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Problems with BBC R3 sound via DTTV
If anyone here gets a chance, have a listen to BBC R3 via your DTTV
receiver during the prom rebroadcast this afternoon. May be too late by the time you read this, but I have been listeing and am finding the sound quite awful. [1]Yet other BBC radio stations on the same mux seem fine, and the UHF carrier level here seems OK... Who does one contact at the BBC these days for reports/complaints about technical matters like this? Slainte, Jim [1] Effect something like dire levels of flutter multipath distortion on *AM*. Makes massed strings sound more like a band of balalaikas! -- Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html |
Jim Lesurf wrote:
If anyone here gets a chance, have a listen to BBC R3 via your DTTV receiver during the prom rebroadcast this afternoon. May be too late by the time you read this, but I have been listeing and am finding the sound quite awful. [1]Yet other BBC radio stations on the same mux seem fine, and the UHF carrier level here seems OK... Who does one contact at the BBC these days for reports/complaints about technical matters like this? See these threads... http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt...59ffea52?tvc=1 http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt...cb0378c8?tvc=1 I haven't tried R3 recently. I've been recording some Proms from BBC Four but haven't had chance to listen yet! As you'll see from the first thread, I tried emailing BBC reception advice. They were aware of the problem, but could give no indication of when it might be fixed. It didn't sound like a priority, unfortunately. Cheers, David. |
All sound on DTT is mp3 format, which employs psycho-acoustic "tricks"
for bit rate reduction, yes it can sound awful. Might be better to use fm sound and DTT picture, although then they're not syncronised. Sometimes, technicians put limiters, noise gates, etc, into sound channel, which can muck things up even further. |
Jim Lesurf wrote:
If anyone here gets a chance, have a listen to BBC R3 via your DTTV receiver during the prom rebroadcast this afternoon. May be too late by the time you read this, but I have been listeing and am finding the sound quite awful. [1]Yet other BBC radio stations on the same mux seem fine, and the UHF carrier level here seems OK... Who does one contact at the BBC these days for reports/complaints about technical matters like this? . Be prepared for a very, very long wait before they bother to sort it out. -- Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices: http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm |
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
... If anyone here gets a chance, have a listen to BBC R3 via your DTTV receiver during the prom rebroadcast this afternoon. May be too late by the time you read this, but I have been listeing and am finding the sound quite awful. [1]Yet other BBC radio stations on the same mux seem fine, and the UHF carrier level here seems OK... Who does one contact at the BBC these days for reports/complaints about technical matters like this? Slainte, Jim [1] Effect something like dire levels of flutter multipath distortion on *AM*. Makes massed strings sound more like a band of balalaikas! -- Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html I heard it too - not distortion just a straightforward fault. |
On 2005-07-27, Jim Lesurf wrote:
I had been intending to record the entire 'Sea Symphony' onto DVD-R as that is connected to the DTTV RX. I'm collecting comparison recordings for doing an analysis at a later date. With some of the previous proms I felt I'd been hearing artefacts/problems on the DTTV R3 rebroadcasts that I wasn't hearing on the BBCTV 'live' sic broadcasts of the same proms, so have been 'collecting data' for closer examination in due course. If you like I can send you a 48 ksample/s .wav on CD or DVD of today's Prom re-broadcast, captured from R3 DAB, which may well be nominally the same bitstream as R3 DTTV. I haven't listened to it all but the Mendelssohn sounds fine as do a few random samples from the Bruch and the V-W. My suspicion is that something is/was going wrong somewhere along the line. Probably a R3 DTTV tx chain fault since R3 DAB sounds fine. -- John Phillips |
spiney wrote:
All sound on DTT is mp3 format, No it's not, it's mp2 -- Mark Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply. |
In article , John Phillips
