wrote:
Bob,

I was again accused of being 'you' over at AVS Forum because I asked what is the difference between the front end of a 8-VSB tuner and the
front end of a COFDM tuner. You keep saying it is cheaper to make a COFDM tuner, but with 8-VSB receiver chips priced so low ($8.), how can
that be? A COFDM HDTV receiver will need a scaler and the same up-front components as a 8-VSB receiver,...right? Also you seem to be
comparing the cost of USA 1080i/720p capable receivers with UK's meager 600 line capable receivers. Isn't some of the price difference due to
the fact that one is high definition and the other is not?

IB (not Bob Miller - laughs!)


http://www.angliac.com/newsarchive/8...rticle_id=1700

The latest single chip COFDM from STMicroelectronics is $4.50

And then you have IP cost of at least $6 for 8-VSB compared to 60 Cents
for COFDM.

After they mark up these differing cost and factor in real market size,
that is what they can realistically sell, you have a pretty wide price
differential.

We have documented a $3.50 price difference for the chip and a $5.40 IP
cost difference which totals $8.90. Mark that up a couple times and you
have real money.Especially when you are talking about under $100
receivers. Take out marketing and sales cost of at least 50% and where
do you hide an $8.90 difference after a 100% markup?

Both have similar HD cost so where ever you end up there is still a
major difference.

And then of course I would add on mucho additional antenna cost for
8-VSB. Time, aggravation and money all add to the cost of 8-VSB.

Basically 8-VSB was designed for broadcasters to lower their cost with
the thought in mind that viewers would never use OTA much so why worry
about what it would cost them. And it is going that way. The only fly in
ointment of this whole plan is that other countries actually came up
with a modulation that works real well for the viewer, the designers
were from the beginning thinking about the viewer and their cost.

Bob Miller

Tim Keating wrote:


The member Bob quoted "Gazza487" who signed up in Jul 2004..

Right it was "Gazza487". I think I will contact him for more information
on his situation.

Bob Miller

"Bob Miller" wrote in message nk.net...
snip quotes
You don't know if your particularly interested in watching TV over
the Internet because you don't know what the offering will be or
what the experience will be like.

If an Internet feed replaces cable and satellite, then I'll embrace it,
assuming that they don't try to overcharge like cable and satellite.
I'm not willing to pay for any programming that includes commercials.

You may not like the idea of watching TV on your cell phone but the fact
that a cell phone or other such small device can receive the DTV signal
with an antenna one inch long is what is important. Using such small
device you will be able to watch DTV on any size screen you want
anywhere you want including in your living room which is the only place
you want to watch it I assume from your post. Your not open to any new
idea what-so-ever no matter how much easier or cheaper it might be.

You're selling the sizzle; I want to see the steak. Point me to a theoretical
comparison of COFDM vs 8-VSB. I do understand that you have an
uphill battle to fight, being a lone voice crying in the wilderness.

You are just hog tied to what you know right now and no one can
change your mind about anything ever. Did I paint the picture right?

No. I don't really care how it's done, as long as it works. I haven't
read enough theory about COFDM or 8-VSB to choose, and so far
the FCC hasn't asked for my opinion. I'm just saying that unless TV
programming is suddenly going to get a lot more intelligent (which I
doubt) or the Internet is going to take over, OTA needs to be viable.

And I am sure you are not the only one like that or who feels that way.

Bob Miller

"OTA needs to be viable"

It will be once they cut off analog transmission. Most Americans just
don't take digital OTA seriously now, but it will be as serious as a
heart attack when they unplug analog. I think even LG will then
reconsider their departure from making OTA tuners.

IB

"We have documented a $3.50 price difference for the chip and a $5.40
IP"

I don't know what you mean by "IP", but you are comparing the cost of a
standard definition COFDM receiver chip with a high definition 8-VSB
chip. Europe does not have OTA HD, so your comparison is false. Then
you talk about antenna costs, but in your own tests the 5th generation
LG chip did best with a simple loop antenna, which can be had on the
Web for as little as $.29 each at SJGreatDeals.com.

Chips are made now with a 90 nanometer process and will soon go down to
65 nanometers. They will only get smaller and cheaper. I do not see
a significant long term cost benefit.

Also didn't South Korea recently pick 8-VSB over COFDM as their
transmission standard? They must have all the facts, yet they picked
8-VSB. Why?

You always say how lucky the British are to have their TV system, but
in about 3 minutes I am going to watch DESPERATE HOUSEWIVES in 720p.
Can they do that in London for free OTA? I have been enjoying FREE
HDTV for almost a year now, and for most Europeans HDTV is still a pipe
dream.

