was optional.

If the US was starting form zero on selection of a method of OTA
transmission, your points might be valid. We are past that now. It would
be like the DIVX folks saying that their DVD disk/service is better and
oh yeah, you have to buy our equipment now because we are telling you it
is better. Sorry (but not really) that you bought that other new standard
equipment a few months ago.
And that my friend ****es people off that someone wants to change a NEW
standard. Unless you are willing to give the broadcasters new equipment
and give current OTA customers new reception equipment and the service
away for free. Is that the plan? Or do you just want people to buy what
you sell and that you say is better?
Gag man, peddle your wares elsewhere.

The simple fact is that we are not past it. We are stalled, going
nowhere. And the "new standard" will be available here anyway on
spectrum at auction. So people will be buying another receiver anyway.

No need to give broadcasters equipment. Many of them supported COFDM in
the beginning and secretly wish they were able to use it now. Those who
openly argued for COFDM included ABC, NBC, Pappas, Sinclair and Granite.
Sinclair, Granite and Pappas offered to do just as you say, give free
receivers to those who had bought 8-VSB receivers in their coverage area.

Bulk Daddy wrote:

Bob Miller wrote in
:


In a few months we will be testing with what looks like a normal cell
phone but with what looks like an antenna from a few years ago about
1.4
inches.

Goodie. In a few months please present us with third independent groups
scientific comparision of the results.

Nokia, NEC, Panasonic, Sanyo and Sony are doing that now. Many others
have this in the works but have not announced yet. Sony's DTV OTA
receiver is the size of a postage stamp and uses 150 mW of power. The
antenna is 1.4 inches and is omni. Think of that next time your rotor on
that 30 ft. antenna has a problem.

http://www.dtg.org.uk/news/world/-sony_dtt_rx.htm


Who could possibly think that the US will go on for any period of time
with ancient and ridiculously outmoded modulation such as 8-VSB? It is
insane on the face of it. To saddle the public with cost, hassles and
denial of the use of their spectrum for what?


An who could possibly think that the US would want to change the
modulation scheme at this point in time? It would mean that the HDTV OTA
product/customer market would get smashed. Would stations want to
broadcast in both formats? In most cases, hell no. Will current people
that are getting OTA want to have to change their equipment again, no
way.

Many CURRENT HDTV early adopters buy the latest 8-VSB receiver in the
vain hope that it will be a little better than the one they have. This
has led to boast by some that they have as many as 12 OTA 8-VSB
receivers which deflates the already low number of households who have
OTA DTV.

In a sense these suckers are/have been getting smashed every time they
buy one more 8-vSB receiver.

As to stations wanting to broadcast in both. No. All stations would drop
8-VSB in a second if COFDM was optional.

If the US was starting form zero on selection of a method of OTA
transmission, your points might be valid. We are past that now. It would
be like the DIVX folks saying that their DVD disk/service is better and
oh yeah, you have to buy our equipment now because we are telling you it
is better. Sorry (but not really) that you bought that other new standard
equipment a few months ago.
And that my friend ****es people off that someone wants to change a NEW
standard. Unless you are willing to give the broadcasters new equipment
and give current OTA customers new reception equipment and the service
away for free. Is that the plan? Or do you just want people to buy what
you sell and that you say is better?
Gag man, peddle your wares elsewhere.

The simple fact is that we are not past it. We are stalled, going
nowhere. And the "new standard" will be available here anyway on
spectrum at auction. So people will be buying another receiver anyway.

No need to give broadcasters equipment. Many of them supported COFDM in
the beginning and secretly wish they were able to use it now. Those who
openly argued for COFDM included ABC, NBC, Pappas, Sinclair and Granite.
Sinclair, Granite and Pappas offered to do just as you say, give free
receivers to those who had bought 8-VSB receivers in their coverage area.

Bob Miller wrote:

HDTV is free and available in Australia. It will be in Japan in December.

While our US modulation system, 8-VSB, works for some it is not working
as a successful modulation for our DTV transition in the US.

The experiences recounted here put lie to that statement. Very few
people who try to receive ATSC acceptably fail.

The
receivers are too expensive

The cost the same amount as HD receivers in Europe and Australia.

and do not work plug and play,

Actually, they do.

require a
rooftop antenna and rotor in most cases,

So does NTSC and COFDM according to all credible reports. Many people
report here that they have complete success with indoor antenna.

have drop out problems due to
multipath

Oddly enough, this problem is only reported by you and appears to be a
very rare problem.

and the simple fact is that no one is buying them. 8-VSB has
failed.

You really are self convinced. It's a good thing you haven't been able
to convince anyone else, especially all of the people who post here
about the great success they have with receiving ATSC signals and the
great picture quality they get to enjoy.

Other countries have opted for HDTV or SDTV. That choice is separate
from the choice of modulation.

I wish you would actually remember that you said that.

I suggest that whether they have chosen
HD or SD they will be in all cases far more successful than the US in
their digital transition OTA because they picked a modulation that
offers less expensive receivers

Oddly enough, HD receivers in Europe and Australia cost the sams as they
cost in the US. Different modulation schemes have a trivial effect on
the cost of the receivers from all reports.

that work for all not just 65% of the
population

Even if true (which I doubt) it is the people in the fringe areas that
enjoy the advantages of ATSC. Even your poster boy for poor receptions,
Mark Schubin, has reported successful reception of ATSC from
Philadelphia in his Manhattan apartment.

and work in a wider number of circumstances, mobile and
portable.

It appears that you are virtually alone in thinking that mobile
reception of ATSC should be a requirement. Portable ATSC reception will
probably be as good or bad as portable NTSC.

8-VSB was poorly designed to JUST barely replace NTSC and it fails even
at that.

A claim you keep making, but reports here suggest otherwise.