wrote: On 2005-07-27, Jim Lesurf wrote: I had been intending to record the entire 'Sea Symphony' onto DVD-R as that is connected to the DTTV RX. I'm collecting comparison recordings for doing an analysis at a later date. With some of the previous proms I felt I'd been hearing artefacts/problems on the DTTV R3 rebroadcasts that I wasn't hearing on the BBCTV 'live' sic broadcasts of the same proms, so have been 'collecting data' for closer examination in due course. If you like I can send you a 48 ksample/s .wav on CD or DVD of today's Prom re-broadcast, captured from R3 DAB, which may well be nominally the same bitstream as R3 DTTV. Yes please! :-) ...and many thanks for the battery. :-) Although isn't DAB at 32 ksamples/sec?... It will definately be useful to have a copy of the DAB version as I can then compare that with the DTTV BBCTV4 version, as well as with the 'excerpts' I took from the faulty DTTV R3 version. Either CD or DVD would be excellent. I haven't listened to it all but the Mendelssohn sounds fine as do a few random samples from the Bruch and the V-W. If the later part of the Bruch and the start of the VW sound fine, then it seems that it doesn't have the fault that made the DTTV R3 version unbearable. Slainte, Jim -- Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html |
DAB sounds worse than FM wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote: If anyone here gets a chance, have a listen to BBC R3 via your DTTV receiver during the prom rebroadcast this afternoon. May be too late by the time you read this, but I have been listeing and am finding the sound quite awful. [1]Yet other BBC radio stations on the same mux seem fine, and the UHF carrier level here seems OK... Who does one contact at the BBC these days for reports/complaints about technical matters like this? . Be prepared for a very, very long wait before they bother to sort it out. There are only a handful of engineers in RA, but most of them read the newsgroups as do the engineers looking after DTT & DSAT. Mind they are now Siemens, so there's probably a bill gone into the BBC they want paying first ;-) |
In article , Dickie mint
wrote: DAB sounds worse than FM wrote: Jim Lesurf wrote: Who does one contact at the BBC these days for reports/complaints about technical matters like this? . Be prepared for a very, very long wait before they bother to sort it out. There are only a handful of engineers in RA, but most of them read the newsgroups as do the engineers looking after DTT & DSAT. If any are reading this (or anyone else who can help)... One of the things I wish to discover is the details of the 'chain' which sends the audio data from a prom to FM R3, DTTV R3, and DTTV BBC4 (also DAB), both 'live' and when rebroadcast a few days later. I'm trying to determine where any 'differences' might arise for defined reasons like use of convertors, different data rates, etc. Is there a detailed description of this anywhere, or someone who can say? IIUC DTTV R3 is on a different mux to BBCTV4, and I am also wondering if the audio data for R3 is altered at some point outwith the direct control of the BBC... Slainte, Jim -- Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html |
On 2005-07-28, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , John Phillips wrote: On 2005-07-27, Jim Lesurf wrote: I had been intending to record the entire 'Sea Symphony' onto DVD-R as that is connected to the DTTV RX. I'm collecting comparison recordings for doing an analysis at a later date. With some of the previous proms I felt I'd been hearing artefacts/problems on the DTTV R3 rebroadcasts that I wasn't hearing on the BBCTV 'live' sic broadcasts of the same proms, so have been 'collecting data' for closer examination in due course. If you like I can send you a 48 ksample/s .wav on CD or DVD of today's Prom re-broadcast, captured from R3 DAB, which may well be nominally the same bitstream as R3 DTTV. Yes please! :-) ...and many thanks for the battery. :-) Will do. Although isn't DAB at 32 ksamples/sec?... Not as far as I am aware. Extract from the DAB standard: "The DAB system uses MPEG Audio Layer II, suitably formatted for DAB transmission. For 48 kHz sampling frequency it uses the ISO/IEC 11172-3 standard [3] and for 24 kHz sampling frequency it uses the ISO/IEC 13818-3 standard [14]." Certainly, the optical S/PDIF output from my DAB tuner comes out at 48 kHz according to the display on the DAC. I think DAB audio coding is the same as audio on DVB-T, and I think R3 DAB and R3 DVB-T both encode to 192 kbit/s these days. That's why I think the R3 DAB and R3 DVB-T digital audio should be exactly the same (if the TX chain is working well). -- John Phillips |
Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Dickie mint wrote: DAB sounds worse than FM wrote: Jim Lesurf wrote: Who does one contact at the BBC these days for reports/complaints about technical matters like this? . Be prepared for a very, very long wait before they bother to sort it out. There are only a handful of engineers in RA, but most of them read the newsgroups as do the engineers looking after DTT & DSAT. If any are reading this (or anyone else who can help)... One of the things I wish to discover is the details of the 'chain' which sends the audio data from a prom to FM R3, DTTV R3, and DTTV BBC4 (also DAB), both 'live' and when rebroadcast a few days later. I'm trying to determine where any 'differences' might arise for defined reasons like use of convertors, different data rates, etc. Is there a detailed description of this anywhere, or someone who can say? You won't find a description of this on the net, but Mark Carver (who posts on here) heard that Radios 1-4 on DTT "take a rather circuitous route", which is obviously not best practice, and probably involves one or more transcodes en route thus degrading the audio quality from what it could be. IIUC DTTV R3 is on a different mux to BBCTV4, Correct. and I am also wondering if the audio data for R3 is altered at some point outwith the direct control of the BBC... R3 is on the SDN commercial multiplex, and there's a thread about how this is distributed he http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....b51f5b111c720b But I think the problem is at the BBC's end of the chain, and they don't seem to care less about R1-4 on DTT. -- Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices: http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm |
John Phillips wrote:
On 2005-07-28, Jim Lesurf wrote: In article , John Phillips wrote: On 2005-07-27, Jim Lesurf wrote: I had been intending to record the entire 'Sea Symphony' onto DVD-R as that is connected to the DTTV RX. I'm collecting comparison recordings for doing an analysis at a later date. With some of the previous proms I felt I'd been hearing artefacts/problems on the DTTV R3 rebroadcasts that I wasn't hearing on the BBCTV 'live' sic broadcasts of the same proms, so have been 'collecting data' for closer examination in due course. If you like I can send you a 48 ksample/s .wav on CD or DVD of today's Prom re-broadcast, captured from R3 DAB, which may well be nominally the same bitstream as R3 DTTV. Yes please! :-) ...and many thanks for the battery. :-) Will do. Although isn't DAB at 32 ksamples/sec?... Not as far as I am aware. Extract from the DAB standard: "The DAB system uses MPEG Audio Layer II, suitably formatted for DAB transmission. For 48 kHz sampling frequency it uses the ISO/IEC 11172-3 standard [3] and for 24 kHz sampling frequency it uses the ISO/IEC 13818-3 standard [14]." Yes, R3 is 48kHz on DAB. Certainly, the optical S/PDIF output from my DAB tuner comes out at 48 kHz according to the display on the DAC. I think DAB audio coding is the same as audio on DVB-T, Yes, both MPEG-1 Layer 2 (MP2). and I think R3 DAB and R3 DVB-T both encode to 192 kbit/s these days. Correct, apart from when Radio 5 Sports Extra is on during the day (before 5 p.m.), in which case R3 is 160kbps on DAB but 192kbps on DTT. -- Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices: http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm |
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message ... If anyone here gets a chance, have a listen to BBC R3 via your DTTV receiver during the prom rebroadcast this afternoon. May be too late by the time you read this, but I have been listeing and am finding the sound quite awful. [1]Yet other BBC radio stations on the same mux seem fine, and the UHF carrier level here seems OK... The sound on DTT has always been awful and the Proms on the digital version R3 is like listening through mud. In fact everything on the digital version of R3 is like listening through mud so I listen on FM. Further more the sound on BBC1 and is now actual WORSE than that of BBC3 and BBC4 even though it uses a fixed bit rate. Who does one contact at the BBC these days for reports/complaints about technical matters like this? Slainte, Jim [1] Effect something like dire levels of flutter multipath distortion on *AM*. Makes massed strings sound more like a band of balalaikas! -- Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html |
"spiney" wrote in message oups.com... All sound on DTT is mp3 format, which employs psycho-acoustic "tricks" for bit rate reduction, yes it can sound awful. Its in mp2 MUSICAM formant which is ****. They can't even be bothered to use a decent codec like AT&T so they use the basic Fraunhoffer codec instead which is useless even at very high bit rates. Might be better to use fm sound and DTT picture, although then they're not syncronised. They are several minutes out of sync. Sometimes, technicians put limiters, noise gates, etc, into sound channel, which can muck things up even further. |
In article ,
