BobT wrote:
On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:20:15 -0500, "Matthew L. Martin"
wrote:



Actually, bob said absolutely nothing of the kind. I was one of those
that pointed out that 5th generation chips were likely be available in
integrated sets.


I realize many on this group are in the "get bob" camp, but it is a
good idea to at least stay close to the truth.

I will if bob will. So far he has shown absolutely no respect for the
truth therefore he deserves no respect.

Check Google, there
are several of Bob's posts that made that statement.

All of which are conspicuously absent from the quoted thread (his most
recent on the subject).

Just for background, 8-VSB works fine for me, surrounded by tall
apartment buildings in Chicago, as it apparently does for you.

A data point that bob will ignore.

Matthew

Tim Keating wrote:

On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 03:45:49 GMT, Bob Miller
wrote:


Matthew L. Martin wrote:


Bob Miller wrote:


"Most people" is not enough for a working system I am afraid. As is
evident after these last 7 years of stagnation.


In that case, you should give up your harebrained scheme to display
8-VSB with COFDM since that won't cover most people in the US due to the
increased power required to be competitive in the far field.

Matthew

Well the Chinese who recently tested the latest COFDM receivers with the
latest algorithms say that COFDM is 2.5 db better than 8-VSB.


As the europeans are finding out the hard way, all the lab testing
in the world doesn't equal squat in the real world. China claims to
be deploying a hybrid DMB-T using 8Mhz channel bandwidth.

The only place that the supposed and past tense 2 to 4 db of advantage
8-VSB had over COFDM was in LAB TEST. In the real world country after
country that picked COFDM could not find this difference. I agree with
you "all the lab testing in the world doesn't equal squat in the real
world". And now that lab testing that doesn't mean "squat" says that
COFDM has the advantage by 2.5 db anyway.

The hard way? Selling all the receivers they can make? Pace pulled out
of the market in the UK because there are so many players profit margins
have shrunk. 25% of purchases of OTA COFDM receivers are people buying
second, third and fourth receivers as gifts or for other TV sets.

The test that China did were as near to 19.3 Mbps as possible for HD
which is what a US 6 MHz channel can handle.

The US is limited to 6Mhz channel widths and has thousands of
pre-existing TV stations already on the air. (A Huge Difference).

China has thousand of pre-existing TV stations on the air, I don't get
your point. 6 MHz is a non issue when considering what is that best
modulation. 8-VSB does not offer some advantage in a 6 MHz channel that
COFDM does not.

Lastly, you forgot to add in that COFDM needs an extra 10 to 15dB
S/N to overcome local impulse noise sources. (Something one doesn't
find out until they do a wide scale consumer deployment, and the
neighbors start using their newly purchased vacuum cleaners.)

That did happen in 1999 and 2000 with a bad design for the first 2K
DVB-T receivers in the UK. Couldn't have been too bad since they sold a
lot of them and people still use them. Later designs have eliminated
impulse noise as a problem. I can get 8-VSB to blink by simply turning a
fluorescent light on and off near a receiver. Something my COFDM
receiver has no problem with.


and from

I am familiar with all that is happening in China. Most of this is now
old news only a couple of months later. China is close to the final
touches on DMB-T and everyone seems happy with it. We will test it as
soon as we can.

http://www.smpte.org.au/industrynews.asp

HEADLINES
Updated 12-01-05

"China Announces DTV Chip

A university in Shanghai says it has designed China’s first home-made
digital TV chip in collaboration with two domestic companies - Grace
Semiconductor Manufacturing Corporation and Semiconductor
Manufacturing International Corporation."

Their First TV chip.. and it's only Jan 12 .. 2005..

"The China Daily newspaper reported that the chip, known as "Zhongshi
No 1", was designed based on China's Digital Multimedia Television
Broadcasting (DMB-T) standard. It quoted Zhou Dian, president of the
School of Microelectronics at Fudan University, as saying the chip had
outdone European and US standards for experimental broadcasts of
digital TV."

Claims only.. we'll see how it really performs, if it ever get's
deployed. COFDM's achilles heal (impulse noise) never showed it true
colors in a laboratory environment.

"According to other reports, however, China's digital TV standard is
losing appeal among manufacturers and broadcasters, which have been
turning to foreign systems after Beijing failed to announce its own
standards."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Looks like China is having some problems...


"The China Daily newspaper reported that regulators have been pushing
for China to develop its own digital TV standards, hoping to avoid
dependence on Western technology and nurture a new domestic industry.
But after they missed a deadline to issue a digital TV standard by the
end of 2003, broadcasters and manufacturers have been exploring
foreign standards."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Still sitting on the fence???


State-owned Guangdong Radio & Television New Technology Development is
using DVB-T for a trial programme to broadcast to receivers in taxis,
public buses and other vehicles. Similar trials of "mobile television"
are starting in Beijing and the central province of Hunan.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
We in the US don't care for mobile TV.. It's a dangerous
distraction for the driver, and inherently low def..

Amazingly ignorant statement. 60% of SUV's sold by Chrysler come with
built in rear seat DVD players. That is before the after market which is
going crazy with this stuff. Sirius and XM have both announced that they
would be offering satellite TV. Qualcomm and Crown Castle are both
getting into the business with national plans. We OBVIOUSLY care a great
deal about TV in the vehicle.

Bob Miller

P.S. Have you ever try to read a book while traveling in a car?
Did you get a headache trying it? Do you know why???

Bob Miller wrote:
Tim Keating wrote:


We in the US don't care for mobile TV.. It's a dangerous
distraction for the driver, and inherently low def..


Amazingly ignorant statement. 60% of SUV's sold by Chrysler come with
built in rear seat DVD players. That is before the after market which is
going crazy with this stuff. Sirius and XM have both announced that they
would be offering satellite TV. Qualcomm and Crown Castle are both
getting into the business with national plans. We OBVIOUSLY care a great
deal about TV in the vehicle.


The only thing that is obvious is that certain concerns are going to try
low definition satellite delivery of video content. There is no
guarantee that those efforts are going to succeed (technically or as a
business model), just as there is no guarantee that your scheme will
succeed.

Matthew

But for the last 7 years and even now 8-VSB needs "proper" big
ugly rotorized antennas that will not help a bit

Yet ANOTHER lie from BOB!! He's on a roll folks, don't stop him. We all know
that many people have no problems getting perfectly gorgeous 8VSB reception
with antennas in attics, small outdoor antennas, and yes, in SOME cases, larger
antennas with rotors. And to say these lareger antennas with rotors "will not
help a bit" is as bold a face lie as you've ever told. You are a despicable
little man BOB!

You will never understand that we are here watching your posts and catching you
in each and every LIE you tell.

"Vidguy7" wrote in message
...
But for the last 7 years and even now 8-VSB needs "proper" big
ugly rotorized antennas that will not help a bit

Yet ANOTHER lie from BOB!! He's on a roll folks, don't stop him. We all
know
that many people have no problems getting perfectly gorgeous 8VSB
reception
with antennas in attics, small outdoor antennas, and yes, in SOME cases,
larger
antennas with rotors. And to say these lareger antennas with rotors "will
not
help a bit" is as bold a face lie as you've ever told. You are a
despicable
little man BOB!

You will never understand that we are here watching your posts and
catching you in each and every LIE you tell.

Bob must be referring to an antenna like this one:

http://www.satalogue.com/section7/page3.htm

"BobT" wrote

I realize many on this group are in the "get bob" camp, but it is a
good idea to at least stay close to the truth. Check Google, there
are several of Bob's posts that made that statement.

Just for background, 8-VSB works fine for me, surrounded by tall
apartment buildings in Chicago, as it apparently does for you.

Bob, you should be really grateful [as we all should] that we have 8VSB
HDTV.

Bob Miller actually testified against our system in Washington in 2000,
trying to quash its deployment. All simply to line his pockets, as the owner
of a datacasting company. Interesting that he had apparently been accused of
lying, even then.

http://www.broadcast.net/pipermail/d...ly/000137.html

!

I can get 8-VSB to blink by simply turning a
fluorescent light on and off near a receiver. Something my COFDM
receiver has no problem with.

Funny BOB, I can't get any of my 8VSB receivers to do that. However, my XM
radio, relying on COFDM repeaters, DOES have problems getting a steady signal.
So much for real world use of COFDM.

Bob must be referring to an antenna like this one:

http://www.satalogue.com/section7/page3.htm

Now THAT'S funny! :)

David wrote:
"BobT" wrote


I realize many on this group are in the "get bob" camp, but it is a
good idea to at least stay close to the truth. Check Google, there
are several of Bob's posts that made that statement.

Just for background, 8-VSB works fine for me, surrounded by tall
apartment buildings in Chicago, as it apparently does for you.


Bob, you should be really grateful [as we all should] that we have 8VSB
HDTV.

Bob Miller actually testified against our system in Washington in 2000,
trying to quash its deployment. All simply to line his pockets, as the owner
of a datacasting company. Interesting that he had apparently been accused of
lying, even then.

http://www.broadcast.net/pipermail/d...ly/000137.html


If you care to visit the content free site of viacel, you can click on
the email link and send a message to bob miller:

http://www.viacel.com/

I think he would be better off without a website than with that pathetic
page.

Matthew

Vidguy7 ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
But for the last 7 years and even now 8-VSB needs "proper" big
ugly rotorized antennas that will not help a bit

Yet ANOTHER lie from BOB!! He's on a roll folks, don't stop him. We all know
that many people have no problems getting perfectly gorgeous 8VSB reception
with antennas in attics, small outdoor antennas, and yes, in SOME cases, larger
antennas with rotors.

You forgot all the people that do use indoor antennas like the Silver
Sensor. I can't, because of the metal in my house (beams and siding),
but when I was testing my outdoor antenna by connecting it in the basement,
I got about half the channels. I could probably get all of them from
inside the attic, but it's no big deal to mount an outdoor antenna.

--
Jeff Rife | "What's goin' on down here?"
| "Oh, we're playing house."
| "But, that boy is all tied up."
| "...Roman Polanski's house."
| -- Lois and Stewie Griffin, "Family Guy"