Home cinema - BBC iMP Trial to start 1st September

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- UK digital tv (http://www.homecinemabanter.com/forumdisplay.php?f=5)

- - BBC iMP Trial to start 1st September (http://www.homecinemabanter.com/showthread.php?t=35431)

DAB sounds worse than FM wrote:

Does that mean that they will use copy-protection?

Yes, they are.

I wonder why, it's not like their most popular shows are not already on
p2p. There must be tens of thousands of people outside the UK already
watching Extras, available on popular bit torrent sites a few hours
after the BBC2 airing.

Hopefully they'll adopt AAC instead, which would allow support for
both Windows and Mac users

Not to mention iPod users...

Yes, but one drawback of AAC is that it's only the iPod that supports it
out of the MP3 players. Or at least I can't think of any other MP3
players that support AAC. Unfortunately, a lot of MP3 players do support
WMA.

But all those players combined probably don't even have as much market
(and mind-) share as the iPods.

wowfabgroovy wrote:

they will go with whatever format is the most popular/widely used,
relative quality won't even be a consideration. they will also want
some form of drm restrictions to stop them from working after a set
time (probably 7 days from broadcast).

so it will be wma/wmv.

No it won't.

apple
will have caught up by the time it's launched.

Somehow I can't see Apple ditching their DRM and Quicktime platform and
choose instead their main competitors' proprietary systems.

Giuseppe wrote:
DAB sounds worse than FM wrote:

Does that mean that they will use copy-protection?

Yes, they are.

I wonder why, it's not like their most popular shows are not already
on p2p. There must be tens of thousands of people outside the UK
already watching Extras, available on popular bit torrent sites a few
hours after the BBC2 airing.

Yeah, but that's not supposed to happen. And then there's the issue over
radio playing copyrighted music, so you just imagine what the record
industry would say if the shows had no protection.

Hopefully they'll adopt AAC instead, which would allow support for
both Windows and Mac users

Not to mention iPod users...

Yes, but one drawback of AAC is that it's only the iPod that
supports it out of the MP3 players. Or at least I can't think of any
other MP3 players that support AAC. Unfortunately, a lot of MP3
players do support WMA.

But all those players combined probably don't even have as much market
(and mind-) share as the iPods.

I once read that smaller MP3 players were the best selling, and iPods
are just far more famous.

--
Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info

Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices:
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http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm

Ivan wrote:
"DAB sounds worse than FM" wrote in message
...
From www.digitalradiotech.co.uk

The BBC's interactive media player (iMP) is starting a wider trial on
1st September.

Only a limited number of radio shows and TV programmes will be
available in the trial at first, although more shows might be added
closer to launch date, apparently.

The iMP uses peer-to-peer technology, which is the same technology
that the file-sharing networks use where people download parts of
each programme from multiple users. The reason why there will only
be a limited number of programmes available is probably due to there
only being 5,000 trialists, because the fewer programmes there are
available the more likely it will be that people will be able to
download from multiple users. It is planned that all TV and radio
programmes will be available when the iMP is fully launched next
year, and programmes will be available for 7 days after they've been
broadcast.

The radio shows are apparently going to use 128kbps WMA9, which means
that they should have better audio quality than is available on the
BBC's radio stations on DAB or digital TV. However, WMA9 might not be
used when the system is fully launched next year due to the desire
that Apple Macs be supported.

Hopefully they'll adopt AAC instead, which would allow support for
both Windows and Mac users and is the best-performing well-known
audio codec at 128kbps.

Slightly OT know Steve, but I tend to use DAB basically as a higher
quality alternative to AM Radio. However I was reading in this
month's New Scientist about a system called DRM

Who wrote the article?

which could be due to
take off during the next year or two, what's your own opinion on it,
you think that it will rival or maybe even supersede DAB?
http://www.drm.org/system/technicalaspect.php

DRM is a very good system, but it was designed to be used at frequencies
below 30 MHz, and such low frequency signals have strange propagation
characteristics. But DRM is now being extended to work at frequencies up
to 120 MHz, although some broadcasters like the BBC are employing
delaying tactics to make sure that the time it takes DRM to be extended
is as long as possible to allow DAB a free run without any competing
systems.

