Why do you seem to get a
kick out of being disgraced?

Dave, that's probably the most amazing thing about BOB. He's caught lying day
after day after day. He's called on it each and every time. Yet he comes back
for more. They say that only humans have the capacity for
embarrasment......hmm, I wonder what that says about BOB?

"Mark Crispin" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 3 Feb 2005, Mudd Bug wrote:
I guess me and the only other two people I know who have tried OTA are
just unlucky, 100% are in your 25%. With your success rate at least one
would be working just fine, but that is just not the case.

A sample space of two is not statistically significant.
It's three, and it is significant when its me and 100% of all
others I know of first hand.

Recall the gambler's fallacy. If you flip a fair coin twice and it comes
up heads both times, that doesn't mean that it is more likely that it will
come up tails the next time.
Buying a STB is a gamble, and it came up tails for me.

If you can not understand this, then I strongly advise you not to go to a
casino, as people who do not understand statistics are their lawful prey.


You don't seem to understand that a significant number of installs do not
work,
25% is a large percent.

Like I posted some months ago, A salesman at a high end store said that
about half of their installs cannot receive OTA, and he look puzzled as
to why.

Anecdotal evidence is worthless without additional information, especially
when you are reporting the statement of a third party that the figure is
"about" such-and-such.

The comment was unsolicited from a salesman, the topic of OTA was just
started.
These were the installs the store was doing, if a professional has problems
what
chance does the general public have? This should be plug and play with an
indoor
antenna if you are in the broadcast area. Maybe a larger outdoor antenna if
you
are trying to receive an out of market station.

In order to be useful, we need a statistically significant sample size of
*all* the shops installs, and reports of success and failure from *each*
of these. Note the emphasized words; anything less than all of the
installs biases the data. Shops get more feedback from unhappy customers
than from happy customers. Consequently, data based upon customer
feedback is biased.

Next, even if the 50% figure is accurate, the report omits such critical
information as location. For example, a shop selling HDTV systems in
Anchorage probably will have such a low rate; there isn't much HDTV in
Anchorage, and the mountains and forests which surround Anchorage greatly
impact TV receiption outside of the urban center.

If you fail to consider all such factors, you're doing the same thing that
Psycho Bob Miller the pathological liar does when he acts like New York
City and its conditions are the thing that counts for the entire country.

I look at my results and wonder who the liars are. I am less than 12 miles
from the towers, I should have no problems, none at all. But that is not the
case.

I know little about 8-VSB or any other protocol, I just want it to work and
it does
not for me therefore it is a 100% failure for me. I hold out hope that it
gets fixed,
and soon.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Bob Miller ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
Sinclair was only asking for COFDM to be allowed so
that it could be used in cities like New York and Baltimore where 8-VSB
did not and still does not work.

ROFLMAO

Baltimore digital TV works just fine...except for the two Sinclair stations
that were dragging their feet for the longest time. They finally got network
passthrough working, so Baltimore can get Fox and WB in HD. And, only
those with ATSC receivers can do so, because Sinclair refuses to allow the
local Comcast to carry their digital channels.

I'm a good 50 miles away from the Baltimore towers and can receive all
the signals just fine, now that the CBS station has finished work on their
full-power transmitter.

--
Jeff Rife |
| http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/ArloNJanis/manure.gif

Tim Keating wrote:

Bob Miller wrote:
As the europeans are finding out the hard way, all the lab testingin the world doesn't equal squat in the real world. China claims to
be deploying a hybrid DMB-T using 8Mhz channel bandwidth.

The only place that the supposed and past tense 2 to 4 db of advantage 8-VSB had over COFDM was in LAB TEST. In the real world country after


1.) COFDM's S/N floor varies based on bit rate and bandwidth.


country that picked COFDM could not find this difference. I agree with you "all the lab testing in the world doesn't equal squat in the real
world". And now that lab testing that doesn't mean "squat" says that


Obviously , since they did not factor in the REAL WORLD impulse
noise into the equation.

Did you get the test results already? I am still waiting. I think they
are pretty good engineers and factored in all the relevant info.


COFDM has the advantage by 2.5 db anyway.


ATSC HDTV broadcasts using COFDM will always will be at a 5dB S/N
Disadvantage when compared with 8VSB in the US (6Mhz) markets.

Can you elaborate? Any data? Test results again. Until you can provide
any I will stick to the latest Chinese test results that show a 2.5 db
advantage for COFDM.

2.) And that's not counting the extra 10 to 15dB S/N ratio COFDM needs to overcome local impulse noise sources and deliver reliable
residential service.

