Matthew L. Martin wrote:
Bob Miller wrote:

Matthew L. Martin wrote:

BobT wrote:

On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 16:48:23 -0500, "Matthew L. Martin"
wrote:


Rickk wrote:

Ok,
Just checking with this group that what I understand is true?
LG customer support checked with engineering who confirmed that
their current LZ30 lines of LCD TVs, also specifically, the LG
model DU-37LZ30 37 inch TV has the 5th Generation ATSC tuner. I
had thought this was not available yet.




That's probably because you were misled by bob.





Well, actually this is precisely what Bob (and others) said LG was
planning, that is, to make the 5th Gen. chips available in integrated
HDTV's, but not in ATSC tuners/STB's.


Actually, bob said absolutely nothing of the kind. I was one of those
that pointed out that 5th generation chips were likely be available
in integrated sets.

His obvious intent was to mislead:

As of now No one plans on shipping a stand alone 5th generation LG
receiver.

Bob Miller




Matthew




In answer to Matt's obvious intent to mislead....


Sorry bob. I quoted everything you said in your most recent thread
intended to sow FUD. Nowhere in that thread did you state that 5th
generation chips would appear in integrated sets.

Of course, there is the well proven fact that most people don't have
severe multipath problems and could care less about multipath mitigation
in any generation of receiver.


Matthew

Most people could be 51%. I don't like flying on airplanes that don't
crash 51% of the time.

"Most people" is not enough for a working system I am afraid. As is
evident after these last 7 years of stagnation.

Bob Miller wrote:

"Most people" is not enough for a working system I am afraid. As is
evident after these last 7 years of stagnation.

In that case, you should give up your harebrained scheme to display
8-VSB with COFDM since that won't cover most people in the US due to the
increased power required to be competitive in the far field.

Matthew

Bob Miller wrote:


Most people could be 51%. I don't like flying on airplanes that don't
crash 51% of the time.

"Most people" is not enough for a working system I am afraid. As is
evident after these last 7 years of stagnation.

Care to cite a study that backs up your silly claim? From the reports we
get in this newsgroup the success rate for OTA reception appears to be
well above 75%. With proper antenna systems, it could be _+MUCH+_ higher.

Matthew

Matthew L. Martin ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
Of course, there is the well proven fact that most people don't have
severe multipath problems and could care less about multipath mitigation
in any generation of receiver.

The people beta-testing the MDP-130 PCI card (which uses a 5th generation
ATI chipset) say that it has more multipath resistance but is also slightly
more sensitive (not a lot, but some). So, I think one thing that might
happen is that 5th gen chipsets will make a difference even in non-multipath
situations just because they have other "new" things.

--
Jeff Rife | "Eternity with nerds. It's the Pasadena Star
| Trek convention all over again."
|
| -- Nichelle Nichols, "Futurama"

Matthew L. Martin wrote:

Bob Miller wrote:


"Most people" is not enough for a working system I am afraid. As is
evident after these last 7 years of stagnation.


In that case, you should give up your harebrained scheme to display
8-VSB with COFDM since that won't cover most people in the US due to the
increased power required to be competitive in the far field.

Matthew

Well the Chinese who recently tested the latest COFDM receivers with the
latest algorithms say that COFDM is 2.5 db better than 8-VSB. That is
almost a full 100% more power necessary for 8-VSB than COFDM. Tables may
have been turned. I am waiting for the official results.

Anyone using COFDM would not be interested in the power requirements to
BLAST signal from a single 2000 ft antenna anyway. They would/will, as
Qualcomm and Crown Castle, build SFN's that will use 100 Watt to 50 kW
transmitters on low 500 ft or less towers. Their power bills will be
much lower as will their combined rent. The Empire State Building has a
monopoly on height and little space, imagine the rent.

We were able to put transmitters on apartment buildings (which had
special roofs and facilities just for us) for $1000 to $2000 a month and
we used solid state transmitters. The rent included the electric. Can
you imagine the electric bill for a MEGAWatt liquid cooled transmitter
on the ESB???

And if something knocked one of our transmitters out it was hard to tell
without a spectrum analyzer.

Not so with the World Trade Center. Most TV was wiped out in New York.

What we are doing in the US is ancient stuff. We are only doing it
because broadcasters depend on must carry here and could care less about
their OTA spectrum. That is going to change.

Bob Miller

Matthew L. Martin wrote:

Bob Miller wrote:


Most people could be 51%. I don't like flying on airplanes that don't
crash 51% of the time.

"Most people" is not enough for a working system I am afraid. As is
evident after these last 7 years of stagnation.


Care to cite a study that backs up your silly claim? From the reports we
get in this newsgroup the success rate for OTA reception appears to be
well above 75%. With proper antenna systems, it could be _+MUCH+_ higher.

Matthew

Proper antenna systems with COFDM are small enough to fit in a cell
phone. Proper antennas with a 5th gen 8-VSB receiver are a $2 loop
antenna. But for the last 7 years and even now 8-VSB needs "proper" big
ugly rotorized antennas that will not help a bit, BTW, 5 miles from the
ESB in Manhattan if you have bad multipath.

BTW I will accept 75%. That is HORRIBLE. Not much better than 51%. As
the military, DoD, said about COFDM compared to 8-VSB, " we normally
think in terms of 99% plus in our RF systems." They were looking at 35%
to 65% for 8-VSB at the time.

Berlin's system was designed for 98% indoor reception in the coverage
area with COFDM. In Manhattan with 4th gen receivers the number must be
something like 20%. I will grant that 5th gen could take 8-VSB to over
95% for fixed reception in Manhattan.

But there is still no reason for the US to have a grossly inferior DTV
modulation to the rest of the world.

Bob Miller

"Most people" is not enough for a working system I am afraid. As is
evident after these last 7 years of stagnation.


The only thing 'stagnating' BOB, are your lies.

"Matthew L. Martin" wrote in message
...
Bob Miller wrote:


Most people could be 51%. I don't like flying on airplanes that don't
crash 51% of the time.

"Most people" is not enough for a working system I am afraid. As is
evident after these last 7 years of stagnation.

Care to cite a study that backs up your silly claim? From the reports we
get in this newsgroup the success rate for OTA reception appears to be
well above 75%. With proper antenna systems, it could be _+MUCH+_ higher.

I guess me and the only other two people I know who have tried OTA are just
unlucky,
100% are in your 25%. With your success rate at least one would be working
just fine,
but that is just not the case. Like I posted some months ago, A salesman at
a high end
store said that about half of their installs cannot receive OTA, and he look
puzzled as to why.

Anyway, seems that most people who have problems just give up and get a
cable box, like
I did (at least until football season is over). This leaves only the ones
who have no problems
or are technical enough to solve small problems (but most people want and
need plug and play)
to post in this group, thus your 75%.


Matthew

On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 03:45:49 GMT, Bob Miller
wrote:

Matthew L. Martin wrote:

Bob Miller wrote:


"Most people" is not enough for a working system I am afraid. As is
evident after these last 7 years of stagnation.


In that case, you should give up your harebrained scheme to display
8-VSB with COFDM since that won't cover most people in the US due to the
increased power required to be competitive in the far field.

Matthew

Well the Chinese who recently tested the latest COFDM receivers with the
latest algorithms say that COFDM is 2.5 db better than 8-VSB.

As the europeans are finding out the hard way, all the lab testing
in the world doesn't equal squat in the real world. China claims to
be deploying a hybrid DMB-T using 8Mhz channel bandwidth.

The US is limited to 6Mhz channel widths and has thousands of
pre-existing TV stations already on the air. (A Huge Difference).

Lastly, you forgot to add in that COFDM needs an extra 10 to 15dB
S/N to overcome local impulse noise sources. (Something one doesn't
find out until they do a wide scale consumer deployment, and the
neighbors start using their newly purchased vacuum cleaners.)


and from

http://www.smpte.org.au/industrynews.asp

HEADLINES
Updated 12-01-05

"China Announces DTV Chip

A university in Shanghai says it has designed China’s first home-made
digital TV chip in collaboration with two domestic companies - Grace
Semiconductor Manufacturing Corporation and Semiconductor
Manufacturing International Corporation."

Their First TV chip.. and it's only Jan 12 .. 2005..

"The China Daily newspaper reported that the chip, known as "Zhongshi
No 1", was designed based on China's Digital Multimedia Television
Broadcasting (DMB-T) standard. It quoted Zhou Dian, president of the
School of Microelectronics at Fudan University, as saying the chip had
outdone European and US standards for experimental broadcasts of
digital TV."

Claims only.. we'll see how it really performs, if it ever get's
deployed. COFDM's achilles heal (impulse noise) never showed it true
colors in a laboratory environment.

"According to other reports, however, China's digital TV standard is
losing appeal among manufacturers and broadcasters, which have been
turning to foreign systems after Beijing failed to announce its own
standards."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Looks like China is having some problems...


"The China Daily newspaper reported that regulators have been pushing
for China to develop its own digital TV standards, hoping to avoid
dependence on Western technology and nurture a new domestic industry.
But after they missed a deadline to issue a digital TV standard by the
end of 2003, broadcasters and manufacturers have been exploring
foreign standards."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Still sitting on the fence???


State-owned Guangdong Radio & Television New Technology Development is
using DVB-T for a trial programme to broadcast to receivers in taxis,
public buses and other vehicles. Similar trials of "mobile television"
are starting in Beijing and the central province of Hunan.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
We in the US don't care for mobile TV.. It's a dangerous
distraction for the driver, and inherently low def..

P.S. Have you ever try to read a book while traveling in a car?
Did you get a headache trying it? Do you know why???

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:20:15 -0500, "Matthew L. Martin"
wrote:


Actually, bob said absolutely nothing of the kind. I was one of those
that pointed out that 5th generation chips were likely be available in
integrated sets.

I realize many on this group are in the "get bob" camp, but it is a
good idea to at least stay close to the truth. Check Google, there
are several of Bob's posts that made that statement.

Just for background, 8-VSB works fine for me, surrounded by tall
apartment buildings in Chicago, as it apparently does for you.