In message , Ad
writes
Ivan wrote:

Being in the TV trade at the time, I can well remember the moans and
groans
from people who had perfectly working VHF 405 TV's so didn't see any reason
to pay for a new UHF aerial and TV receiver, which in real terms cost them a
helluva lot more than a present-day 'possible' replacement for a
five-year-old digi box.
Remember it was to appease a few thousand pre-war viewer's with
obsolete TV
sets (which had been in storage for years, and would therefore have possibly
blown up when reconnected) that we were lumbered with the 405 system for
donkey's years after the rest of Europe and other parts of world had opted
for 625 lines.
I think that even you must agree that there are times when we have
to move
on, otherwise we would all still be stuck in the 1960s!

but changing from 405 to 625, was an improvement, changing from
analogue to digital is not.

Something is wrong with your equipment or setup, or both.
--
Ian.

Ivan wrote:
: it would appear that shortly
: after the initial introduction of On-digital in the late Nineties, 8K
: chipsets became readily available and were fitted as standard in later
: receivers.

Being fitted with an '8K capable' chipset is no guarantee that
the box will work at 8K. I'm willing to bet there is some
software involvement in sensing the mode, changing parameters
etc. and unless all that is done properly 8K most probably
won't work. Indeed I seem to remember that, on at least one
box, whether or not it worked at 8K depended on the firmware
version.

Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/
To reply by email change 'news' to my forename.

"steve" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:46:34 +0000, Kev wrote:

Ad said the following on 2005-03-30 18:40:
IMHO ITV PLC should be responsable for replacing all 2K (on digital/itv
digital branded) only boxes still in use when the first analogue station
is turned off.

Why? They gave then away free FFS.

They cost £400 initally.

"news" wrote in message
...
In message , Ad
writes
Ivan wrote:

Being in the TV trade at the time, I can well remember the moans and

but changing from 405 to 625, was an improvement,

There was also the introduction of colour which was only ever avaliable with 625
lines

changing from
analogue to digital is not.


Something is wrong with your equipment or setup, or both.

If you get a better (clearer) picture with digital then likely the analogue
picture is not that good quite possibly because of poor reception which you may
be able to nothing about (easily).

The more I use satellite the more I think that it is the sensible solution. If
terrestrial analogue TV did not exist I do wonder if anyone would have bothered
with DTT. Just a pity ITV, CH4 and 5 are still encrypted.

--

Michael Chare

wrote:
Ivan wrote:
it would appear that shortly
after the initial introduction of On-digital in the late Nineties, 8K
chipsets became readily available and were fitted as standard in
later receivers.

Being fitted with an '8K capable' chipset is no guarantee that
the box will work at 8K.


It should be.


I'm willing to bet there is some
software involvement in sensing the mode,


Whether a transmission is 2K or 8K is signalled in the transmission
parameter signalling (TPS) bits, so the sensing of the mode is simple.


changing parameters
etc. and unless all that is done properly 8K most probably
won't work. Indeed I seem to remember that, on at least one
box, whether or not it worked at 8K depended on the firmware
version.


Any chipset that advertises itself as being 8K-capable must be able to
receive 8K or it's false advertising. That's not been an issue in the UK
up to now because there are no 8K transmissions.

If 8K is on the cards then Ofcom, the Digital TV Group and the BBC need
to provide a list of DTT boxes that cannot receive 8K.

IMO, 8K provides such major advantages that it would be wrong to pass up
the opportunity of using just because a very small percentage of old
(and slow) boxes cannot decode it.



--
Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info

Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices:
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm

Dave Fawthrop said the following on 2005-03-30 19:12:
Does anyone have a list of boxes which *are* or *are not* 8k compatible?
or a way of testing boxes?
Take it to the Netherlands and see if you can decode Ned 2...

As plenty of Setpals and Goodmans sets in the East of England regually
pick up and decode that they should all be fine.

Kev

Ad said the following on 2005-03-30 22:52:
Look at it this way, have had analogue T.v for years, the only major
change was from VHF to UHF, then we went for years with the same system,
ok, so we had a couple more channels, but my old 25 years old Fergi that
I got up here will still work with the analogue system, I got a 30 years
old Black and white portable, that will also work with the analogue system.