Didn't seem to need this in New York. Berlin has a 99% indoor reception
rate with COFDM and the simplest antennas while in New York 8-VSB has
maybe 25%. COFDM worked, 8-VSB doesn't. In fact at the hearings in 2000
COFDM was operating in a 6 MHz channel at 19.76 Mbps mobile in the
hearing room. 8-VSB had to have a special antenna, Silver Sensor,
mounted in a fixed and very precious position behind the curtains.


The hard way? Selling all the receivers they can make? Pace pulled out of the market in the UK because there are so many players profit margins
have shrunk. 25% of purchases of OTA COFDM receivers are people buying second, third and fourth receivers as gifts or for other TV sets.

The test that China did were as near to 19.3 Mbps as possible for HD which is what a US 6 MHz channel can handle.


Comparing a 8Mhz COFDM channel with data rate supplied by a 6Mhz 8VSB channel. That's an (item #1) Apples and Oranges comparison Bob.

No both COFDM and 8-VSB were tried in the same channel at 19.3 mbps. I
don't know if that was 8 or 6. Will find out soon.


The US is limited to 6Mhz channel widths and has thousands ofpre-existing TV stations already on the air. (A Huge Difference).

China has thousand of pre-existing TV stations on the air, I don't get


So, a quick search of the FCC's TV database indicates that their are 21,426 TV stations listed.

There are less than 1700 full power NTSC stations and a similar number
of ATSC digital stations in the US. After the digital transition is over
the analog stations will not exist. There are 7500 low power (LPTV) and
translator stations combined in the US.

Translators just extends a full powered TV stations signal. LPTV
stations are limited in coverage and few actually offer significant
programming or are watched by many.

So there are less than 1700 full power TV stations at most in the US.
China has 3000 TV stations. Not a "HUGE" difference but a substantial one.


your point. 6 MHz is a non issue when considering what is that best modulation. 8-VSB does not offer some advantage in a 6 MHz channel that


A 6Mhz channel width has everything to do with and orderly (H)DTV transition in the US. Nearly every TV receiver ever sold in the US
and Canada uses 6Mhz channel widths. Even the US cable TV channels are in 6 Mhz increments.

Personally, I don't care what other countries use. And for the most part, they don't have ANY OTA (H)DTV broadcasts, because of
items #1 and #2.

Japan has a 6 MHz TV channel size and has COFDM HD OTA broadcast and has
been on the air for one year. In that year they have sold 2.161 million
OTA receivers of which 2.05 million were integrated DTV sets. How many
of anything OTA HD did we sell in the US over the last year??? Japan is
blowing away our OTA HD effort.
http://www.dibeg.org/news/news-3/news-e3.htm


COFDM does not.


8VSB in 8Mhz channel could go upwards of 30Mbits/sec without changing its S/N noise floor. Not so with COFDM, (see item #1).

As I have said in the real world COFDM can do a higher bit rate mobile
than 8-VSB can do to a fixed receiver. It was done before Congress in
2000. COFDM in a 6 MHz channel did 1080i HD with 19.76 Mbps and was able
to have its $2 antenna walked around the hearing room while 8-VSB had to
use a Silver Sensor in a fixed position to do 19.34 Mbps HD 1080i.


Lastly, you forgot to add in that COFDM needs an extra 10 to 15dB S/N to overcome local impulse noise sources. (Something one doesn't
find out until they do a wide scale consumer deployment, and the neighbors start using their newly purchased vacuum cleaners.)

That did happen in 1999 and 2000 with a bad design for the first 2K DVB-T receivers in the UK. Couldn't have been too bad since they sold a
lot of them and people still use them.


And is still happening today. It's the parallel nature of COFDM carriers that works against it. It
simultaneously xmits on hundreds
if not thousands of carriers at the same time.. An impulse noise event of sufficient duration corrupts them all simultaneously. No
way around that problem other than to xmit the same data patterns over and over again.

COFDM's problem with reoccuring impulse noise especially problematic, since it also corrupts subsequent retransmissions.


Later designs have eliminated impulse noise as a problem. I can get 8-VSB to blink by simply turning a


^^^^^^^ you don't own a (H)DTV.. therefore it's Unlikely that you have an ATSC 8-VSB receiver.

Amazing what you think you know. I have multiple 8-VSB receivers and do
own an HDTV.


fluorescent light on and off near a receiver. Something my COFDM receiver has no problem with.


Considering your COFDM receiver is probably right next to your transmitter you probably won't have a problem impulse noise. It's a
S/N ratio thing. Increase the distance between the two (dropping S/N ratio) and CODFM's problem with impulse noise grows exponentially.