IB

L David Matheny wrote:

No. I don't really care how it's done, as long as it works. I haven't
read enough theory about COFDM or 8-VSB to choose, and so far
the FCC hasn't asked for my opinion. I'm just saying that unless TV
programming is suddenly going to get a lot more intelligent (which I
doubt) or the Internet is going to take over, OTA needs to be viable.

OTA needs to be viable, I agree.

It is not viable today with 8-VSB and over a very short period of time
it will become far less viable.

Bob Miller

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 02:06:30 GMT, Bob Miller
wrote:

Tim Keating wrote:
On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 19:41:25 GMT, Bob Miller
wrote:


Tim Keating wrote:

On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 18:06:59 GMT, Bob Miller
wrote:


From Digital Spy forum

http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/...d.php?t=205206

MRDAB writes...
"Yeah I got my power arc aerial from there. it needs 2 batteries once in
a blue moon (use some good duracells) it lives ontop of my wardrobe and
is very happily picking up all muxes.

I'm abt 30 miles from sutton coldfield"


Snip...

The original AV forum poster doesn't mention in which direction he located from Sutton Coldfield; as there are several repeaters deployed
in and around the SC area. (Many of them well within a 30 mile radius, I.E. The AV forum poster could be right next to a repeater,
but our resident COFDM Troll would never tell you about that tidbit of info).


I assume he knows wherefrom he gets his signal. He could easily be in a direction from Sutton Coldfield that has no repeater. Here is a map of
transmitter sites.

http://www.wolfbane.com/articles/ukdmap2.htm


Judging by my recent research in thed SC area..
I would say the map quoted by your link is incomplete.
(I.E. It's missing several transmission towers).

Here is a partial MAP of DTV retransmission towers within 56 miles of Sutton Coldfield.. Note: Each tower transmits roughly the same
programming.

http://www.kswindells.34sp.com/freev...meNGR=SK113003


Well according to your map I was wrong. I thought there was three
repeaters within 30 miles of Sutton Coldfield but there are only two. In
your post above you say there are "Many of them well within a 30 mile
radius". The only two I can see on your map are Brierley Hill: 24.6 km
: 233' and Bromsgrove: 31.9 km : 211', both to the South West.

Soo.. And several of them are just outside of 30 mile
range(48.3km)..

29.. Fenton.. 49.5km
77.. The Wrekin 49.1 km
78.. The Wrekin B 49.1 km

Still speaks to COFDM's problem..
@ 30 to 31 Miles it already needs repeaters to function correctly.

As for the rest of your post .. snippy...
Comparing apples to oranges.. (non-contigous(UK-COFDM) verses
contiguous(US-8VSB)

The UK's OTA COFDM coverage is spotty as best. No contiguous
coverage.

B.T.W.. The UK has a one time payment (150 pounds, no monthly
charges) satellite service to fill in the transmission gaps. Note:
Sat users still have to pay the UK's annual TV tax.

Bob Miller wrote:
wrote:

Bob,

I was again accused of being 'you' over at AVS Forum because I asked
what is the difference between the front end of a 8-VSB tuner and the
front end of a COFDM tuner. You keep saying it is cheaper to make a
COFDM tuner, but with 8-VSB receiver chips priced so low ($8.), how can
that be? A COFDM HDTV receiver will need a scaler and the same
up-front components as a 8-VSB receiver,...right? Also you seem to be
comparing the cost of USA 1080i/720p capable receivers with UK's
meager 600 line capable receivers. Isn't some of the price difference
due to
the fact that one is high definition and the other is not?

IB (not Bob Miller - laughs!)


http://www.angliac.com/newsarchive/8...rticle_id=1700

The latest single chip COFDM from STMicroelectronics is $4.50

And then you have IP cost of at least $6 for 8-VSB compared to 60 Cents
for COFDM.

After they mark up these differing cost and factor in real market size,
that is what they can realistically sell, you have a pretty wide price
differential.

We have documented a $3.50 price difference for the chip and a $5.40 IP
cost difference which totals $8.90. Mark that up a couple times and you
have real money.

Of course bob completely ignores standard practices. Purchased IP does
not get marked up the same way as purchased built goods. He keeps
inflating the IP costs to defend the indefensible. Even LG told him, and
he quoted them, that the modulation scheme had very little impact on
price when compared to the HD decoding section.

--
Matthew

I'm a contractor. If you want an opinion, I'll sell you one.
Which one do you want?