Now if Ofcom is going to change the system every 5 to 10 years, do you
not think people will get a bit ****ed off?

If the original boxes had been fully compatible with the specs then we
would be okay.

It would be like making FM tuners in the 1980s that only work from 88-98
FM because that was all that was in use at the time, even though knowing
that 100-108FM were part of the standard and could have been used at any
time.

OFCOM isn't changing the goal posts, it's just changing the parameters
in which they are working.

If they were advocating the adoption of MPEG-4, or even MHP* then people
would have understandable reasons for being angry - even if this is 20
to 30 years from now.

It's not like many 2k boxes were brought, nearly all were rented from On
Digitial and then gifted to the former subscribers by ITV PLC as a
guester of goodwill.

*By this i mean mandating of MHP over MHEG, both should be able to
co-exist (like Mediaguard and MHEG did), and MHP could well be mandated
on all products carrying the pink tick, or being sold as "interactive
complient". Also allowing new entrant subscription services to utalise
MPEG4 should also be allowed, provided all there STBs are backwards
complient.

Scott said the following on 2005-03-30 21:57:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:46:34 GMT, Kev wrote:


Ad said the following on 2005-03-30 18:40:

Ivan wrote:
That would be suicide, if that happened, then people will just say sod
digital and go back to analouge.
I do not think it will happen, if it does, then how can we trsut Ofcom
not to change the system when it likes?

It's ITV Digitals fault. 8K transmission falls within the DVB-T
standard, but On digital rushed to market with boxes that arn't fully
complient with the specs.

IMHO ITV PLC should be responsable for replacing all 2K (on digital/itv
digital branded) only boxes still in use when the first analogue station
is turned off.

You seem to be forgetting that ONdigital was a subsidiary company that
went into receivership which means that legally ITV plc have no
liability for its obligations.

ITV PLC own all the boxes though as they brought them from the
administrators.

I'm not saying they should be forced to, but as a final guester of
goodwill (especially seeing as they are being allowed to drop all PSB
programming from there licence, and will have reduced transmission
costs) they should replace the small number of effected boxes. With the
large number they would be buying (even if this was a couple of
thousand) they should be able to necociate a good discount - or even a
swap for a short advert during corrie.

In article , Kev
wrote:


It's not like many 2k boxes were brought, nearly all were rented from On
Digitial and then gifted to the former subscribers by ITV PLC as a
guester of goodwill.

Phil: If they were the ORIGINAL boxes, then ALL were BOUGHT by the
subscribers at 200ukp each with a subsidy of 200ukp (ie 400ukp = 200+200)
- they were NOT loaned - despite Grandada's later 'generous gift' of
giving us our own boxes. It was LATER distributions that were rented with
a deposit and to which the 'gift; applied. (However, our Philips box, one
of the originals, works on both systems as far as I am aware - because it
still receives everything)

So it may be very few, or some other make which is only 2k. (We were
cetainly able to watch all the BBC tests prior to 'Freeview' launch)

--
Phil Spiegelhalter:
==== Technical Training for Broadcasters =====
*RE CUE Mobile DV Multi-Camera Production and Non-Linear Editing*

Phil said the following on 2005-03-31 17:21:
In article , Kev
wrote:
It's not like many 2k boxes were brought, nearly all were rented from On
Digitial and then gifted to the former subscribers by ITV PLC as a
guester of goodwill.


Phil: If they were the ORIGINAL boxes, then ALL were BOUGHT by the
subscribers at 200ukp each with a subsidy of 200ukp (ie 400ukp = 200+200)
- they were NOT loaned - despite Grandada's later 'generous gift' of
giving us our own boxes. It was LATER distributions that were rented with
a deposit and to which the 'gift; applied. (However, our Philips box, one
of the originals, works on both systems as far as I am aware - because it
still receives everything)

So it may be very few, or some other make which is only 2k. (We were
cetainly able to watch all the BBC tests prior to 'Freeview' launch)


Ahh, i wasn't aware of that!

The few people in that situation should defianlty be given new boxes.