Agamemnon writes "Jim Lesurf" wrote in message ... If anyone here gets a chance, have a listen to BBC R3 via your DTTV receiver during the prom rebroadcast this afternoon. May be too late by the time you read this, but I have been listeing and am finding the sound quite awful. [1]Yet other BBC radio stations on the same mux seem fine, and the UHF carrier level here seems OK... The sound on DTT has always been awful and the Proms on the digital version R3 is like listening through mud. In fact everything on the digital version of R3 is like listening through mud so I listen on FM. Further more the sound on BBC1 and is now actual WORSE than that of BBC3 and BBC4 even though it uses a fixed bit rate. Perhaps we're being "softened up" for things to come;(...... -- Tony Sayer |
Mark Carver is wrong, both DTT and DAB use identical MP3 sound coding
(MP3 is the audio subset standard of MPEG2!). |
"spiney" wrote in message oups.com... Mark Carver is wrong, both DTT and DAB use identical MP3 sound coding (MP3 is the audio subset standard of MPEG2!). No, you're wrong. DTT and DAB use MPEG1 layer 2 (aka MP2), which is a broadcast standard. MP3 is correctly known as MPEG1 layer 3. |
spiney wrote:
Mark Carver is wrong, both DTT and DAB use identical MP3 sound coding (MP3 is the audio subset standard of MPEG2!). You are the one that's wrong! You've shown what an ignorant fool you are on more than one occasion, |
DB wrote: "spiney" wrote in message oups.com... Mark Carver is wrong, both DTT and DAB use identical MP3 sound coding (MP3 is the audio subset standard of MPEG2!). No, you're wrong. DTT and DAB use MPEG1 layer 2 (aka MP2), which is a broadcast standard. MP3 is correctly known as MPEG1 layer 3. or MPEG2 layer3, or I suppose MPEG4 layer3... |
Alex Bird wrote:
DB wrote: "spiney" wrote in message oups.com... Mark Carver is wrong, both DTT and DAB use identical MP3 sound coding (MP3 is the audio subset standard of MPEG2!). No, you're wrong. DTT and DAB use MPEG1 layer 2 (aka MP2), which is a broadcast standard. MP3 is correctly known as MPEG1 layer 3. or MPEG2 layer3, or I suppose MPEG4 layer3... MPEG-1 defined the most used sampling frequencies such as 44.1, 48, 32 kHz. MPEG-2 added lower sampling frequencies. MPEG-4 Layer 3 doesn't exist. MPEG-4 audio consists of AAC and HE AAC and a few ultra-low bit rate speech codecs and such like. This site has a lot of good info on audio codecs: http://www.audiocoding.com/modules/wiki/ -- Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices: http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm |
DAB sounds worse than FM wrote:
MPEG-4 Layer 3 doesn't exist. MPEG-4 audio consists of AAC and HE AAC and a few ultra-low bit rate speech codecs and such like. Maybe in a strict MPEG4 program stream, but almost all MPEG4 use - perhaps being overtaken by mobile phones - is in avi files which have layer 3 audio. I tend to call that MPEG4Layer3.. Alex |
Alex Bird wrote:
DAB sounds worse than FM wrote: MPEG-4 Layer 3 doesn't exist. MPEG-4 audio consists of AAC and HE AAC and a few ultra-low bit rate speech codecs and such like. Maybe in a strict MPEG4 program stream, but almost all MPEG4 use - perhaps being overtaken by mobile phones - is in avi files which have layer 3 audio. They don't have to use MP3. I tend to call that MPEG4Layer3.. Look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP3 The name is derived from "MPEG-1 Audio Layer 3," more formally known as "MPEG-1 Part 3 Layer 3" or "ISO/IEC 11172-3 Layer 3". Reportedly, the ".mp3" filename extension is also sometimes used on audio files encoded using the newer "MPEG-2 Audio Layer 3" standard (a.k.a. "MPEG-2 Part 3 Layer 3" or "ISO/IEC 13818-3 Layer 3"). MPEG-4 Layer 3 is just mixing up different standards and it's incorect. A lot of people refer to MP3 as MPEG-3, but here's what MPEG-3 is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-3 You might think it's pedantic, but there is no such thing as MPEG-4 Layer 3. MPEG-4 uses 'Parts': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-4 e.g. MPEG-4 Part 10 is the new H.264 video codec. Here's the audio part of MPEG-4: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-4_Part_3 -- Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices: http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm |
depends what u like. mpeg has variable bitrate coding, and other
"artifacts", whereas fm broadcasting uses heavy compression instead (Optimod, last I heard). There's no such thing as "neutral sound quality". |
depends what u like. mpeg has variable bitrate coding, and other
"artifacts", whereas fm broadcasting uses heavy compression instead (Optimod, last I heard). There's no such thing as "neutral sound quality". |
apology, a typo by me!
