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TV switchover fiasco
I found this snippet in this week's ERT, personally I don't think that there
is anywhere near that amount of early receiver's still in use, but let's hope that progress for the overwhelming majority won't be held up by a vociferous few. 29 March 2005 TV switchover fiasco GOVERNMENT regulator Ofcom is backing a change to the Freeview TV signal that will render a million set-top boxes obsolete. The switch from the 2k to 8k transmission standard will also adversely affect 75,000 integrated digital TVs (IDTV). The proposed modification would provide the UK with a more reliable digital terrestrial TV (DTT) system but because many older ITV Digital and Freeview receivers are incapable of handling the 8k carrier system they will stop working if the change is made. |
Ivan wrote:
I found this snippet in this week's ERT, personally I don't think that there is anywhere near that amount of early receiver's still in use, but let's hope that progress for the overwhelming majority won't be held up by a vociferous few. It would certainly put me off DTT - I don't want to have to buy a new box every couple of years. If people find that they are having to do this the no-subscription no-ongoing-cost attraction of Freeview will diminish and more people will rent their boxes from Sky. Government policy couldn't possibly be influenced by what would be good commercially for Sky could it, any more than be influenced by the fact that the owner of Sky also owns the Sun. "No party in the last 30 years has won a general election while facing concerted personal opposition from The Sun." "The Sun is courted by all politicians because its sales are concentrated in belts of marginal constituencies in the south and south east. It is also read, politicians believe, by millions of people at election time who do not normally follow politics very closely." "In 1992, opinion polls showed that Neil Kinnock was likely to win the general election and defeat the incumbent Conservatives under John Major or that, at least, the result would be very close. But in the final week of the election campaign a series of devastating personal attacks on Kinnock seemed to deter enough potential supporters. The Conservatives got back into power with a solid majority and The Sun ran a headline claiming to have "won" the election for Mr Major." "Shortly before the 1997 general election, Labour persuaded The Sun not only to spike it guns, but to turn them on its Tory rivals - and The Sun found itself on the winning side once again. Both the new Prime Minister, Tony Blair, and Rupert Murdoch, owner of The Sun, certainly thought it had played a vital role in the election." "After his landslide victory Mr Blair wrote to thank the paper's editor, adding: "You really did make a difference."" "Between 1991 and 1996, News International recorded profits of more than a billion pounds on which little tax was paid. Murdoch was able to take advantage of assorted tax havens to minimise the tax bill. The Sun claimed the credit for the Tory victory in the 1992 elections. John Major became premier. The front page of the 9 April 92 issue had the head of the Labour leader, Neil Kinnock inside an electric bulb and carried the pungent caption: If Kinnock wins today, will the last person to leave Britain please turn out the lights? The next general election was due in 1997. The new Labour leader, Tony Blair, knew he had to woo Rupert Murdoch to win. He travelled all the way to Australia to address the media executives as Murdoch’s guest and assured them he would bow to their economic ideology (neo-liberalism) which favours more wealth for the few at the expense of the many. Having secured his own terms, Murdoch promised Blair of his support. The Sun ran a frontpage headline in 2-inch letters: THE SUN BACKS BLAIR. On 27 April, just 4 days before the election, the News of the World, the sister sex-and-scandal weekly followed with the headline: WE BACK BLAIR – Man for the New Millennium. After Labour’s landslide victory, the Sun boasted in another headline: IT’S THE SUN WOT SWUNG IT. (It had said the same after the Tory victory in 1992.)"[*] Quotes from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1209115.stm Except for[*] from http://www.goacom.com/overseas-diges...tabloids2.html Floppy Bunny |
Erm... I'm probaly being silly, but what does the 2k and 8k mean?
Ben ~~~ Ivan wrote: I found this snippet in this week's ERT, personally I don't think that there is anywhere near that amount of early receiver's still in use, but let's hope that progress for the overwhelming majority won't be held up by a vociferous few. 29 March 2005 TV switchover fiasco GOVERNMENT regulator Ofcom is backing a change to the Freeview TV signal that will render a million set-top boxes obsolete. The switch from the 2k to 8k transmission standard will also adversely affect 75,000 integrated digital TVs (IDTV). The proposed modification would provide the UK with a more reliable digital terrestrial TV (DTT) system but because many older ITV Digital and Freeview receivers are incapable of handling the 8k carrier system they will stop working if the change is made. |
It's the number of carriers in the COFDM signals
take a look at http://www.gigawave.co.uk/cofdm.html |
Ivan said the following on 2005-03-30 13:16:
I found this snippet in this week's ERT, personally I don't think that there is anywhere near that amount of early receiver's still in use, but let's hope that progress for the overwhelming majority won't be held up by a vociferous few. 29 March 2005 TV switchover fiasco GOVERNMENT regulator Ofcom is backing a change to the Freeview TV signal that will render a million set-top boxes obsolete. The switch from the 2k to 8k transmission standard will also adversely affect 75,000 integrated digital TVs (IDTV). The proposed modification would provide the UK with a more reliable digital terrestrial TV (DTT) system but because many older ITV Digital and Freeview receivers are incapable of handling the 8k carrier system they will stop working if the change is made. For those in Borders, Wales and West Country the newest 8k incomplient boxes will be 6 years old, so how many of them will still be in working order come switch over (no doubt many Pioneers have been dumped as the remotes pack in after about 8 months)? (Obviously a non-issue in the Channel Islands) If the numbers are relativly small it could well be worth while for the government (or ITV PLC?) to replace affected STBs FoC to enable us to be on the best footing for the future rather than sticking with the mess that is 2k. (It will also allow SFNs to be added in where needed, ideal for cities like London and Edingburgh that have significant pockets of poor reception that can't be fixed due to lack of frequencies. Kev |
"Floppy Bunny" wrote in message ... Ivan wrote: I found this snippet in this week's ERT, personally I don't think that there is anywhere near that amount of early receiver's still in use, but let's hope that progress for the overwhelming majority won't be held up by a vociferous few. It would certainly put me off DTT - I don't want to have to buy a new box every couple of years. If people find that they are having to do this the no-subscription no-ongoing-cost attraction of Freeview will diminish and more people will rent their boxes from Sky. Floppy Bunny As far as I know 2K chipsets only affected early On-digital boxes, also after ITV digital folded a large number of subscribers 'won' their receivers anyway. If a tiny handful of people are still using slow early generation receivers ( from what I can gather later On-digital boxes were equipped for use with 8 K) and have owned them for more than five years, then surely they've had their money's worth? Especially when one considers that for the cost of a single TV licence, it's now possible to purchase a couple of good quality Freeview receiver's! |
Ivan wrote:
I found this snippet in this week's ERT, personally I don't think that there is anywhere near that amount of early receiver's still in use, but let's hope that progress for the overwhelming majority won't be held up by a vociferous few. 29 March 2005 TV switchover fiasco GOVERNMENT regulator Ofcom is backing a change to the Freeview TV signal that will render a million set-top boxes obsolete. The switch from the 2k to 8k transmission standard will also adversely affect 75,000 integrated digital TVs (IDTV). The proposed modification would provide the UK with a more reliable digital terrestrial TV (DTT) system but because many older ITV Digital and Freeview receivers are incapable of handling the 8k carrier system they will stop working if the change is made. That would be suicide, if that happened, then people will just say sod digital and go back to analouge. I do not think it will happen, if it does, then how can we trsut Ofcom not to change the system when it likes? |
Ad said the following on 2005-03-30 18:40:
Ivan wrote: That would be suicide, if that happened, then people will just say sod digital and go back to analouge. I do not think it will happen, if it does, then how can we trsut Ofcom not to change the system when it likes? It's ITV Digitals fault. 8K transmission falls within the DVB-T standard, but On digital rushed to market with boxes that arn't fully complient with the specs. IMHO ITV PLC should be responsable for replacing all 2K (on digital/itv digital branded) only boxes still in use when the first analogue station is turned off. Kev |
"Ad" wrote in message ... Ivan wrote: I found this snippet in this week's ERT, personally I don't think that there is anywhere near that amount of early receiver's still in use, but let's hope that progress for the overwhelming majority won't be held up by a vociferous few. 29 March 2005 TV switchover fiasco GOVERNMENT regulator Ofcom is backing a change to the Freeview TV signal that will render a million set-top boxes obsolete. The switch from the 2k to 8k transmission standard will also adversely affect 75,000 integrated digital TVs (IDTV). The proposed modification would provide the UK with a more reliable digital terrestrial TV (DTT) system but because many older ITV Digital and Freeview receivers are incapable of handling the 8k carrier system they will stop working if the change is made. That would be suicide, if that happened, then people will just say sod digital and go back to analouge. I do not think it will happen, if it does, then how can we trsut Ofcom not to change the system when it likes? As well over 90 per cent of Freeviews near 6 million viewer's probably have 8K compatible receivers anyway, and won't notice any difference (apart from maybe improved reception for lots of people) then I can't really see why people would be turning away from Freeview 'en mass' can you? |
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:12:10 +0100, "Ivan"
wrote: "Floppy Bunny" wrote in message ... Ivan wrote: I found this snippet in this week's ERT, personally I don't think that there is anywhere near that amount of early receiver's still in use, but let's hope that progress for the overwhelming majority won't be held up by a vociferous few. It would certainly put me off DTT - I don't want to have to buy a new box every couple of years. If people find that they are having to do this the no-subscription no-ongoing-cost attraction of Freeview will diminish and more people will rent their boxes from Sky. Floppy Bunny As far as I know 2K chipsets only affected early On-digital boxes, also after ITV digital folded a large number of subscribers 'won' their receivers anyway. If a tiny handful of people are still using slow early generation receivers ( from what I can gather later On-digital boxes were equipped for use with 8 K) and have owned them for more than five years, then surely they've had their money's worth? Especially when one considers that for the cost of a single TV licence, it's now possible to purchase a couple of good quality Freeview receiver's! Well said that man. Charlie -- Remove NO-SPOO-PLEASE from my email address to reply Please send no unsolicited email or foodstuffs |
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:57:06 +0100, "Ivan"
wrote: | As well over 90 per cent of Freeviews near 6 million viewer's probably have | 8K compatible receivers anyway, and won't notice any difference (apart from | maybe improved reception for lots of people) then I can't really see why | people would be turning away from Freeview 'en mass' can you? Does anyone have a list of boxes which *are* or *are not* 8k compatible? or a way of testing boxes? -- Dave F |
Ivan wrote:
That would be suicide, if that happened, then people will just say sod digital and go back to analouge. iirc, the ofcom consultation document was asking whether they should switch to 8k as soon as analogue is switched off, so there won't be any analogue to go back to. As well over 90 per cent of Freeviews near 6 million viewer's probably have 8K compatible receivers anyway, and won't notice any difference (apart from maybe improved reception for lots of people) then I can't really see why people would be turning away from Freeview 'en mass' can you? One of the main criticisms of the current DTT arrangement is that it doesn't work well with portable TVs and set-top aerials. 8k should help quite a bit with this, so I can see it being a real success. |
"Dave Fawthrop" wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:57:06 +0100, "Ivan" wrote: | As well over 90 per cent of Freeviews near 6 million viewer's probably have | 8K compatible receivers anyway, and won't notice any difference (apart from | maybe improved reception for lots of people) then I can't really see why | people would be turning away from Freeview 'en mass' can you? Does anyone have a list of boxes which *are* or *are not* 8k compatible? or a way of testing boxes? I don't really know Dave, but from everything I've been able to ascertain over the last few years on this newsgroup and others from people a lot more knowledgeable on this subject than myself, it would appear that shortly after the initial introduction of On-digital in the late Nineties, 8K chipsets became readily available and were fitted as standard in later receivers. If this is correct then one must assume that by the time Freeview took over that out of the existing 1 million On-digital subscribers, many will have dumped their receivers and switched to Sky, a sizeable chunk of the remaining ones will have been 8Kcompatible anyway and many others will have upgraded to more up-to-date Freeview receivers. So despite what the article says (around a million people losing reception) I find it hard to accept that this is true, especially as I don't think that there are 'any' Freeview receiver's that were fitted with 2K chipsets... unless someone out there knows different and can enlighten us with some more details. -- Dave F |
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:46:34 GMT, Kev wrote:
Ad said the following on 2005-03-30 18:40: Ivan wrote: That would be suicide, if that happened, then people will just say sod digital and go back to analouge. I do not think it will happen, if it does, then how can we trsut Ofcom not to change the system when it likes? It's ITV Digitals fault. 8K transmission falls within the DVB-T standard, but On digital rushed to market with boxes that arn't fully complient with the specs. IMHO ITV PLC should be responsable for replacing all 2K (on digital/itv digital branded) only boxes still in use when the first analogue station is turned off. You seem to be forgetting that ONdigital was a subsidiary company that went into receivership which means that legally ITV plc have no liability for its obligations. Scott |
Ivan wrote:
"Ad" wrote in message ... Ivan wrote: I found this snippet in this week's ERT, personally I don't think that there is anywhere near that amount of early receiver's still in use, but let's hope that progress for the overwhelming majority won't be held up by a vociferous few. 29 March 2005 TV switchover fiasco GOVERNMENT regulator Ofcom is backing a change to the Freeview TV signal that will render a million set-top boxes obsolete. The switch from the 2k to 8k transmission standard will also adversely affect 75,000 integrated digital TVs (IDTV). The proposed modification would provide the UK with a more reliable digital terrestrial TV (DTT) system but because many older ITV Digital and Freeview receivers are incapable of handling the 8k carrier system they will stop working if the change is made. That would be suicide, if that happened, then people will just say sod digital and go back to analouge. I do not think it will happen, if it does, then how can we trsut Ofcom not to change the system when it likes? As well over 90 per cent of Freeviews near 6 million viewer's probably have 8K compatible receivers anyway, and won't notice any difference (apart from maybe improved reception for lots of people) then I can't really see why people would be turning away from Freeview 'en mass' can you? Not to mention the fact that 8K allows national SFNs, which should allow us to receive far more multiplexes than we can currently. -- Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices: http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm |
Ivan wrote:
As far as I know 2K chipsets only affected early On-digital boxes, also after ITV digital folded a large number of subscribers 'won' their receivers anyway. If a tiny handful of people are still using slow early generation receivers ( from what I can gather later On-digital boxes were equipped for use with 8 K) and have owned them for more than five years, then surely they've had their money's worth? Especially when one considers that for the cost of a single TV licence, it's now possible to purchase a couple of good quality Freeview receiver's! So these people can forget about paying their license for 12 months, so they can get a couple of boxes. I do not think the BBc will take that excuse somehow. Only a years T.V license, that is in total over £200, that is a lot of money for asome people. |
Kev wrote:
It's ITV Digitals fault. 8K transmission falls within the DVB-T standard, but On digital rushed to market with boxes that arn't fully complient with the specs. You can also blame the government and they gave the permission for it to go though. IMHO ITV PLC should be responsable for replacing all 2K (on digital/itv digital branded) only boxes still in use when the first analogue station is turned off. ITv can only just afford to keep itself going. |
Ivan wrote:
That would be suicide, if that happened, then people will just say sod digital and go back to analouge. I do not think it will happen, if it does, then how can we trsut Ofcom not to change the system when it likes? As well over 90 per cent of Freeviews near 6 million viewer's probably have 8K compatible receivers anyway, and won't notice any difference (apart from That is just guess work, a lot of people may still have the older Ondigital boxes even when/if the analogue is switched off. what about the first no Ondigital set top box, the small Pace, can that cope with 8K? maybe improved reception for lots of people) then I can't really see why people would be turning away from Freeview 'en mass' can you? That depends if people can trust Ofcom and the government and how often is the goal post going to be moved. Look at it this way, have had analogue T.v for years, the only major change was from VHF to UHF, then we went for years with the same system, ok, so we had a couple more channels, but my old 25 years old Fergi that I got up here will still work with the analogue system, I got a 30 years old Black and white portable, that will also work with the analogue system. Now if Ofcom is going to change the system every 5 to 10 years, do you not think people will get a bit ****ed off? What about people who spent a fair bit of money on Integrated digital T.vs, how are they going to feel when they find out that they will not be able to use it? About time this country made a standard and stayed with it. I doubt very much if changing to 8K will make any difference to quality, unless the bit rates are increased. My faith in this government, Ofcom and our digital t.v system have decreased. |
Ad wrote:
Now if Ofcom is going to change the system every 5 to 10 years, do you not think people will get a bit ****ed off? The system needs to change in several ways. For example, MPEG2 is outdated now, more efficient compression schemes such as H264 could be used. The key is to have receivers/decoders that are either software upgradeable or cheap enough to be effectively disposable. The receiver/decoder should not be integrated into the display. Display devices are expensive items that people will not want to be forced to replace every 10 years (although most people do replace their TV every 10 years anyway, but being made to do it is a different matter entirely). What about people who spent a fair bit of money on Integrated digital T.vs, how are they going to feel when they find out that they will not be able to use it? About time this country made a standard and stayed with it. They can use it - they can get a cheap set top box like everyone else. I doubt very much if changing to 8K will make any difference to quality, unless the bit rates are increased. Having more COFDM sub-carriers will make not the slightest difference to picture quality, what it does is improve reliability in the presence of impulse interference. The robustness of the signal (influenced by choices such as 2k/8k and 64QAM/16QAM) is an entirely separate thing from the quality of the picture, which is largely determined by bitrate and the quality of the source material. |
"Ad" wrote in message ... Ivan wrote: That would be suicide, if that happened, then people will just say sod digital and go back to analouge. I do not think it will happen, if it does, then how can we trsut Ofcom not to change the system when it likes? As well over 90 per cent of Freeviews near 6 million viewer's probably have 8K compatible receivers anyway, and won't notice any difference (apart from That is just guess work, a lot of people may still have the older Ondigital boxes even when/if the analogue is switched off. what about the first no Ondigital set top box, the small Pace, can that cope with 8K? maybe improved reception for lots of people) then I can't really see why people would be turning away from Freeview 'en mass' can you? That depends if people can trust Ofcom and the government and how often is the goal post going to be moved. Look at it this way, have had analogue T.v for years, the only major change was from VHF to UHF, then we went for years with the same system, ok, so we had a couple more channels, but my old 25 years old Fergi that I got up here will still work with the analogue system, I got a 30 years old Black and white portable, that will also work with the analogue system. Now if Ofcom is going to change the system every 5 to 10 years, do you not think people will get a bit ****ed off? What about people who spent a fair bit of money on Integrated digital T.vs, how are they going to feel when they find out that they will not be able to use it? About time this country made a standard and stayed with it. I doubt very much if changing to 8K will make any difference to quality, unless the bit rates are increased. My faith in this government, Ofcom and our digital t.v system have decreased. Being in the TV trade at the time, I can well remember the moans and groans from people who had perfectly working VHF 405 TV's so didn't see any reason to pay for a new UHF aerial and TV receiver, which in real terms cost them a helluva lot more than a present-day 'possible' replacement for a five-year-old digi box. Remember it was to appease a few thousand pre-war viewer's with obsolete TV sets (which had been in storage for years, and would therefore have possibly blown up when reconnected) that we were lumbered with the 405 system for donkey's years after the rest of Europe and other parts of world had opted for 625 lines. I think that even you must agree that there are times when we have to move on, otherwise we would all still be stuck in the 1960s! |
DAB sounds worse than FM wrote:
Not to mention the fact that 8K allows national SFNs, which should allow us to receive far more multiplexes than we can currently. Here we go again, what is it with you people about more muxes and more bloody channels? We can not fill up the ones we got now without a lot of repeats and crap. What we need is decent picture quality. you yourself moan about the quality of DAB radio, and why is it so crap? Because they just squeeze more and more. We do not need more muxes, we need less channels and more quality. for **** sake, this country gets bloody worse. |
"Ad" wrote in message ... Ivan wrote: That would be suicide, if that happened, then people will just say sod digital and go back to analouge. I do not think it will happen, if it does, then how can we trsut Ofcom not to change the system when it likes? As well over 90 per cent of Freeviews near 6 million viewer's probably have 8K compatible receivers anyway, and won't notice any difference (apart from That is just guess work, a lot of people may still have the older Ondigital boxes even when/if the analogue is switched off. what about the first no Ondigital set top box, the small Pace, can that cope with 8K? Like most other Freeview boxes (even the very early ones) the Pace digital adaptor coped admirably. DTVA technical specification includes: Currently 14 free-to-view digital channels Automatic and Manual channel search Quick Electronic Programme Guide with favourite channel selection Digital Video Broadcasting (DVB) Subtitle system Capabilities - Fully DVB compatible Input Frequency - UHF (430-862 MHz) - Bandwidth: 8 MHz Demodulator - COFDM waveform, 2k/8k modes - Fully DVB-T ETSI 300 744 compatible Video Output - PAL, RGB, S-VHS Graphic User Interface - English and Welsh Software - downloadable Power and Consumption - Low power operation 8 watts - Ultra Low Power Standby 1 watt An MHEG software download which will enable viewers to access interactive digital text services will be ready in July 2002. |
Ad wrote:
DAB sounds worse than FM wrote: Not to mention the fact that 8K allows national SFNs, which should allow us to receive far more multiplexes than we can currently. Here we go again, what is it with you people about more muxes and more bloody channels? Wrong; more muxes = more capacity = eases pressure on bit rates. We can not fill up the ones we got now without a lot of repeats and crap. What we need is decent picture quality. Then we need more capacity. you yourself moan about the quality of DAB radio, and why is it so crap? Because they just squeeze more and more. No, because they leave a lot of capacity unused, they just don't want to increase their bit rates on DAB. We do not need more muxes, we need less channels and more quality. Or vice versa.... -- Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices: http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm |
"DAB sounds worse than FM" wrote in message ... Ivan wrote: "Ad" wrote in message ... Ivan wrote: I found this snippet in this week's ERT, personally I don't think that there is anywhere near that amount of early receiver's still in use, but let's hope that progress for the overwhelming majority won't be held up by a vociferous few. 29 March 2005 TV switchover fiasco GOVERNMENT regulator Ofcom is backing a change to the Freeview TV signal that will render a million set-top boxes obsolete. The switch from the 2k to 8k transmission standard will also adversely affect 75,000 integrated digital TVs (IDTV). The proposed modification would provide the UK with a more reliable digital terrestrial TV (DTT) system but because many older ITV Digital and Freeview receivers are incapable of handling the 8k carrier system they will stop working if the change is made. That would be suicide, if that happened, then people will just say sod digital and go back to analouge. I do not think it will happen, if it does, then how can we trsut Ofcom not to change the system when it likes? As well over 90 per cent of Freeviews near 6 million viewer's probably have 8K compatible receivers anyway, and won't notice any difference (apart from maybe improved reception for lots of people) then I can't really see why people would be turning away from Freeview 'en mass' can you? Not to mention the fact that 8K allows national SFNs, which should allow us to receive far more multiplexes than we can currently. Agreed Steve, it's only my opinion so I could well be totally wrong, but I sincerely believe the that if they switched over to 8K tomorrow, it wouldn't really cause anywhere near the amount of problems that the news item predicts. -- Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices: http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm |
Ad wrote:
Ben wrote: Ivan wrote: That would be suicide, if that happened, then people will just say sod digital and go back to analouge. iirc, the ofcom consultation document was asking whether they should switch to 8k as soon as analogue is switched off, so there won't be any analogue to go back to. Which means that some poor sods will find out on the day of switch off that they can not get any T.V 'fraid so :-) One of the main criticisms of the current DTT arrangement is that it doesn't work well with portable TVs and set-top aerials. 8k should help quite a bit with this, so I can see it being a real success. The problem here is this is just guess work, no one knows if this 8K will make a difference. Not at all, the effect of increasing the number of COFDM subcarriers is well known. |
Ad wrote:
DAB sounds worse than FM wrote: Here we go again, what is it with you people about more muxes and more bloody channels? Wrong; more muxes = more capacity = eases pressure on bit rates. Do you really think it will work that way? No, they will cram crap into the extra space. Having more capacity will ease the overall pressure on bit rates. I'm not saying that when we have 8K they will move channels onto new multiplexes to increase the bit rates of channels we already have, but at least there won't be the kind of pressure on new channels that there currently is on bit rates now. We can not fill up the ones we got now without a lot of repeats and crap. What we need is decent picture quality. Then we need more capacity. What we need is to take some of the crap channels off. Top up T.v should never have been allowed to happen. Too many shopping channels Seeing as that is not going to happen then it is better to add more capacity. No, because they leave a lot of capacity unused, they just don't want to increase their bit rates on DAB. That do not make sense, surley it do not cost any more to increase the bit rate Compare the number of actual 160k+ stations with the number of possible 160k+ stations on he http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/wa...x_capacity.htm Basically, the commercial radio groups do not want to use bit rates higher than the minimum because they don't want us to get used to higher audio quality. Incidentally, the commercial radio groups are all in favour of lowering the bit rates from what they are now (98% using 128kbps) to 112kbps, and Ofcom proposed this in the recent DAB public consultation. -- Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices: http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm |
Ivan wrote:
"DAB sounds worse than FM" wrote in message ... As well over 90 per cent of Freeviews near 6 million viewer's probably have 8K compatible receivers anyway, and won't notice any difference (apart from maybe improved reception for lots of people) then I can't really see why people would be turning away from Freeview 'en mass' can you? Not to mention the fact that 8K allows national SFNs, which should allow us to receive far more multiplexes than we can currently. Agreed Steve, it's only my opinion so I could well be totally wrong, but I sincerely believe the that if they switched over to 8K tomorrow, it wouldn't really cause anywhere near the amount of problems that the news item predicts. I agree, because according to a book I've got about DVB it said that just 6 months after OnDigital launched DVB-T chips supporting both 2K and 8K appeared, so there shouldn't be that many receivers that cannot handle 8K out there, and most of them will be replaced by the time any change to 8K occurs. And at the end of the day, by the time such a change happens Freeview receivers will probably cost about £20 or less, and I'd say they'd be doing any owners of 2K boxes a favour, because they're bound to be ultra-sluggish at changing channels and navigating text etc. Ultimately, the price of annoying a very small minority of people is undoubtedly worth paying because of the number of muxes that such a change would allow. Currently channels 21 - 68 excluding channels 36 and 38 are used for TV, and yet we only have 6 multiplexes. Theoretically, with national SFNs you can have 1 multiplex per channel right across the country, so theoretically we could have 64 multiplexes! It won't be as simple as that, but it should allow us all to have far more national multiplexes than are possible with 2K. -- Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices: http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm |
Ad wrote:
Ben wrote: The system needs to change in several ways. For example, MPEG2 is outdated now, more efficient compression schemes such as H264 could be This is the problem, things changes too much. Current DTT receivers *CAN NOT* decode HDTV transmissions. HDTV is going to happen, so anybody that wants to receive HDTV on DTT needs a new set-top box and it makes perfect sense to change the video codec to the most modern video codec available. What about people who spent a fair bit of money on Integrated digital T.vs, how are they going to feel when they find out that they will not be able to use it? About time this country made a standard and stayed with it. They can use it - they can get a cheap set top box like everyone else. Fantastic. they paid over the odds for their T.v and will have to use another box. No, not another box, a different box. And if they're just changing the 2K box for one that can receive 8K then you'll probably be talking about such massive expense as £20 by the time such a change happens. Having more COFDM sub-carriers will make not the slightest difference to picture quality, what it does is improve reliability in the presence of so we are back to square one. No; more multiplexes = more capacity = less pressure on bit rates. impulse interference. The robustness of the signal (influenced by choices such as 2k/8k and 64QAM/16QAM) is an entirely separate thing from the quality of the picture, which is largely determined by bitrate and the quality of the source material. Which is what I said, so lets concentrate on better quality, and not on more channels. No; more multiplexes = more capacity = less pressure on bit rates. -- Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices: http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm |
Aha - Ta muchly.
Ben ~~~ dylan wrote: It's the number of carriers in the COFDM signals take a look at http://www.gigawave.co.uk/cofdm.html |
In message , Ad
writes Ivan wrote: Being in the TV trade at the time, I can well remember the moans and groans from people who had perfectly working VHF 405 TV's so didn't see any reason to pay for a new UHF aerial and TV receiver, which in real terms cost them a helluva lot more than a present-day 'possible' replacement for a five-year-old digi box. Remember it was to appease a few thousand pre-war viewer's with obsolete TV sets (which had been in storage for years, and would therefore have possibly blown up when reconnected) that we were lumbered with the 405 system for donkey's years after the rest of Europe and other parts of world had opted for 625 lines. I think that even you must agree that there are times when we have to move on, otherwise we would all still be stuck in the 1960s! but changing from 405 to 625, was an improvement, changing from analogue to digital is not. Something is wrong with your equipment or setup, or both. -- Ian. |
Ivan wrote:
: it would appear that shortly : after the initial introduction of On-digital in the late Nineties, 8K : chipsets became readily available and were fitted as standard in later : receivers. Being fitted with an '8K capable' chipset is no guarantee that the box will work at 8K. I'm willing to bet there is some software involvement in sensing the mode, changing parameters etc. and unless all that is done properly 8K most probably won't work. Indeed I seem to remember that, on at least one box, whether or not it worked at 8K depended on the firmware version. Richard. http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/ To reply by email change 'news' to my forename. |
"steve" wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:46:34 +0000, Kev wrote: Ad said the following on 2005-03-30 18:40: IMHO ITV PLC should be responsable for replacing all 2K (on digital/itv digital branded) only boxes still in use when the first analogue station is turned off. Why? They gave then away free FFS. They cost £400 initally. |
"news" wrote in message
... In message , Ad writes Ivan wrote: Being in the TV trade at the time, I can well remember the moans and but changing from 405 to 625, was an improvement, There was also the introduction of colour which was only ever avaliable with 625 lines changing from analogue to digital is not. Something is wrong with your equipment or setup, or both. If you get a better (clearer) picture with digital then likely the analogue picture is not that good quite possibly because of poor reception which you may be able to nothing about (easily). The more I use satellite the more I think that it is the sensible solution. If terrestrial analogue TV did not exist I do wonder if anyone would have bothered with DTT. Just a pity ITV, CH4 and 5 are still encrypted. -- Michael Chare |
wrote:
Ivan wrote: it would appear that shortly after the initial introduction of On-digital in the late Nineties, 8K chipsets became readily available and were fitted as standard in later receivers. Being fitted with an '8K capable' chipset is no guarantee that the box will work at 8K. It should be. I'm willing to bet there is some software involvement in sensing the mode, Whether a transmission is 2K or 8K is signalled in the transmission parameter signalling (TPS) bits, so the sensing of the mode is simple. changing parameters etc. and unless all that is done properly 8K most probably won't work. Indeed I seem to remember that, on at least one box, whether or not it worked at 8K depended on the firmware version. Any chipset that advertises itself as being 8K-capable must be able to receive 8K or it's false advertising. That's not been an issue in the UK up to now because there are no 8K transmissions. If 8K is on the cards then Ofcom, the Digital TV Group and the BBC need to provide a list of DTT boxes that cannot receive 8K. IMO, 8K provides such major advantages that it would be wrong to pass up the opportunity of using just because a very small percentage of old (and slow) boxes cannot decode it. -- Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices: http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm |
Dave Fawthrop said the following on 2005-03-30 19:12:
Does anyone have a list of boxes which *are* or *are not* 8k compatible? or a way of testing boxes? Take it to the Netherlands and see if you can decode Ned 2... As plenty of Setpals and Goodmans sets in the East of England regually pick up and decode that they should all be fine. Kev |
Ad said the following on 2005-03-30 22:52:
Look at it this way, have had analogue T.v for years, the only major change was from VHF to UHF, then we went for years with the same system, ok, so we had a couple more channels, but my old 25 years old Fergi that I got up here will still work with the analogue system, I got a 30 years old Black and white portable, that will also work with the analogue system. Now if Ofcom is going to change the system every 5 to 10 years, do you not think people will get a bit ****ed off? If the original boxes had been fully compatible with the specs then we would be okay. It would be like making FM tuners in the 1980s that only work from 88-98 FM because that was all that was in use at the time, even though knowing that 100-108FM were part of the standard and could have been used at any time. OFCOM isn't changing the goal posts, it's just changing the parameters in which they are working. If they were advocating the adoption of MPEG-4, or even MHP* then people would have understandable reasons for being angry - even if this is 20 to 30 years from now. It's not like many 2k boxes were brought, nearly all were rented from On Digitial and then gifted to the former subscribers by ITV PLC as a guester of goodwill. *By this i mean mandating of MHP over MHEG, both should be able to co-exist (like Mediaguard and MHEG did), and MHP could well be mandated on all products carrying the pink tick, or being sold as "interactive complient". Also allowing new entrant subscription services to utalise MPEG4 should also be allowed, provided all there STBs are backwards complient. |
Scott said the following on 2005-03-30 21:57:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:46:34 GMT, Kev wrote: Ad said the following on 2005-03-30 18:40: Ivan wrote: That would be suicide, if that happened, then people will just say sod digital and go back to analouge. I do not think it will happen, if it does, then how can we trsut Ofcom not to change the system when it likes? It's ITV Digitals fault. 8K transmission falls within the DVB-T standard, but On digital rushed to market with boxes that arn't fully complient with the specs. IMHO ITV PLC should be responsable for replacing all 2K (on digital/itv digital branded) only boxes still in use when the first analogue station is turned off. You seem to be forgetting that ONdigital was a subsidiary company that went into receivership which means that legally ITV plc have no liability for its obligations. ITV PLC own all the boxes though as they brought them from the administrators. I'm not saying they should be forced to, but as a final guester of goodwill (especially seeing as they are being allowed to drop all PSB programming from there licence, and will have reduced transmission costs) they should replace the small number of effected boxes. With the large number they would be buying (even if this was a couple of thousand) they should be able to necociate a good discount - or even a swap for a short advert during corrie. |
In article , Kev
wrote: It's not like many 2k boxes were brought, nearly all were rented from On Digitial and then gifted to the former subscribers by ITV PLC as a guester of goodwill. Phil: If they were the ORIGINAL boxes, then ALL were BOUGHT by the subscribers at 200ukp each with a subsidy of 200ukp (ie 400ukp = 200+200) - they were NOT loaned - despite Grandada's later 'generous gift' of giving us our own boxes. It was LATER distributions that were rented with a deposit and to which the 'gift; applied. (However, our Philips box, one of the originals, works on both systems as far as I am aware - because it still receives everything) So it may be very few, or some other make which is only 2k. (We were cetainly able to watch all the BBC tests prior to 'Freeview' launch) -- Phil Spiegelhalter: ==== Technical Training for Broadcasters ===== *RE CUE Mobile DV Multi-Camera Production and Non-Linear Editing* |
Phil said the following on 2005-03-31 17:21:
In article , Kev wrote: It's not like many 2k boxes were brought, nearly all were rented from On Digitial and then gifted to the former subscribers by ITV PLC as a guester of goodwill. Phil: If they were the ORIGINAL boxes, then ALL were BOUGHT by the subscribers at 200ukp each with a subsidy of 200ukp (ie 400ukp = 200+200) - they were NOT loaned - despite Grandada's later 'generous gift' of giving us our own boxes. It was LATER distributions that were rented with a deposit and to which the 'gift; applied. (However, our Philips box, one of the originals, works on both systems as far as I am aware - because it still receives everything) So it may be very few, or some other make which is only 2k. (We were cetainly able to watch all the BBC tests prior to 'Freeview' launch) Ahh, i wasn't aware of that! The few people in that situation should defianlty be given new boxes. |
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