The various versions of COFDM were designed to fix the problems
of reception that plagued NTSC and they have succeeded. COFDM was
designed for the future.

Great! We have HDTV now! You can keep waiting.

Matthew

--
http://www.mlmartin.com/bbq/

Thermodynamics For Dummies: You can't win.
You can't break even.
You can't get out of the game.

Bob Miller wrote:

HDTV is free and available in Australia. It will be in Japan in December.

While our US modulation system, 8-VSB, works for some it is not working
as a successful modulation for our DTV transition in the US.

The experiences recounted here put lie to that statement. Very few
people who try to receive ATSC acceptably fail.

The
receivers are too expensive

The cost the same amount as HD receivers in Europe and Australia.

and do not work plug and play,

Actually, they do.

require a
rooftop antenna and rotor in most cases,

So does NTSC and COFDM according to all credible reports. Many people
report here that they have complete success with indoor antenna.

have drop out problems due to
multipath

Oddly enough, this problem is only reported by you and appears to be a
very rare problem.

and the simple fact is that no one is buying them. 8-VSB has
failed.

You really are self convinced. It's a good thing you haven't been able
to convince anyone else, especially all of the people who post here
about the great success they have with receiving ATSC signals and the
great picture quality they get to enjoy.

Other countries have opted for HDTV or SDTV. That choice is separate
from the choice of modulation.

I wish you would actually remember that you said that.

I suggest that whether they have chosen
HD or SD they will be in all cases far more successful than the US in
their digital transition OTA because they picked a modulation that
offers less expensive receivers

Oddly enough, HD receivers in Europe and Australia cost the sams as they
cost in the US. Different modulation schemes have a trivial effect on
the cost of the receivers from all reports.

that work for all not just 65% of the
population

Even if true (which I doubt) it is the people in the fringe areas that
enjoy the advantages of ATSC. Even your poster boy for poor receptions,
Mark Schubin, has reported successful reception of ATSC from
Philadelphia in his Manhattan apartment.

and work in a wider number of circumstances, mobile and
portable.

It appears that you are virtually alone in thinking that mobile
reception of ATSC should be a requirement. Portable ATSC reception will
probably be as good or bad as portable NTSC.

8-VSB was poorly designed to JUST barely replace NTSC and it fails even
at that.

A claim you keep making, but reports here suggest otherwise.

The various versions of COFDM were designed to fix the problems
of reception that plagued NTSC and they have succeeded. COFDM was
designed for the future.

Great! We have HDTV now! You can keep waiting.

Matthew

--
http://www.mlmartin.com/bbq/

Thermodynamics For Dummies: You can't win.
You can't break even.
You can't get out of the game.

In article ,
(Steve Bryan) writes:
"Bob Miller" wrote in message link.net...
...
I DISAGREE with you about the percolating out of the information on HDTV.
Information about HDTV has percolated out. The information is that it is a
hassle and it is too expensive. Now the expense part is coming down so sales
are increasing for the HDTV sets but the hassle part is still there for OTA
reception.

... People will buy the HDTV sets and wait for cable or
satellite. OTA is going nowhere.

Well, this exercise was amusing for a while but I have to confess its
surrealistic aspect has grown too weird. Every day you repeat your
mantra that 8-VSB modulation renders OTA HDTV unworkable in the US and
every day I have four or five HD programs available throughout most
of prime time. A wealth of football and other sporting events again
available in HD for free and you keep up the drum beat that it is
better everywhere else in the world (UK, Germany, Japan, Australia,
and China). Of course none of them have free HDTV like we have already
but evidence like that has to be reinterpreted.

Note that Bob had several times claimed that 480p(i) was good
enough for the public. Also, he obviously has interest in pay
per view (and some kind of wierd mobile scheme.) Almost any
usage of bandwidth beyond some low quality SDTV channels will
eliminate MPEG HDTV as a viable option.

Bob is obviously NOT interested in HDTV, but is interested in
taking away FREE OTA HDTV and (mis) using the spectrum for his
own selfish reasons.

John

In article ,
(Steve Bryan) writes:
"Bob Miller" wrote in message link.net...
...
I DISAGREE with you about the percolating out of the information on HDTV.
Information about HDTV has percolated out. The information is that it is a
hassle and it is too expensive. Now the expense part is coming down so sales
are increasing for the HDTV sets but the hassle part is still there for OTA
reception.

... People will buy the HDTV sets and wait for cable or
satellite. OTA is going nowhere.

Well, this exercise was amusing for a while but I have to confess its
surrealistic aspect has grown too weird. Every day you repeat your
mantra that 8-VSB modulation renders OTA HDTV unworkable in the US and
every day I have four or five HD programs available throughout most
of prime time. A wealth of football and other sporting events again
available in HD for free and you keep up the drum beat that it is
better everywhere else in the world (UK, Germany, Japan, Australia,
and China). Of course none of them have free HDTV like we have already
but evidence like that has to be reinterpreted.

Note that Bob had several times claimed that 480p(i) was good
enough for the public. Also, he obviously has interest in pay
per view (and some kind of wierd mobile scheme.) Almost any
usage of bandwidth beyond some low quality SDTV channels will
eliminate MPEG HDTV as a viable option.

Bob is obviously NOT interested in HDTV, but is interested in
taking away FREE OTA HDTV and (mis) using the spectrum for his
own selfish reasons.

John

Matthew L. Martin ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
have drop out problems due to
multipath

Oddly enough, this problem is only reported by you and appears to be a
very rare problem.

I have a station where the analog is multipath hell with one primary ghost
about 35% away from the main image, and lots of secondary ghosts. The
digital station from the same tower comes in clean and clear.

--
Jeff Rife |
301-916-8131 | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/Dilbert/Understaffed.gif