Glass vs Plastic Lenses in Panasonic HDTV ?? How do I find out?
 

Hi all,

I'm looking at the Panasonic 53 in. Projection TV model #PT-53X54, and
I've been told to see whether it has glass or plastic lenses. I do
play games (X-Box) and I've been told by several folks to make sure
the television I choose has glass lenses and not plastic lenses due to
this fact.

I checked with three local electronic stores, but none could tell me
whether this television (or any of their HD televisions for that
matter) had plastic or glass lenses.

This TV is a mid-range Panasonic television, so I'd like to think it's
glass, but not sure.

Suggestions? Here's an article I found mentioning this also --
http://www.myhometheater.homestead.c...eoBasics2.html

Thanks for your time,

Ringo

Ringo Langly wrote:

Hi all,

I'm looking at the Panasonic 53 in. Projection TV model #PT-53X54, and
I've been told to see whether it has glass or plastic lenses. I do
play games (X-Box) and I've been told by several folks to make sure
the television I choose has glass lenses and not plastic lenses due to
this fact.

I have no idea why gamers should avoid plastic lenses. Do you?

I checked with three local electronic stores, but none could tell me
whether this television (or any of their HD televisions for that
matter) had plastic or glass lenses.

This TV is a mid-range Panasonic television, so I'd like to think it's
glass, but not sure.

Suggestions? Here's an article I found mentioning this also --
http://www.myhometheater.homestead.c...eoBasics2.html


Where it says:

"Lenses: The lenses focus the light from the tubes onto the screen.
They can be made of glass or plastic. Glass is better as it allows for
better focus, but is more expensive".

This kind of blanket statement with no qualifiers is essentially
useless. Using high quality plastic lenses can cost more than using low
quality glass. High performance plastic lenses can produce better images
than low performance glass lenses. Well designed plastic lens systems
can use fewer elements than a poorly designed glass lens system.

I suspect any difference between the two would be similar to the
differences between glass fiber and plastic fiber for toslink
connections, not much.

Matthew

--
Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game

There are ZERO projection TVs out there with all-glass lenses. You wouldn't
even want one if there was because there are thermal expansion issues with
glass.

Toshiba's top of the line 'Niltava' lenses had one glass element, but I don't
believe Panasonic ever used these lenses. I'm pretty sure all Panasonic sets
(and most Toshiba's) use the 'Shortwing' lenses which are all plastic elements.

But like the other poster mentioned, I can't think of any reason for wanting one
over the other...be it for video game play or any other reason.


"Ringo Langly" wrote in message
om...
Hi all,

I'm looking at the Panasonic 53 in. Projection TV model #PT-53X54, and
I've been told to see whether it has glass or plastic lenses. I do
play games (X-Box) and I've been told by several folks to make sure
the television I choose has glass lenses and not plastic lenses due to
this fact.

I checked with three local electronic stores, but none could tell me
whether this television (or any of their HD televisions for that
matter) had plastic or glass lenses.

This TV is a mid-range Panasonic television, so I'd like to think it's
glass, but not sure.

Suggestions? Here's an article I found mentioning this also --
http://www.myhometheater.homestead.c...eoBasics2.html

Thanks for your time,

Ringo

"John Golitsis" wrote in message
...
There are ZERO projection TVs out there with all-glass lenses. You
wouldn't
even want one if there was because there are thermal expansion issues with
glass.

What kind of thermal expansion issues? The coefficient of thermal expansion
for glass is much less than plastic. Glass could have a problem with thermal
shock from rapidily changing temperatures but that doesn't seem likely in a
projection TV. I'm curious what the issue could be.


Toshiba's top of the line 'Niltava' lenses had one glass element, but I
don't
believe Panasonic ever used these lenses. I'm pretty sure all Panasonic
sets
(and most Toshiba's) use the 'Shortwing' lenses which are all plastic
elements.

But like the other poster mentioned, I can't think of any reason for
wanting one
over the other...be it for video game play or any other reason.


"Ringo Langly" wrote in message
om...
Hi all,

I'm looking at the Panasonic 53 in. Projection TV model #PT-53X54, and
I've been told to see whether it has glass or plastic lenses. I do
play games (X-Box) and I've been told by several folks to make sure
the television I choose has glass lenses and not plastic lenses due to
this fact.

I checked with three local electronic stores, but none could tell me
whether this television (or any of their HD televisions for that
matter) had plastic or glass lenses.

This TV is a mid-range Panasonic television, so I'd like to think it's
glass, but not sure.

Suggestions? Here's an article I found mentioning this also --
http://www.myhometheater.homestead.c...eoBasics2.html

Thanks for your time,

Ringo

"Ringo Langly" wrote in message
om...
Hi all,

I'm looking at the Panasonic 53 in. Projection TV model #PT-53X54, and
I've been told to see whether it has glass or plastic lenses. I do
play games (X-Box) and I've been told by several folks to make sure
the television I choose has glass lenses and not plastic lenses due to
this fact.

I checked with three local electronic stores, but none could tell me
whether this television (or any of their HD televisions for that
matter) had plastic or glass lenses.

This TV is a mid-range Panasonic television, so I'd like to think it's
glass, but not sure.

Suggestions? Here's an article I found mentioning this also --
http://www.myhometheater.homestead.c...eoBasics2.html

Thanks for your time,

Ringo

I cant beleive panny would engage in such a cost cutting measure, although
the akai 52in 800 dollar hdtvs flying out of circuit city I'm not so sure
of.
I saw the 53 in your talking about, and almost upgraded my 3 yr old panny
47, but decided to wait.
I dont think you can go wrong with this brand
Go to panny.tv for all the info you need about this brand from enthusiastic
owners, including how to disable the scan velocity modulation and get into
the service menu

"Matthew L. Martin" wrote in message ...
Ringo Langly wrote:

Hi all,

I'm looking at the Panasonic 53 in. Projection TV model #PT-53X54, and
I've been told to see whether it has glass or plastic lenses. I do
play games (X-Box) and I've been told by several folks to make sure
the television I choose has glass lenses and not plastic lenses due to
this fact.

I have no idea why gamers should avoid plastic lenses. Do you?

I checked with three local electronic stores, but none could tell me
whether this television (or any of their HD televisions for that
matter) had plastic or glass lenses.

This TV is a mid-range Panasonic television, so I'd like to think it's
glass, but not sure.

Suggestions? Here's an article I found mentioning this also --
http://www.myhometheater.homestead.c...eoBasics2.html


Where it says:

"Lenses: The lenses focus the light from the tubes onto the screen.
They can be made of glass or plastic. Glass is better as it allows for
better focus, but is more expensive".

This kind of blanket statement with no qualifiers is essentially
useless. Using high quality plastic lenses can cost more than using low
quality glass. High performance plastic lenses can produce better images
than low performance glass lenses. Well designed plastic lens systems
can use fewer elements than a poorly designed glass lens system.

I suspect any difference between the two would be similar to the
differences between glass fiber and plastic fiber for toslink
connections, not much.

Matthew


Hi Matthew and everyone else who replied...

This is why I made the post... a friend of mine who does home theater
installations told me while shopping to look for this, and after doing
some digging online I found several websites mentioning this as well.
As to the technical reasons why glass is better over plastic I
couldn't tell you -- I'm just doing as i always do and researching an
expensive purchase as much as possible. If the concensus of the group
is that glass vs plastic lenses is a null argument or mute point, then
I won't worry about it.

Thanks for all th e feedback,

Ringo

(Ringo Langly) wrote in
om:

This is why I made the post... a friend of mine who does home theater
installations told me while shopping to look for this, and after doing
some digging online I found several websites mentioning this as well.
As to the technical reasons why glass is better over plastic I
couldn't tell you -- I'm just doing as i always do and researching an
expensive purchase as much as possible. If the concensus of the group
is that glass vs plastic lenses is a null argument or mute point, then
I won't worry about it.

It's a moot point - manufacturer's don't advertise if the lens is made from
glass or plastic so most consumers will never know. What does matter is how
the TV performs on the whole.

If you're looking for a recommendation... take a look at Samsung's DLP RPTV
or even the Sony Grand Wegas. They're both very nice. Mitsubishi and
Hitachi also have good LCD RPTVs.


--
Lucas Tam )
Please delete "REMOVE" from the e-mail address when replying.
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/coolspot18/

"Ringo Langly" wrote in message
om...
Hi all,

I'm looking at the Panasonic 53 in. Projection TV model #PT-53X54, and
I've been told to see whether it has glass or plastic lenses. I do
play games (X-Box) and I've been told by several folks to make sure
the television I choose has glass lenses and not plastic lenses due to
this fact.

I checked with three local electronic stores, but none could tell me
whether this television (or any of their HD televisions for that
matter) had plastic or glass lenses.

This TV is a mid-range Panasonic television, so I'd like to think it's
glass, but not sure.

Suggestions? Here's an article I found mentioning this also --
http://www.myhometheater.homestead.c...eoBasics2.html

Thanks for your time,

Ringo

The Panasonic you refer to is an RP-CRT model. The local Mits dealer in
town actually has old tubes and lenses available for customers to take a
look at, part of the sales pitch. The lenses I looked at appeared to be
made of glass.

The reference link you provided had a couple of errors. The 7", 9" CRT
measurement is not diagonal, the tubes are round and hence the measurement
is a diameter. 9" tubes are needed for larger displays, more a matter of
the physics involved than a measurement of the quality of the sets.

For gaming (X-box etc.) RP-CRT is not the best choice due to the burn in
issues.

Ed

In article , anon-e-
says...
(Ringo Langly) wrote in
om:

I'm looking at the Panasonic 53 in. Projection TV model #PT-53X54, and
I've been told to see whether it has glass or plastic lenses. I do
play games (X-Box)



You're going to burn in your TV if you play games on a CRT RPTV.

You'll need to purchase an LCD based TV such as a LCD flat panel or LCD
RPTV (i.e. Sony Grand Wega).

You can burn in your TV if you play games on an LCD too, although its
less serious an issue.

The only new technology without burn in is DLP.

(And maybe LCoS... I don't know about that one??)

42 wrote in news:[email protected]:


You can burn in your TV if you play games on an LCD too, although its
less serious an issue.

You can't burn an LCD - it's a passive technology.


The only new technology without burn in is DLP.

(And maybe LCoS... I don't know about that one??)


--
Lucas Tam )
Please delete "REMOVE" from the e-mail address when replying.
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/coolspot18/

In article ,
says...
42 wrote in news:[email protected]:


You can burn in your TV if you play games on an LCD too, although its
less serious an issue.

You can't burn an LCD - it's a passive technology.


Yes. You can.

Its usually called 'image retention', buts its effectively the same
thing. Fortunately, with LCD it is usually, but *not* always reversible
with time.

The problem is aggravated and tends towards permanence the brighter
(and/or hotter) your it is. (Heat aggravates it, and more brightness
means more heat)

Here's a couple links that don't mince words, are unbiased, and discuss
the proper treatment of LCD screens, and how to mitigate and resolve
burn in issues.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=10639
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=88343

And here's another that discusses a TI test (thest test was likely
somewhat biased but this review of it is quite fair), and expands on the
'heat' issues...

http://www.projectorcentral.com/lcd_dlp_test.htm

42 wrote in news:[email protected]:

You can't burn an LCD - it's a passive technology.


Yes. You can.

Its usually called 'image retention', buts its effectively the same
thing. Fortunately, with LCD it is usually, but *not* always reversible
with time.

Modern LCDs don't burn it in anymore... You'll be hard pressed to find one
that suffers from this phenomena.

--
Lucas Tam )
Please delete "REMOVE" from the e-mail address when replying.
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/coolspot18/

In article ,
says...
42 wrote in news:[email protected]:

You can't burn an LCD - it's a passive technology.


Yes. You can.

Its usually called 'image retention', buts its effectively the same
thing. Fortunately, with LCD it is usually, but *not* always reversible
with time.

Modern LCDs don't burn it in anymore... You'll be hard pressed to find one
that suffers from this phenomena.

I've seen it happen enough to be cautious. No offense intended, but I
have been unable to verify that claim.

Can you point at a specific screen/manufacturer that claims their is no
image retention on their units?

Furthermore, does that claim apply to the LCD units being stocked and
blown out in the major electronics outlets today? Or just to select
models or models of a specific heritage... ie should the buyer still
beware... or is it simply a non-issue with any and every unit one is
likely to find in a store today?

"Matthew L. Martin" wrote in message
...
Ringo Langly wrote:

Hi all,

I'm looking at the Panasonic 53 in. Projection TV model #PT-53X54, and
I've been told to see whether it has glass or plastic lenses. I do
play games (X-Box) and I've been told by several folks to make sure
the television I choose has glass lenses and not plastic lenses due to
this fact.

I have no idea why gamers should avoid plastic lenses. Do you?

I checked with three local electronic stores, but none could tell me
whether this television (or any of their HD televisions for that
matter) had plastic or glass lenses.

This TV is a mid-range Panasonic television, so I'd like to think it's
glass, but not sure.

Suggestions? Here's an article I found mentioning this also --
http://www.myhometheater.homestead.c...eoBasics2.html


Where it says:

"Lenses: The lenses focus the light from the tubes onto the screen.
They can be made of glass or plastic. Glass is better as it allows for
better focus, but is more expensive".

This kind of blanket statement with no qualifiers is essentially
useless. Using high quality plastic lenses can cost more than using low
quality glass. High performance plastic lenses can produce better images
than low performance glass lenses. Well designed plastic lens systems
can use fewer elements than a poorly designed glass lens system.

I suspect any difference between the two would be similar to the
differences between glass fiber and plastic fiber for toslink
connections, not much.

Matthew
It can make a big difference.
Plastic lenses will warp eventually from heat, very slightly but enough to
make precise focusing a bitch
This is why most manufacturers went to glass over a decade ago, there was a
big hullabaloo about it
--
Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game

"42" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
In article ,
says...
42 wrote in news:[email protected]:

You can't burn an LCD - it's a passive technology.


Yes. You can.

Its usually called 'image retention', buts its effectively the same
thing. Fortunately, with LCD it is usually, but *not* always reversible
with time.

Modern LCDs don't burn it in anymore... You'll be hard pressed to find
one
that suffers from this phenomena.

I've seen it happen enough to be cautious. No offense intended, but I
have been unable to verify that claim.

Can you point at a specific screen/manufacturer that claims their is no
image retention on their units?

Furthermore, does that claim apply to the LCD units being stocked and
blown out in the major electronics outlets today? Or just to select
models or models of a specific heritage... ie should the buyer still
beware... or is it simply a non-issue with any and every unit one is
likely to find in a store today?

I don't see your point. The apple web site you referenced advises that any
LCD burn in is temporary.
To quote:
"However, unlike monitors with a cathode-ray tube (CRT), an LCD panel
recovers over time and eventually dissipates the image." In other words the
display is not damaged. Big difference there don't you think?

The other study you referenced refers to TI funded research where LCD front
projectors were intentionally pushed way beyond what would normally be
experienced in a typical home setting. . It's true that the LCD panels
experienced a color shift over time. However that isn't burn in. I don't
know that anyone can say for certain that over a 10 year period a RP LCD
HDTV will experience image deterioration greater than DLP.

Ed

In article ,
says...

"42" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
In article ,
says...
42 wrote in news:[email protected]:

You can't burn an LCD - it's a passive technology.


Yes. You can.

Its usually called 'image retention', buts its effectively the same
thing. Fortunately, with LCD it is usually, but *not* always reversible
with time.

Modern LCDs don't burn it in anymore... You'll be hard pressed to find
one
that suffers from this phenomena.

I've seen it happen enough to be cautious. No offense intended, but I
have been unable to verify that claim.

Can you point at a specific screen/manufacturer that claims their is no
image retention on their units?

Furthermore, does that claim apply to the LCD units being stocked and
blown out in the major electronics outlets today? Or just to select
models or models of a specific heritage... ie should the buyer still
beware... or is it simply a non-issue with any and every unit one is
likely to find in a store today?

I don't see your point. The apple web site you referenced advises that any
LCD burn in is temporary.

You didn't have to go to the website for that, I said myself that it was
almost always temporary.

To quote:
"However, unlike monitors with a cathode-ray tube (CRT), an LCD panel
recovers over time and eventually dissipates the image." In other words the
display is not damaged. Big difference there don't you think?

Big difference from what? I started out by saying that it was almost
always reversible, so its confirming what I said. And is temporary burn
in a problem? I'd say 'yes'.

If I play PS2 for 5 hours, I don't want ghosts of the health bars on my
screen during the movie I watch afterwards. And should I fall asleep in
front of it, and leave something up for 8 - 10 hours, that could cause
artifacts to persist throughout the following day...

I don't want network logos, cnns headline bar, etc to persist into the
next thing I do with it. Its a big plus that its temporary, but its
still a potential problem.

The other study you referenced refers to TI funded research where LCD front
projectors were intentionally pushed way beyond what would normally be
experienced in a typical home setting.

That link was provided specifically with respect to LCDs heat
vulnerabilities.

If you google around, you can see recommendations to reduce brightness
when playing video games to help reduce burn-in and/or image retention.

Permanent burn in can occur when a static image is being displayed *and*
their is too much heat. (Reducing brightness reduces heat), and even
temporary image retention is reduced with lower brightness.

It's true that the LCD panels
experienced a color shift over time. However that isn't burn in.

I don't
know that anyone can say for certain that over a 10 year period a RP LCD
HDTV will experience image deterioration greater than DLP.

With respect to burn in, barring the event where excessive heat and a
static image cause permanent damage, yes.

However, if we're just talking straight 'image deterioration'. LCDs do
have additional failure modes (single line failures, pixel failures, and
other defects that DLP has yet to show any equivalence of (at least to
my knowledge). LCD panel failure is the number one reason my older
laptops get retired. They are non-reparable and exceedingly expensive to
replace.

DLPs -may- suffer from parallel issues, but so far I don't know of any.
(Plasma of course suffers from comparatively permanent burn in, along
with a 'fade over time' issue which makes it the worst for longevity.)

42 wrote in news:[email protected]:

LCD panel failure is the number one reason my older
laptops get retired. They are non-reparable and exceedingly expensive to
replace.


LCD Panel failure on a laptop is often due to a blown back light - or a
lose monitor connection. However, with RPTVs, the black light is a bulb and
can be self replaced for ~200.00 (For example, Sony advertises replacement
bulbs right beside their RPTVs). As for the actual LCD array failing, that
is quite rare.

One also has to remember that LCD RPTV LCD arrays are very tiny - only a
couple inches large. They're not as big as a laptop LCD display and are
incase inside the TV which reduces the chance of physical damage.

--
Lucas Tam )
Please delete "REMOVE" from the e-mail address when replying.
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/coolspot18/

In article ,
says...
42 wrote in news:[email protected]:

LCD panel failure is the number one reason my older
laptops get retired. They are non-reparable and exceedingly expensive to
replace.


LCD Panel failure on a laptop is often due to a blown back light - or a
lose monitor connection.

Both of which are easy repairs and usually not expensive. One can pick
up a backlight on ebay or other laptop repair sites laptop panels pretty
cheaply. These are *not* the problems that retire my old laptops. Line
failures/multiline failures are usually the death knell as I can
tolerate a few dead pixels on an old laptop... but not 4 blue stripes or
a black rectangle.

For a TV though, I'd be less tolerant of a dead pixel I think. A laptop
is for getting something done... I can put up with a dead pixel to get
something done... A tv is for my viewing pleasure... a dead pixel
detracts from that considerably. Particularly if it sticks
blue/red/green instead of black.

However, with RPTVs, the black light is a bulb and
can be self replaced for ~200.00 (For example, Sony advertises replacement
bulbs right beside their RPTVs). As for the actual LCD array failing, that
is quite rare.

Would you like to see my pile of failed LCD arrays? Of all the laptops
I've worked with, one retired due to the motherboard frying, the rest
are all failed lcd panels.

One also has to remember that LCD RPTV LCD arrays are very tiny - only a
couple inches large. They're not as big as a laptop LCD display and are
incase inside the TV which reduces the chance of physical damage.

Absolutely true. Hopefully your LCD RPTV will not be exposed to the
jostling and what not else that our laptops put up with. :)

Unfortunately, I'm not convinced the LCD panel inside your RPTV is as
ruggedly made as the one in your laptop precisely because of that line
of reasoning.