mpeg2 audio is used identically in DAB and DTT , at level 2. MPEG 3 usually means "mpeg level 3 audio", ie the surround format. mp3 is the consumer (ipod) sound format. |
In article .com,
spiney writes Mark Carver is wrong, both DTT and DAB use identical MP3 sound coding (MP3 is the audio subset standard of MPEG2!). Poor old Mark, after all what does he know after working more years than I can remember in professional broadcast engineering;?....... -- Tony Sayer |
In article . com,
spiney writes depends what u like. mpeg has variable bitrate coding, and other "artifacts", whereas fm broadcasting uses heavy compression instead (Optimod, last I heard). There's no such thing as "neutral sound quality". FM can and does use "Optimods" or more correctly multiband compression but how that unit is set up and applied is another matter. FM can sound as \\good\\ as CD if you want it too. I've been able to demonstrate this with a Harris digital exciter and Audiolab tuner in a direct off air comparison and only One person out of a group of Six noticed any differences and these were on very long sustained low level piano pieces. Very few people get to hear what FM can be capable of.... -- Tony Sayer |
spiney wrote:
apology, a typo by me! mpeg2 audio is used identically in DAB and DTT , at level 2. Layer 2, not level 2. MPEG 3 usually means "mpeg level 3 audio", ie the surround format. MPEG-3 doesn't exist. They did mean to move from MPEG-2 to MPEG-3 for HDTV but then decided that MPEG-2 had all the necessary tools, so they dropped the idea of MPEG-3. So they went straight from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4. MPEG Level [sic] 3 audio does not exist either, in surround sound or 2-channel. You're just getting everything wrong. mp3 is the consumer (ipod) sound format. I suggest that when you're in a hole, stop digging. You'll be in Australia soon the way you're going. -- Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices: http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm |
"tony sayer" wrote in message ... In article . com, spiney writes depends what u like. mpeg has variable bitrate coding, and other "artifacts", whereas fm broadcasting uses heavy compression instead (Optimod, last I heard). There's no such thing as "neutral sound quality". FM can and does use "Optimods" or more correctly multiband compression but how that unit is set up and applied is another matter. FM can sound as \\good\\ as CD if you want it too. I've been able to demonstrate this with a Harris digital exciter and Audiolab tuner in a direct off air comparison and only One person out of a group of Six noticed any differences and these were on very long sustained low level piano pieces. And a piano is the easiest instrument to duplicate on an FM synthesiser so its not that difficult to fool people even with recordings made in the 50's. Why don't you try a violin, a harpsichord or human speech instead. Very few people get to hear what FM can be capable of.... -- Tony Sayer |
In article ,
Agamemnon writes "tony sayer" wrote in message ... In article . com, spiney writes depends what u like. mpeg has variable bitrate coding, and other "artifacts", whereas fm broadcasting uses heavy compression instead (Optimod, last I heard). There's no such thing as "neutral sound quality". FM can and does use "Optimods" or more correctly multiband compression but how that unit is set up and applied is another matter. FM can sound as \\good\\ as CD if you want it too. I've been able to demonstrate this with a Harris digital exciter and Audiolab tuner in a direct off air comparison and only One person out of a group of Six noticed any differences and these were on very long sustained low level piano pieces. And a piano is the easiest instrument to duplicate on an FM synthesiser so its not that difficult to fool people even with recordings made in the 50's. Why don't you try a violin, a harpsichord or human speech instead. We did!, in fact we tried most everything in Two CD collections:) And as I've said only one of the Six thought he noticed any difference the others didn't !. He was a pianist though..... -- Tony Sayer |
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