The fact of the matter is that DAB technology is now 15 years old,
whereas DRM's technology is all modern, so the broadcasters backing DAB
don't want to allow countries to adopt DRM ahead of DAB, so they're
delaying it.

Radioscape who produce DAB modules have developed a DAB+DRM module and
it's likely that we'll see radios with DRM in the UK soon. But it'll be
the current version of DRM, not the extended version, so the only
stations it'll be able to receive are those that transmit at frequencies
below 30 MHz. Also, the extension of DRM will bring wider channels
(100kHz), so the bit rates can be increased, whereas at the moment the
maximum channel width is only 20kHz, so the bit rates will be low and
the audio quality will be poor, but better than MW.

Basically, the BBC have decided that Europe should follow the UK and
adopt DAB. The other European public service broadcasters bizarrely look
to the BBC for a lead, and the BBC is backing DAB, so most of the other
European public service broadcaster lemmings are following them. The
fact that DAB is about as outdated a digital technology as it is
possible to imagine and that modern systems like DVB-H and DRM wipe the
floor with DAB seems to be irrelevant to them. The European Broadcasting
Union (EBU) is very powerful as well, and its technical department has
got a load of ex-BBC men in it, and it is headed by the person that was
in charge of BBC R&D at the time that the BBC rolled out their DAB
transmitter network.

It's all about egos at the end of the day; the people that designed DAB
don't want to admit that they designed a ****e system and they're happy
to provide low audio quality to all of their listeners rather than face
reality.

Anyway, back to DRM: they'll probably manage to delay the extension of
it for about 5 years by which time most people in the UK will probably
be listening to low audio quality via DAB.

Just to give you an indication of how outdated and inefficient DAB is
and how efficient DRM is, the amount of spectrum required for a
reasonable audio quality station (160kbps) on DAB is 250kHz, whereas on
DRM is it only 25kHz (after DRM has been extended). So, if you've got 1
MHz of spectrum then you can fit 4 reasonable quality stations on DAB or
40 reasonable quality stations on DRM. DRM is also far cheaper for
broadcasters to transmit. So, it's no wonder that they want to delay DRM
as long as possible, because it seriously puts DAB in its place, i.e. in
the technology museum.

--
Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info

Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices:
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm

John Patrick wrote:
DAB and DRM will be complementary systems.

Actually, if a country chooses to use DRM after it's been extended then
they wouldn't need to use the 15-year-old DAB system at all.

Set designers are already
looking at sets combining the two systems. So it won't be a question
of one over the other the DRM system using what is now called SW, LW,
& MW will be capable of longer distance reception.

DRM is being extended to work at frequencies up to 120 MHz, and once it
does it'll be able to provide high audio quality.

--
Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info

Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices:
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm

"DAB sounds worse than FM" wrote in message
...

Who wrote the article?

DRM is a very good system, but it was designed to be used at frequencies
below 30 MHz, and such low frequency signals have strange propagation
characteristics. But DRM is now being extended to work at frequencies up
to 120 MHz, although some broadcasters like the BBC are employing
delaying tactics to make sure that the time it takes DRM to be extended
is as long as possible to allow DAB a free run without any competing
systems.

The fact of the matter is that DAB technology is now 15 years old,
whereas DRM's technology is all modern, so the broadcasters backing DAB
don't want to allow countries to adopt DRM ahead of DAB, so they're
delaying it.

Radioscape who produce DAB modules have developed a DAB+DRM module and
it's likely that we'll see radios with DRM in the UK soon. But it'll be
the current version of DRM, not the extended version, so the only
stations it'll be able to receive are those that transmit at frequencies
below 30 MHz. Also, the extension of DRM will bring wider channels
(100kHz), so the bit rates can be increased, whereas at the moment the
maximum channel width is only 20kHz, so the bit rates will be low and
the audio quality will be poor, but better than MW.