The video speaks for itself. The transmitter is at Canal St. and 6th
Ave. while we drive around most of Manhattan. The transmitter is 100 Watts.

www.viacel.com/bob.wmv

Manhattan is one huge generator or impulse noise but we have no problem
as we drive around the city using single monopole omni antennas one of
which is only 3 inches high. 8-VSB can be defeated in a fixed location
with a dual bowtie facing the Empire State Building even with a 5th gen
LG receiver from that same Canal St. location. It can be defeated simply
by standing in a particular position relative to the antenna or by
walking in front of the antenna. Yet I applaud this 5th gen receiver
because it is so far superior to anything I have seen in 8-VSB.

8-VSB is simply a bad joke period.

Bob Miller


..Snip the rest of bob's rants..

Mark Crispin wrote:

On Thu, 3 Feb 2005, Mudd Bug wrote:

I guess me and the only other two people I know who have tried OTA are just unlucky, 100% are in your 25%. With your success rate at least
one would be working just fine, but that is just not the case.


A sample space of two is not statistically significant.

It sure isn't I agree but it doesn't stop poster after poster from
announcing that they can get good 8-VSB reception so 8-VSB is perfect
and you don't see Mark pointing that out, not once.

Recall the gambler's fallacy. If you flip a fair coin twice and it comes up heads both times, that doesn't mean that it is more likely that
it will come up tails the next time.

If you can not understand this, then I strongly advise you not to go to a casino, as people who do not understand statistics are their lawful prey.

Like I posted some months ago, A salesman at a high end store said that about half of their installs cannot receive OTA, and he look
puzzled as to why.


Anecdotal evidence is worthless without additional information, especially when you are reporting the statement of a third party that
the figure is "about" such-and-such.

In order to be useful, we need a statistically significant sample size of *all* the shops installs, and reports of success and failure from
*each* of these. Note the emphasized words; anything less than all of the installs biases the data. Shops get more feedback from unhappy
customers than from happy customers. Consequently, data based upon customer feedback is biased.

Next, even if the 50% figure is accurate, the report omits such critical information as location. For example, a shop selling HDTV systems in
Anchorage probably will have such a low rate; there isn't much HDTV in Anchorage, and the mountains and forests which surround Anchorage
greatly impact TV receiption outside of the urban center.

One of the key problems is that the sales of OTA receivers and
integrated HD sets is so bad that the CEA obfuscates or doesn't report
true or any numbers. No mention of return rates or problems with
reception. Word of mouth takes care of that though. Or maybe someone
directs them to the AVSForum. Reading what they post there, that will
turn anyone off to DTV. First they say how much the "WOW" factor is with
HD then they go into their travails in receiving it. OTA is fading away
there to. Most talk is of cable and satellite now when they are not
moaning about not being able to get a 5th gen receiver.

In fact the CEA is ignoring OTA altogether lately. Their friends in
cable and satellite are probably very happy over this. OTA is dead long
die OTA they sing.

If you fail to consider all such factors, you're doing the same thing that Psycho Bob Miller the pathological liar does when he acts like New
York City and its conditions are the thing that counts for the entire country.

No I don't say that New York represents condition for the entire
country. I say that New York should be allowed to use a modulation that
works. A lot of people live here and in other cities that have
significant multipath problems. Sinclair was asking in 2000 for COFDM to
be allowed not to switch to COFDM. 8-VSB could have gone on and on as it
has doing nothing. In the meantime broadcasters like Sinclair could have
been broadcasting to million of satisfied OTA customers like is
happening in many countries. Japan, the UK, Germany and Italy have all
sold over a million receivers with the UK at 5 million after 2 years,
Japan at 2.161 million after one year. The US could be at least at 60
million COFDM receivers over the last 5 years.

Bob Miller

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Charles Tieman wrote:

On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 09:18:36 -0500, "Matthew L. Martin"

I will if bob will. So far he has shown absolutely no respect for the
truth therefore he deserves no respect.



This is one strange newsgroup and "truth" is not respected for sure.
Some of you make endless assertions about how wonderful OTA HDTV is,
but, when I read the posts on avsforum for my part of California
served by Sacramento stations, I hear of problems with wind, with
fog, with"terrain shielding and multipath", with "atmospheric
particulates". We are warned that frequent dropouts are to be
expected. For me, it works well most of the time, but I wouldn't want
to depend on it. I'm keeping my local station service on Directv.

Most of you seem to have nothing to contribute but trash talk against
Bob Miller. At least he is giving his version of the situation with
OTA broadcasting and putting his neck out making predictions. I
certainly enjoy hearing from him. Most of the rest of you should find
a life, some of you, like vidguy7, should get back to the books or
you'll never get out of Jr High.

charlie

Thanks charlie

Bob Miller

Jeff Rife wrote:

Mark Crispin ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:

In order to be useful, we need a statistically significant sample size of
*all* the shops installs, and reports of success and failure from *each*
of these. Note the emphasized words; anything less than all of the
installs biases the data. Shops get more feedback from unhappy customers
than from happy customers. Consequently, data based upon customer
feedback is biased.


