On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:58:59 -0000, Owain
wrote:

But we are not talking about a relay transmitter. It's quite normal (cue
Bill) to use filters to block 'broadcast' signals at the input of a
distrbution system to release channels for use with in-house modulated
channels. Provided the screening etc is all right.

Yes, I agree that if this was a fully screened, carefully wired and
professionally installed system rather than a stand-alone box, then the
principle is sound, But how much is it going to cost? The OP said "Oh,
this box could be installed for free"

And think of the disputes that would occur in multiple-occupancy buildings
when two or more such systems are installed and the output of one
inevitably leaks into the input of another.


However I don't see why filters are needed anyway. (a) If the device is
to be used *only* with analogue tellies downstream, it doesn't need
analogue
pass-through. (b) The analogue outputs don't have to be on the same
channels as the analogue broadcast channels currently use, and the muxes
will in
future use. They can be shifted to any free channels and the tellies
re-tuned.

But the OP wanted it "at the same frequencies the existing analogue
channels were" so he could "carry on using their equipment as before not
noticing any change."


Such a device, however, would not only have to cope with the ordinary
picture, it would have to decode digital subtitles and re-encode as
teletext subtitles. Most multi-telly households will use digital
already, it will be the elderly with their wood-grain sets who will be
unwilling to move to
digital, and they will demand subtitles. Distribution systems in old
peoples' homes could be a market, and will have to provide access to
subtitles under disability discrimination law. Therefore whilst there
will be a demand for multi-channel decoders it will not be at the
consumer end of the market.


Agreed. The system is just not practical.

Arthur

"Ian Middleton" wrote in message
...
What we need to ease pain of analogue switch off is a box that takes DTT
signal in and produces 5 RF channels out at the same frequencies the
existing analogue channels were. This would be placed in the loft (or
where ever) to provide analogue channels rest of equipment.

That way all these people that have 10 TV's and 8 VCR's etc in their homes
and have no intention of switching to digital will be all happy. They
install box and carry on using their equipment as before not noticing any
change.

Oh, this box could be installed for free by those wanting all the DTT
frequency space or if it costs cost less than just using 5 DTT boxes.
This only came about because I mentioned about analogue switch off at work
and quite a few people piped up about having to buy settop boxes for all the
TV's in their house and how would they continue using their VCRs. Its seems
that quite a few people have say 3 or more TV's in their house, main
bedroom, kids rooms, kitchen etc as well as making daily use of VCR to
record the "other side" (ie put tape in, select 3 on display [ITV] and press
record) whilst they watch something else. The VCR users seemed terribly
confused about why they needed two more boxes just to receive something they
get already and then making it much harder record the "other side".

A simple distribution box producing channels 1-5 on exactly the same
frequencies as they already received 1-5 would solve the problem, no
retuning of sets, VCR would operate as expectected with ITV being on 3 etc.

Andrew [email protected] wrote:
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 23:27:24 +0000, Ed wrote:

Technically a box that would turn the signal into five separate
analogue signals is a box with five tuners in, and therefore would
cost around the same cost as five boxes, which would give you all the
benefits of digital.

The benefit of digital is having more channels. Your "solution" is the
worst of both worlds.

For many people this equates to "Digital is of no benefit, and stopped
my TV working."

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:58:59 -0000, "Owain"
wrote:

"Arthur" wrote
| Lurch wrote:
| Since it is planned to switch off analogue services and replace
| them with digital multiplexes ON THE SAME CHANNELS, I
| fail to see how this will work.
| Filters.
| 1. Read the words in upper case
| 2. Think again
| How are you at designing filters? ;-)
| Very good actually, I'm been doing it for years.
| But I can't design a filter that will allow a relay to transmit an
| analogue signal on the same frequency that it is receiving a digital one.
| Can you?

But we are not talking about a relay transmitter. It's quite normal (cue
Bill) to use filters to block 'broadcast' signals at the input of a
distrbution system to release channels for use with in-house modulated
channels. Provided the screening etc is all right.

However I don't see why filters are needed anyway. (a) If the device is to
be used *only* with analogue tellies downstream, it doesn't need analogue
pass-through. (b) The analogue outputs don't have to be on the same channels
as the analogue broadcast channels currently use, and the muxes will in
future use. They can be shifted to any free channels and the tellies
re-tuned.

Such a device, however, would not only have to cope with the ordinary
picture, it would have to decode digital subtitles and re-encode as teletext
subtitles. Most multi-telly households will use digital already, it will be
the elderly with their wood-grain sets who will be unwilling to move to
digital, and they will demand subtitles. Distribution systems in old
peoples' homes could be a market, and will have to provide access to
subtitles under disability discrimination law. Therefore whilst there will
be a demand for multi-channel decoders it will not be at the consumer end of
the market.

Owain


In a 'large distrubution' type of situation, I suppose you could have,
say, five freeview boxes all connected to one aerial, each one is
tuned to BBC 1 & 2, ITV 1, CH4 & Five respectively, then each RF
output can be tuned to different frequencies & combined into one
downlead then into a distribution amp & split to all the telly's
required. Just a thought :-)

Marky P.

Marky P said the following on 2005-02-10 21:36:

Such a device, however, would not only have to cope with the ordinary
picture, it would have to decode digital subtitles and re-encode as teletext
subtitles. Most multi-telly households will use digital already, it will be
the elderly with their wood-grain sets who will be unwilling to move to
digital, and they will demand subtitles. Distribution systems in old
peoples' homes could be a market, and will have to provide access to
subtitles under disability discrimination law. Therefore whilst there will
be a demand for multi-channel decoders it will not be at the consumer end of
the market.

Owain



In a 'large distrubution' type of situation, I suppose you could have,
say, five freeview boxes all connected to one aerial, each one is
tuned to BBC 1 & 2, ITV 1, CH4 & Five respectively, then each RF
output can be tuned to different frequencies & combined into one
downlead then into a distribution amp & split to all the telly's
required. Just a thought :-)

Marky P.

And in a really large system you could have 10 boxes - 5 with the
subtitles permantly turned on.

Should be fun for the installer to try to leave 6 digital multiplexes
going down the wire, 10 "analalogue" stations, avoiding the existing
analogue stations in the area (assuming it was installed before the
analogue signal was turned off) and leaving spaces for the VCR's and in
room digiboxes to be modulated on RF as well. (and in a less than
perfect install having to avoid 10-15 channels)

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:02:43 +0000, Ian Middleton wrote:

"Ian Middleton" wrote in message
...
What we need to ease pain of analogue switch off is a box that takes DTT
signal in and produces 5 RF channels out at the same frequencies the
existing analogue channels were. This would be placed in the loft (or
where ever) to provide analogue channels rest of equipment.

That way all these people that have 10 TV's and 8 VCR's etc in their homes
and have no intention of switching to digital will be all happy. They
install box and carry on using their equipment as before not noticing any
change.

Oh, this box could be installed for free by those wanting all the DTT
frequency space or if it costs cost less than just using 5 DTT boxes.
This only came about because I mentioned about analogue switch off at work
and quite a few people piped up about having to buy settop boxes for all the
TV's in their house and how would they continue using their VCRs. Its seems
that quite a few people have say 3 or more TV's in their house, main
bedroom, kids rooms, kitchen etc as well as making daily use of VCR to
record the "other side" (ie put tape in, select 3 on display [ITV] and press
record) whilst they watch something else. The VCR users seemed terribly
confused about why they needed two more boxes just to receive something they
get already and then making it much harder record the "other side".

A simple distribution box producing channels 1-5 on exactly the same
frequencies as they already received 1-5 would solve the problem, no
retuning of sets, VCR would operate as expectected with ITV being on 3 etc.

Sure but what purpose would a box serve today? Additionally it would be
more expensive to spec unless/until a super-mux is started as it would
need multiple RF stages.

I also think not doing something because it would require a retune holds
everything back.

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 22:04:44 +0000, {{{{{Welcome}}}}} wrote:

[SNIP]


And having to go up into the loft every so often resetting the system, because
it locked up.

This beats me. Have the manufactures of set top boxes never heard of a
hardware watchdog timer?

Basically you have a little bit of external dedicated hardware, that you
have to reset via software at a given interval, or it presses the reset
button automatically for you. They cost pennies to implement.

JAB.

--
Jonathan A. Buzzard Email: jonathan (at) buzzard.me.uk
Northumberland, United Kingdom. Tel: +44 1661-832195

Jonathan Buzzard said the following on 2005-02-13 12:33:
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 22:04:44 +0000, {{{{{Welcome}}}}} wrote:
And having to go up into the loft every so often resetting the system, because
it locked up.


This beats me. Have the manufactures of set top boxes never heard of a
hardware watchdog timer?

Basically you have a little bit of external dedicated hardware, that you
have to reset via software at a given interval, or it presses the reset
button automatically for you. They cost pennies to implement.

My Daewoo Setpal does exactly that - when it locks up it will have reset
itself (power down, restart on last station you viewed before last
puttin successfully in standby) within 5 minutes.


I wish my Pace Twin would do that (even better if it didn't loose what
it was recording when the power was pulled)

"Ed" wrote in message
...

Personally I think the government is trying to push it through too
fast, 2008 for the first switch off is too soon. The other issue that
could push all this back is economics, if the pound remains as strong
compared with China then cheap Chinese components and boxes will make
switchover less painful. If that situation changes though, it could
all become a lot more expensive and painful.


You are right ... if the situation changes then it will cost everyone more..

Surely that is the plan ... indecision and confusion at all levels from the
Government on down .. means that the situation will be in constant flux for
many many years and this will keep lots of people employed in the technology
side of this fiasco .. and divert attention from the actual material being
broadcast .. which seems to be mostly either old - pre 1990 - or rubbish ...
with very few notable exceptions.

Personally I am ready now..

It hasn't cost much....

A set top box

A new aerial and amplifier

A SKY dish ( when it was obvious that Freeview was not coming to this
area for years)

A SKY diigibox


All I need now is something I actually want to watch.


Roll on - Pay as You go TV



Would I pay to watch a cricket match ... I think not ... rather go down the
pub and watch the local team on the green

Would I pay to watch a football match ... possibly .... but not often

Would I pay to watch the post match round-up .... I think not

Would I pay to watch adverts ... NO

Would I pay to watch a film ... depends ... it may be more convenient /
cheaper to get it on DVD from the local Blockbusters..



And what would happen to those who spend their lives channel hopping .. if
you had to pay for each program... perhaps you could get programs charged by
the second ...


John

"John Beeston" wrote in message
...

"Ed" wrote in message
...

Personally I think the government is trying to push it through too
fast, 2008 for the first switch off is too soon. The other issue that
could push all this back is economics, if the pound remains as strong
compared with China then cheap Chinese components and boxes will make
switchover less painful. If that situation changes though, it could
all become a lot more expensive and painful.

But any changes in underlying costs might be offset by the greater volumes
of sales due to forced conversion.


--
MESSAGE ENDS.
John Porcella