Videophiles unite to raise the bar
 

I'm a short-term lurker here, but a fairly close follower of hdtv technology;
I'm just waiting for the market to settle a bit and then I'll take the plunge
big time- probably 2-3 years (I'm thinking FP). Anyway, from what I'm reading,
not only is the availabilty of hdtv programming currently frustrating, but also
it seems there are some real concerns over quality and convenience in whatever
delivery systems are developing. It seems likely that what we end up with may
be very compromised due to bottom-line thinking and mass marketing to the
generally unknowledgeable public. What we need is input from the videophile
segment- those whose main goal is the best possible reception and ease of use.

It would seem to me that there is a good opportunity for the right kind of
company to come along and make quality and ease of access its priority. I can
imagine a dish company that uses bandwidth for the best quality, not quantity;
that offers access to every hdtv source available (all the major networks
represented by a "superstaion" local, plus all hdtv channels); that uses
technolgy aimed at giving consumers what they want (e.g. a stb w/ firewire that
enables time-shifting, and even has a hdr w/ 100gb that will operate tivo style
(subscription included w/ dish service) and records hdtv. Also, an easy to use
POD for hdtv movies. I know this may seem like a pipe dream, but my point is a
dish company run with videophile priorities. Don't you think they'd make money
in the end just as well as the bottom-line oriented companies? Maybe even be
more successful. If I had the dough, I'd put it into a venture like this. Any
of you well-healed (or well-connected) hdtv-heads think it sounds ike a good
idea? Let's get some say in how all this is gonna play out before its too
late...

"GrayhawkJW" wrote in message
...
: I'm a short-term lurker here, but a fairly close follower of hdtv technology;
: I'm just waiting for the market to settle a bit and then I'll take the plunge
: big time- probably 2-3 years (I'm thinking FP). Anyway, from what I'm reading,
: not only is the availabilty of hdtv programming currently frustrating, but also
: it seems there are some real concerns over quality and convenience in whatever
: delivery systems are developing. It seems likely that what we end up with may
: be very compromised due to bottom-line thinking and mass marketing to the
: generally unknowledgeable public. What we need is input from the videophile
: segment- those whose main goal is the best possible reception and ease of use.

=====================
Waiting is foolish.
HD is here now and it is here to stay.
====================
:
: It would seem to me that there is a good opportunity for the right kind of
: company to come along and make quality and ease of access its priority. I can
: imagine a dish company that uses bandwidth for the best quality, not quantity;
: that offers access to every hdtv source available (all the major networks
: represented by a "superstaion" local, plus all hdtv channels); that uses
: technolgy aimed at giving consumers what they want (e.g. a stb w/ firewire that
: enables time-shifting, and even has a hdr w/ 100gb that will operate tivo style
: (subscription included w/ dish service) and records hdtv. Also, an easy to use
: POD for hdtv movies. I know this may seem like a pipe dream, but my point is a
: dish company run with videophile priorities. Don't you think they'd make money
: in the end just as well as the bottom-line oriented companies? Maybe even be
: more successful. If I had the dough, I'd put it into a venture like this. Any
: of you well-healed (or well-connected) hdtv-heads think it sounds ike a good
: idea? Let's get some say in how all this is gonna play out before its too
: late...

"Akakiy Akakiyevich" wrote in message
. net...
The industry is definitely dragging their feet. There will come a time
when
a critical mass is achieved and things will take off. The companies that
invest now will be in the best position to be the market leaders. I wish
the
gov would open up the cable industry to competition!!!!!

Once you see HD, you want everything to be HD. The trouble is there aren't
enough customers calling up the cable companies to complain. I have
Cablevision with the digital channel option. I had to ask to get the HD
STB
and pay $25.

They didn't have the box with a DVI connector even though SA
does make it.

It sure would have been nice if the SA box supplied by Cablevision came with
a DVI connector. I had to use a switch box to share one of my component
video inputs. I also understand that the picture quality would also be
better.


There are only two HD channels and they only play HD
programming for about 5% of the time. I'm really not into Mets home games.

From what I have seen it looks like only 1% of the time.


If you want to pay more, there are two movie channels.

The HD quality for HBOHD and SHOHD are astonding. It is better than I ever
expected.

I wish Cablevision at
least had Discovery HD...but then they'd probably make me pay extra for
that.

The cable companies seem to only want to charge more and provide less. It
would be nice if they would give me billing credit for the channels I
don't
watch.

Vidguy7 ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
Well, in terms of quantity, I would disagree. We currently have CBS with most
of their primetime in HD, ABC with much of their primetime in HD, NBC with some
primetime in HD, HBO HD which is almost all HD, Showtime HD which is a
considerable amount of HD, Discovery HD which is all HD, HDNet which is all HD,
UPN which has some HD, ESPN HD which has some sports in HD and will be almost
all HD next year etc. So I think at this stage nobody is really bitching about
the quanitity. There are now many evening where I have to decide WHICH HD show
to watch.

I think that most of the complaints about lack of quantity are from people
in small-market DMAs. The big cities (except for NY) all have a fairly
solid set of the OTA stations.

There's also the issue where people can't get the OTA and don't have a
decent cable company. Also, I've heard enough stories about people not
being able to get DirecTV at all (apartment facing the wrong way, too
many trees, etc.) that cable really is the only possibility for many people.

--
Jeff Rife | "If the world were destroyed and you were the
301-916-8131 | last man within a thousand mile radius, I would
| swim across the ocean on a rumor that Screech
| from 'Saved by the Bell' was spotted in Japan."
| -- Ellen

Waiting is foolish.
HD is here now and it is here to stay.

I don't think its foolish at all for me- what is foolish is people thinking
they know whats best for everyone. I am waiting for the technology to mature a
bit so that the hardware prices come down, standards are developed and the
kinks get worked out more. In addition, there is not a lot of programming
available now "in my area." Maybe you don't mind the extra cost and
frustrations involved with early adoption, but that doesn't mean its foolish
for some of us to want to wait it out...

Well, in terms of quantity, I would disagree. We currently have CBS with most
of their primetime in HD, ABC with much of their primetime in HD, NBC with
some
primetime in HD, HBO HD which is almost all HD, Showtime HD which is a
considerable amount of HD, Discovery HD which is all HD, HDNet which is all
HD,
UPN which has some HD, ESPN HD which has some sports in HD and will be almost
all HD next year etc. So I think at this stage nobody is really bitching
about
the quanitity. There are now many evening where I have to decide WHICH HD
show
to watch.


This may be true for some people, but not for all. Many of us don't live near
a big city. Many of us don't have cable that offers any hi-def. And the
amount of HD that is available on satellite is not only small (though it does
appear to be growing) but also pretty expensive and you have to get a lot of
things you may not want just to get the HDTV channels.

As for quality, well that's a variable as has been picture quality on DVDs
for
years. I don't think we'll ever get away from the variable picture quality
whether it's DVDs, HD DVDs, D-Theater, HD OTA broadcasts or Satellite HD.
There
are so many links in the chain where the weakest link will ultimately affect
the final quality.

This may be true to an extent, but the less sources trying to squeeze too much
into too little bandwidth the better. If the quality of HD varied as little as
the quality of DVD's (which from my experience are very high quality in the
great majority of cases), I'd be happy. My concern is that anything the is not
sourced OTA will be subject to so much compression that the quality will suffer
needlessly. And of course OTA signals can vary depending on your location.

As to a new service, I'm not sure you appreciate the ASTRONOMICAL costs of
launching a brand new service.

Yes, though probably not fully. Its certainly out of my league, though I'd be
willing to invest in the right venture.

There have been satellite services that have
tried and failed with only DirecTV and Dish remaining.

Why did they fail?

Cablevision will be
trying their own satellite service that is primarily being pushed as an
"upper
tier" service with considerable HD. Many in the industry already think this
service is doomed.

I wasn't aware of this. Why is it doomed?

So it's far from simply deciding it would be nice to have a
high end HD service and have it implemented with no real problems.

Of course there will always be problems with any venture- but I would think
these problems would be surmountable. Its the basic philosophy of a commitment
to quality that would lead to a better end product that would make money
because of its superiority, not because it gives in to bottom-line thinking.
But maybe I'm being naiive.

I think the
only answer to the bandwidth issue will be the cable services or, in a few
years when new compression technolgies are developed, the remaining satellite
services.

My experiences with cable, who offer the worst picture, doesn't leave me with
much hope for them, even though they have the greatest potential to offer the
most comprehensive ofering of HDTV, it would seem. I hope that new compression
technologies do fix the problems, but I worry that compression will always be a
compromise.

I think that most of the complaints about lack of quantity are from people
in small-market DMAs. The big cities (except for NY) all have a fairly
solid set of the OTA stations.

Exactly- there are many of us who can't get any OTA stations.

There's also the issue where people can't get the OTA and don't have a
decent cable company.

A "decent cable company?" Is there such a thing? Again, forgoing large
markets, it seems to me that most cable companies have been given a monopoly in
many areas and therefore provide less than good service- both in picture
quality and in customer service.

Once you see HD, you want everything to be HD. The trouble is there aren't
enough customers calling up the cable companies to complain. I have
Cablevision with the digital channel option. I had to ask to get the HD
STB
and pay $25.

They didn't have the box with a DVI connector even though SA
does make it.

It sure would have been nice if the SA box supplied by Cablevision came with
a DVI connector. I had to use a switch box to share one of my component
video inputs. I also understand that the picture quality would also be
better.

These types of things are the frustrations to which I've been referring. You
have to invest in an HDTV- even if you get an integrated receiver, there is a
good chance you can't use it- at least not for everything. Then you need an
antenna for OTA- and possibly a rotor to move it so you can receive all
channels. Then you need either cable (if it even offers HD in your area) or
satellite). This calls for a stb which may have connectivity problems with
your TV and may need to be replaced in a few years. You may need to buy one or
more special cables, which are not inexpensive, may actually degrage the signal
(through conversion) and may be obsolete in a few years.

Finally, there is the issue of time-shifting. I believe this is a crucial
issue for HDTV. Personally, I don't want to buy into a technolgy that doesn't
enable time-shifting. But it seems Hollywood is putting many blockades in the
way of this. I am not into pirating- I wouldn't care if they made it so that a
stb w/ a pvr couldn't output the signal to anything but your TV, but I want to
be able to watch shows when it is convenient for me- I don't want TV scheduling
to limit my freedom. E.G. I really like NYPD Blue. But I don't want to have
to make sure I'm home every Tues at 10 pm just so I can watch it. Furthermore,
I like to listen to this show LOUD, making full use of my home theatre. Ten at
night is not a very neighborly time to be enjoying the dynamic capabilities of
your home theatre.

I guess the bottom line is that I want HD to be a more user-friendly
experience. Perhaps it is just wishful thinking, but I'd like to be able to
get an HDTV, perhaps one stb (whether cable or dish) and one HD recording
device, set them all up in my home theatre with a standardized system of
connections and receive all available HD content. I would think that a cable
or satellite co. that provided this would be able to gain the lion's share of
the market, but perhaps its too complicated to hope for such a thing.

"GrayhawkJW" wrote in message
...
Waiting is foolish.
HD is here now and it is here to stay.

I don't think its foolish at all for me- what is foolish is people
thinking
they know whats best for everyone. I am waiting for the technology to
mature a
bit so that the hardware prices come down, standards are developed and the
kinks get worked out more. In addition, there is not a lot of programming
available now "in my area." Maybe you don't mind the extra cost and
frustrations involved with early adoption, but that doesn't mean its
foolish
for some of us to want to wait it out...

Well said.

Leonard Caillouet

I am waiting for the technology to mature a
bit so that the hardware prices come down, standards are developed and the
kinks get worked out more.

The standards have been worked out. We have the 8VSB technology in place for
OTA HD, we have the cable technology worked out for cable HD delivery and we've
had the satellite technology for some time now.

GrayhawkJW ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
A "decent cable company?" Is there such a thing?

Yes, even in a small area (Lehigh Valley, PA): http://www.sectv.com/

Their HD channel lineup:

501 HBO Hi Definition
502 Showtime Hi Definition
503 3 - KYW Hi Definition
504 WB-17 Hi Definition
505 WTXF-29 Hi Definition
506 6 - WPVI Hi Definition
507 UPN-57 Phila. Hi Def.
508 HD Net Movies
509 HD Net Sports
510 10 - WCAU Hi Definition
512 PBS National Feed Hi Definition
516 ESPN Hi Definition
517 Discovery HD Theater

--
Jeff Rife |
301-916-8131 | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/RhymesW...ge/BigDogs.gif

A "decent cable company?" Is there such a thing?

Yes, even in a small area (Lehigh Valley, PA): http://www.sectv.com/

Their HD channel lineup:

501 HBO Hi Definition
502 Showtime Hi Definition
503 3 - KYW Hi Definition
504 WB-17 Hi Definition
505 WTXF-29 Hi Definition
506 6 - WPVI Hi Definition
507 UPN-57 Phila. Hi Def.
508 HD Net Movies
509 HD Net Sports
510 10 - WCAU Hi Definition
512 PBS National Feed Hi Definition
516 ESPN Hi Definition
517 Discovery HD Theater


Wow- that sounds more than decent- it sounds great. KYW, PVI and CAU are the
three major networks, right (its been a long time since I lived in the Philly
area)? it seems this cable co. has all the bases covered. They carry
everything that is broadcast in HD- yes? How unusual is this kind of cable
co.? If this were the norm, there wouldn't seem to be much of a problem(except
for the time-shifting issue). If my cable co. offered this lineup, I'd be
shopping for an HDTV right now!

Jeff, what is the cost to receive all of the above? What kind of stb do they
offer and how much (can you buy it or does it have to be leased)? What kind of
connections does the stb offer?

Its nice to know that there are some who are doing HDTV right.

I am waiting for the technology to mature a
bit so that the hardware prices come down, standards are developed and the
kinks get worked out more.

The standards have been worked out. We have the 8VSB technology in place for
OTA HD, we have the cable technology worked out for cable HD delivery and
we've
had the satellite technology for some time now.

What about the standards for connectivity? What about the standards for
recording?

I guess the bottom line is that I want HD to be a more user-friendly
experience.

There are some things that are SO good, they are worth the hassle. In my
mind,
HD is one of them.

I can understand your point, but its not just the hassle- its also the cost.
Not only the possibility of buying something that may become obsolete in the
near future, but also the cost associated with early adoption. For what I
would pay for a nice 60" RPT today, what kind of value will I be able to get
for that much money by merely waiting two years? If I was a high-salaried
exec, I wouldn't worry too much, but as a lowly school teacher, I have to
invest my money wisely...

GrayhawkJW ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
Wow- that sounds more than decent- it sounds great. KYW, PVI and CAU are the
three major networks, right (its been a long time since I lived in the Philly
area)?

I don't know...I don't live there. I just know the company because they
were the only one to have ESPN-HD from minute one.

it seems this cable co. has all the bases covered. They carry
everything that is broadcast in HD- yes?

No. They don't carry plain old HDNet, and Comcast SportsNet HD is listed
as "coming soon".

How unusual is this kind of cable
co.?

They are the oldest cable company in the U.S., and they are very unusual.
Since they aren't part of a MSO, they don't have to deal with all the
issues that come up there (no CBS on some, etc.).

Jeff, what is the cost to receive all of the above? What kind of stb do they
offer and how much (can you buy it or does it have to be leased)? What kind of
connections does the stb offer?

Again, I don't live there, but the web page has prices, and it is
$9.95/month for the HDTV STB (I think this is only a little more than the
SD STB), and you get ABC, NBC, CBS, WB, Fox, UPN, and PBS with no other
charges. Discovery HD Theater, ESPN HD, HDNet Sports, HDNet Movies, and
Comcast SportsNet HD are in a package that is $11.99/month more. HBO-HD and
Showtime-HD require you to subscribe to HBO and Showtime packages, just like
everywhere else.

--
Jeff Rife | "Women...can't live with 'em...can't explain to
301-916-8131 | the desk clerk why you only need one bed."
|
| -- Ellen

$9.95/month for the HDTV STB (I think this is only a little more than the
SD STB), and you get ABC, NBC, CBS, WB, Fox, UPN, and PBS with no other
charges. Discovery HD Theater, ESPN HD, HDNet Sports, HDNet Movies, and
Comcast SportsNet HD are in a package that is $11.99/month more. HBO-HD and
Showtime-HD require you to subscribe to HBO and Showtime packages, just like
everywhere else.

this sounds great- too bad more cable co.'s can,t be like this.

GrayhawkJW ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
$9.95/month for the HDTV STB (I think this is only a little more than the
SD STB), and you get ABC, NBC, CBS, WB, Fox, UPN, and PBS with no other
charges. Discovery HD Theater, ESPN HD, HDNet Sports, HDNet Movies, and
Comcast SportsNet HD are in a package that is $11.99/month more. HBO-HD and
Showtime-HD require you to subscribe to HBO and Showtime packages, just like
everywhere else.

this sounds great- too bad more cable co.'s can,t be like this.

Yeah, when a HD-cable DVR comes out, it would almost be worth moving there
for all the shows. :)

--
Jeff Rife | "_Grease_ is one of my favorite movies. A
301-916-8131 | sociopathic greaser in a leather jacket turns an
| innocent high school girl into a slut.
|
| Kind of like _My Fair Lady_ in reverse."
|
| -- Scot Gardner, in alt.video.dvd

"GrayhawkJW" wrote in message
...
: Waiting is foolish.
: HD is here now and it is here to stay.
:
: I am waiting for the technology to mature a
: bit so that the hardware prices come down, standards are developed and the
: kinks get worked out more

=================
Just so you know, standards are developed and being used.
Prices are coming way down...................