In addition, different installers often end up with different results based
on the skill of the installer. Here in the DC area, there are a few "name"
installers of TV antennas, and one has gotten a horrible rep due to the
fact that their installs don't work well for digital TV, yet other
companies can come through afterward and fix things.

So, if one installer is having a lot of bad luck receiving digital TV on
their installs, that doesn't necessarily mean that digital TV is hard to
receive...it might just mean the installer doesn't know what he is doing.

In the UK the installer most often is the buyer. You pick up a COFDM
receiver at the local convenience store for $50 or so and you take it
home and plug it in, done. Then you like it so much you pick up a couple
more for other TVs around the house. 25% of sales are to homes that
already have one.

I know that is true in the US also but more likely the second purchase
is to find a receiver that works better than the first one. I never
heard of "open box" specials in the UK which seem so prevalent in the
US. They do not have the problems with reception in the UK even though
their broadcast power levels are on average about 1/1000 th of the power
used by US broadcasters.

That makes it so strange to hear people talk of the power advantage
8-VSB supposedly has over COFDM. Truly weird.

Bob Miller

Matthew L. Martin wrote:

Charles Tieman wrote:

On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 09:18:36 -0500, "Matthew L. Martin"

I will if bob will. So far he has shown absolutely no respect for the
truth therefore he deserves no respect.



This is one strange newsgroup and "truth" is not respected for sure.
Some of you make endless assertions about how wonderful OTA HDTV is,
but, when I read the posts on avsforum for my part of California
served by Sacramento stations, I hear of problems with wind, with
fog, with"terrain shielding and multipath", with "atmospheric
particulates". We are warned that frequent dropouts are to be
expected.


How good is your OTA on NTSC stations?

For me, it works well most of the time, but I wouldn't want
to depend on it. I'm keeping my local station service on Directv.


So, for all of the "problems" you cite, you say that it works well most
of the time. The fellow you are defending says it never works, it is
fatally flawed and the modulation scheme is the reason that consumers
aren't buying HD.

Most of you seem to have nothing to contribute but trash talk against
Bob Miller. At least he is giving his version of the situation with
OTA broadcasting and putting his neck out making predictions.


You should note that he has been 100% wrong in his predictions. He also
argues frequenty that physics is wrong.

Could you list predictions that were wrong or name a "physics" that I
disputed?

I
certainly enjoy hearing from him.


Care to say why someone who has been caught out in lies as often as bob
has been is worth listening to?

Could you list a lie I have been caught at please? Simple assertions are
not very persuasive.

Bob Miller

Jeff Rife wrote:
Bob Miller ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:

Sinclair was only asking for COFDM to be allowed so
that it could be used in cities like New York and Baltimore where 8-VSB
did not and still does not work.


ROFLMAO

Baltimore digital TV works just fine...except for the two Sinclair stations
that were dragging their feet for the longest time. They finally got network
passthrough working, so Baltimore can get Fox and WB in HD. And, only
those with ATSC receivers can do so, because Sinclair refuses to allow the
local Comcast to carry their digital channels.

I'm a good 50 miles away from the Baltimore towers and can receive all
the signals just fine, now that the CBS station has finished work on their
full-power transmitter.

Hey attack dog Mark, here is one. He claims Baltimore is great because
he get reception 50 miles away. The poor slobs who actually live in
Baltimore have a different reality. But tell Jeff all about how his
sample of ONE is just BS please.

Bob Miller

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 05:33:36 GMT, Bob Miller
wrote:

Tim Keating wrote:

Bob Miller wrote:

And is still happening today. It's the parallel nature of COFDM carriers that works against it. It
simultaneously xmits on hundreds
if not thousands of carriers at the same time.. An impulse noise event of sufficient duration corrupts them all simultaneously. No
way around that problem other than to xmit the same data patterns over and over again.

COFDM's problem with reoccuring impulse noise especially problematic, since it also corrupts subsequent retransmissions.


Later designs have eliminated impulse noise as a problem. I can get 8-VSB to blink by simply turning a

Bob seams to think that one can magically, recover data that the
receiver doesn't have.. (I don't think so..)...



^^^^^^^ you don't own a (H)DTV.. therefore it's Unlikely that you have an ATSC 8-VSB receiver.

Amazing what you think you know. I have multiple 8-VSB receivers and do
own an HDTV.


What bob left out..

" As for what you claim to have, list the make, model, and exact
overall configuration for each transmitter and receiver. I'll bet
dollars to donuts that you rigged results and are comparing apples to
oranges AGAIN. "

Again.... List all the make, model, and exact... test configurations..