Basically, the BBC have decided that Europe should follow the UK and
adopt DAB. The other European public service broadcasters bizarrely look
to the BBC for a lead, and the BBC is backing DAB, so most of the other
European public service broadcaster lemmings are following them. The
fact that DAB is about as outdated a digital technology as it is
possible to imagine and that modern systems like DVB-H and DRM wipe the
floor with DAB seems to be irrelevant to them. The European Broadcasting
Union (EBU) is very powerful as well, and its technical department has
got a load of ex-BBC men in it, and it is headed by the person that was
in charge of BBC R&D at the time that the BBC rolled out their DAB
transmitter network.

It's all about egos at the end of the day; the people that designed DAB
don't want to admit that they designed a ****e system and they're happy
to provide low audio quality to all of their listeners rather than face
reality.

Anyway, back to DRM: they'll probably manage to delay the extension of
it for about 5 years by which time most people in the UK will probably
be listening to low audio quality via DAB.

Just to give you an indication of how outdated and inefficient DAB is
and how efficient DRM is, the amount of spectrum required for a
reasonable audio quality station (160kbps) on DAB is 250kHz, whereas on
DRM is it only 25kHz (after DRM has been extended). So, if you've got 1
MHz of spectrum then you can fit 4 reasonable quality stations on DAB or
40 reasonable quality stations on DRM. DRM is also far cheaper for
broadcasters to transmit. So, it's no wonder that they want to delay DRM
as long as possible, because it seriously puts DAB in its place, i.e. in
the technology museum.

IIRC the author was Barry Fox :0)

Thanks for the detailed explanation Steve, I'm now a little more up to speed
about what's going on, as I have to admit that my only awareness of DRM was
that I vaguely knew that there was some kind of digital rejuvenation on the
cards for the AM radio spectrum.

It seems a shame that DRM won't be taking off in the UK sooner rather than
later, especially if the signal is more robust than DAB and offers better
quality, plus the choice of many more stations.

--
Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info

Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices:
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm

DAB sounds worse than FM wrote:

I wonder why, it's not like their most popular shows are not already
on p2p. There must be tens of thousands of people outside the UK
already watching Extras, available on popular bit torrent sites a few
hours after the BBC2 airing.

Yeah, but that's not supposed to happen.

But it does, and will, happen. :-)
I heard that the iMP content will also be made available for a fee to
those outside the UK, is it confirmed or just a rumour?

And then there's the issue over
radio playing copyrighted music, so you just imagine what the record
industry would say if the shows had no protection.

Yeah, I guess that the BBC will just have to implement it even if they
would prefer not to.

But all those players combined probably don't even have as much market
(and mind-) share as the iPods.

I once read that smaller MP3 players were the best selling, and iPods
are just far more famous.

In any case, Apple has also been making flash players for a while, and
apparently they've been fairly successful.

wowfabgroovy wrote:

Somehow I can't see Apple ditching their DRM and Quicktime platform and
choose instead their main competitors' proprietary systems.

if they're already trialing with wma they're not going to switch to
something else just for a few freaks with non-standard computers.

Such idiotic gibberish doesn't even deserve a serious reply. Much like
everything else you write, actually...

Giuseppe wrote:
DAB sounds worse than FM wrote:

I wonder why, it's not like their most popular shows are not already
on p2p. There must be tens of thousands of people outside the UK
already watching Extras, available on popular bit torrent sites a
few hours after the BBC2 airing.

Yeah, but that's not supposed to happen.

But it does, and will, happen. :-)

Yes, but it's still not meant to happen.

I heard that the iMP content will also be made available for a fee to
those outside the UK, is it confirmed or just a rumour?

It was something the Director of New Media, Ashley Highfield, said in a
speech this summer.

And then there's the issue over
radio playing copyrighted music, so you just imagine what the record
industry would say if the shows had no protection.

Yeah, I guess that the BBC will just have to implement it even if they
would prefer not to.

Yep, it's all to keep the copyright holders happy.

But all those players combined probably don't even have as much
market (and mind-) share as the iPods.

I once read that smaller MP3 players were the best selling, and iPods
are just far more famous.

In any case, Apple has also been making flash players for a while, and
apparently they've been fairly successful.

It was after the iPod Shuffle came out that I read that more people buy
small capacity than large capacity MP3 players. When you think about it
it's not surprising because of the massive price difference.

--
Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info

Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices:
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm