Kev wrote:


If the original boxes had been fully compatible with the specs then we
would be okay.

The original boxes was only made for one thing and that was for
Ondigital. I presume that if Ondigital was still going and the system
was going to be changed, then Ondigital would have changed their boxes,
since they owned them in the first place.
Mind you I doubt as many people would have Digital now if Ondigital was
still going.


It would be like making FM tuners in the 1980s that only work from 88-98
FM because that was all that was in use at the time, even though knowing
that 100-108FM were part of the standard and could have been used at any
time.


I can see what you are getting at, but FM radio was not on a subscription.

OFCOM isn't changing the goal posts, it's just changing the parameters
in which they are working.

Which means people may have to buy new boxes.


If they were advocating the adoption of MPEG-4, or even MHP* then people
would have understandable reasons for being angry - even if this is 20
to 30 years from now.

a mate of mine thought we was already using MPEG-4, until I put him
right. then he turned around and said no wonder the quality is so crap.
He has Sky mind you not Freeview.



It's not like many 2k boxes were brought, nearly all were rented from On
Digitial and then gifted to the former subscribers by ITV PLC as a
guester of goodwill.

I agree, but also remember that a lot of people did buy their boxes as
well. My nephew got an ex-ondigital , no it is an ex-ITV digital as it
got the ITV digital sticker on :-).
Anyway, he did buy one of these boxes from Argos I think, it was not cheap.


*By this i mean mandating of MHP over MHEG, both should be able to
co-exist (like Mediaguard and MHEG did), and MHP could well be mandated
on all products carrying the pink tick, or being sold as "interactive
complient". Also allowing new entrant subscription services to utalise
MPEG4 should also be allowed, provided all there STBs are backwards
complient.


subscription should not be allowed on terrestrial.

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:34:43 +0100, Mike Henry
wrote:

In , Scott
wrote:

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:59:07 GMT, Kev wrote:

ITV PLC own all the boxes though as they brought them from the
administrators.

Do they? I understood they gave them to the users for time being.

I don't recall any "for the time being" bit. ITV bought them from the
administrators, and then gave them to the users to keep for ever and
ever amen!

Sorry, badly worded. I meant to say the users at the time - to
distinguish from customers (which they were not) or former customers
(who might have given the box away). AIUI Carlton/Granada gave the
boxes to whoever happened to have them on the day.

Scott

Scott wrote:


So these people can forget about paying their license for 12 months, so
they can get a couple of boxes. I do not think the BBc will take that
excuse somehow.

Only a years T.V license, that is in total over £200, that is a lot of
money for asome people.


£126.50 to be more accurate
http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/index.jsp

Over £200, as you still have to buy the boxes and the license.

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:29:15 +0100, steve
wrote:

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:59:07 +0000, Kev wrote:

Scott said the following on 2005-03-30 21:57:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:46:34 GMT, Kev wrote:


Ad said the following on 2005-03-30 18:40:

Ivan wrote:
That would be suicide, if that happened, then people will just say sod
digital and go back to analouge.
I do not think it will happen, if it does, then how can we trsut Ofcom
not to change the system when it likes?

It's ITV Digitals fault. 8K transmission falls within the DVB-T
standard, but On digital rushed to market with boxes that arn't fully
complient with the specs.

IMHO ITV PLC should be responsable for replacing all 2K (on digital/itv
digital branded) only boxes still in use when the first analogue station
is turned off.

You seem to be forgetting that ONdigital was a subsidiary company that
went into receivership which means that legally ITV plc have no
liability for its obligations.

ITV PLC own all the boxes though as they brought them from the
administrators.

I'm not saying they should be forced to, but as a final guester of
goodwill

The final gesture of goodwill was buying all the boxes and giving thme to
their keepers. What more do you want? You are talking of 10 year old end
of life kit the people have had for free.

I would certainly be unhappy if I gave my car away and someone came
back years later wanting me to buy them a new one because it no longer
complied with the latest standards.

Scott

Mike Henry wrote:


Not at all, the effect of increasing the number of COFDM subcarriers is
well known.


Quite. The BBC and DTG tests were most informative.


They have never tried it in this country, so how do they know?


Perhaps you missed all of my posts yesterday in this very thread? Once
again may I mention the research done by the BBC:
"Performance of DTT receivers following a mode change" BBC white paper:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/whp/whp029.shtml

And the DTG:
"REPORT OF DTT (DVB-T) TRANSMISSION MODE TRIALS" DTG tests:
http://www.dtg.org.uk/publications/b...ial_report.pdf


I must have missed it somehow, I will have a look at this.

Mike Henry wrote:

(NB: all 9 of the DTT STBs that the BBC tested for their 2002 white
paper failed in 8k mode.)


That BBC paper was published prior to Freeview launching in
~September/October 2002.

ITV Digital failed in early 2002, IIRC. 8K chips were definitely
available by May 1999, because the Nokia 9820T receiver could receive
both 2K and 8K according to this:

http://press.nokia.com/PR/199905/776853_5.html

The BBC paper doesn't say which receivers were tested and failed to
receive 8K transmissions. The 8K test was also a mode *change* rather
than receiving 8K from the start, and the paper also says that some of
the manufacturers could upgrade the receivers to receive 8K using an
over-the-air download.

The proposed change to 8K will presumably be undertaken when digital
switchover is being phased in, so it's at least 3 years away, and if you
live in the SE then it's 7 years away. Any set-top box that cannot
receive 8K is going to be old and slow, and a reasonable proportion
would actually have failed by the time that a mode change comes along
and a further proportion would have been thrown away due to replacing
them with newer, faster receivers. Also, people that subscribed to
On/ITV Digital were relatively early adopters, so a fair proportion of
them will want HDTV, and they *will* need a new set-top box if they want
to receive HDTV.

Also, by the time of this mode change then new set-top boxes are likely
to be around £20 - £25 if not less. Is it really that big a deal that
people should be asked to pay an extra £20 - £25 when you consider that
the DTT network is vastly improved?

A change to using 8K should allow a vast increase in the overall DTT
capacity because it allows SFNs (assuming that the current 2K planning
hasn't screwed up the whole situation forever more....), and to forego
that for the sake of a tiny percentage of the population that have
2K-only receivers would be an utter joke.


--
Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info

Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices:
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm

Dave Farrance wrote:
Mike Henry wrote:

Perhaps you missed all of my posts yesterday in this very thread?
Once again may I mention the research done by the BBC:
"Performance of DTT receivers following a mode change" BBC white
paper: http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/whp/whp029.shtml

And the DTG:
"REPORT OF DTT (DVB-T) TRANSMISSION MODE TRIALS" DTG tests:
http://www.dtg.org.uk/publications/b...ial_report.pdf

8k sub-carriers and single-frequency-networks do seem attractive for a
number of reasons, such as the ease of planning of the frequency
allocations, and efficient use of the spectrum. So it'd be good to
make the change if it's possible.

However, Those references are a bit disconcerting.

"It is known from previous tests carried out by the BBC and others
that very few existing set top boxes or IDTVs work with the 8K mode.
It is however understood that many of the more recent set top boxes
could be made to work on 8K with a software upgrade. Manufacturers
are also addressing the world market for 8K receivers."

That's not good for May 1992.


2002. :)


Even worse, look at page 105 of the second one, and how intolerant the
tested receivers were of anything other than a 1/32 guard interval as
late as May 2002. Four of the eight STBs failed, and three of the four
IDTVs failed. A larger guard interval would be needed for SFNs, and a
guard interval change is less fundamental than a change to 8k, so
it's a fair bet that those receivers wouldn't have been able to
handle 8k either.


The test results you're referring to are poor, but they were OnDigital
and ITV Digital receivers (May 2002 was before Freeview launched in
Sept/Oct 2002). Germany uses 8K with a guard-interval of 1/4, and I'd
expect that the vast majority, if not all, DVB-T receivers sold since
the start of Freeview will be able to receive 8K.


Three out of the four IDTVs being so intolerant does make me think
about the much longer development cycle of IDTVs.


This is a perfect example against the consumer electronics industry's
view that we should all go out and buy IDTVs because it's far better to
separate expensive TV sets from the cheap receivers that can be replaced
far more easily.



--
Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info

Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices:
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm

Mike Henry wrote:

However, Those references are a bit disconcerting.
[...]
Even worse, look at page 105 of the second one,

I'm having trouble finding it as it's only 72 pages :-).


He's referring to:

http://www.dtg.org.uk/publications/b...ial_report.pdf

which is 113 pages long.



--
Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info

Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices:
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm

Ben wrote:
Ivan wrote:

That would be suicide, if that happened, then people will just say sod
digital and go back to analouge.


iirc, the ofcom consultation document was asking whether they should
switch to 8k as soon as analogue is switched off, so there won't be any
analogue to go back to.


Which means that some poor sods will find out on the day of switch off
that they can not get any T.V


One of the main criticisms of the current DTT arrangement is that it
doesn't work well with portable TVs and set-top aerials. 8k should help
quite a bit with this, so I can see it being a real success.

The problem here is this is just guess work, no one knows if this 8K
will make a difference.

Ben wrote:

The system needs to change in several ways. For example, MPEG2 is
outdated now, more efficient compression schemes such as H264 could be

This is the problem, things changes too much.


used. The key is to have receivers/decoders that are either software
upgradeable or cheap enough to be effectively disposable. The

Oh yea and I sure people will love to keep changing eveery 5-10 years.


receiver/decoder should not be integrated into the display. Display
devices are expensive items that people will not want to be forced to
replace every 10 years (although most people do replace their TV every
10 years anyway, but being made to do it is a different matter entirely).

Most people changes their T.V when it goes wrong, you do get some who
must have the latest model. Also is it not better to have it all in one?
Ones remote, no cables, nice and easy to use.

My sitting room looks like a telephone exchange from the 60's with the
amount of cable.



What about people who spent a fair bit of money on Integrated digital
T.vs, how are they going to feel when they find out that they will not
be able to use it? About time this country made a standard and stayed
with it.


They can use it - they can get a cheap set top box like everyone else.


Fantastic. they paid over the odds for their T.v and will have to use
another box.
Ok, the chances are that most of these T.Vs will not be working, by the
time analuge switch off happens. But if the government follows ofcom, it
will only be 3 years until the first signal is switched.


Having more COFDM sub-carriers will make not the slightest difference to
picture quality, what it does is improve reliability in the presence of

so we are back to square one.

impulse interference. The robustness of the signal (influenced by
choices such as 2k/8k and 64QAM/16QAM) is an entirely separate thing
from the quality of the picture, which is largely determined by bitrate
and the quality of the source material.



Which is what I said, so lets concentrate on better quality, and not on
more channels.