One project which is growing and growing [long]
 

Hi,

all I did was buy an STB to pay with :-(

Now I need to upgrade my aerial to a Band E to get all the muxes and still
be able to receive analogue.

I should also really upgrade my DIY distribution system (which I thought
was reasonably O.K. until I started reading this NG) so that a decent
signal is preserved to the 'point of delivery'. I currently have a
Telecraft amp/splitter in the loft with push connectors. The coax is nice
brown budget stuff.

I have 2 TV aerials on one long pole on the chimney (one dedicated to the
lounge, the other leading into the loft for distribution) and a circular
FM aerial between the two. The signal to the lounge (oldest aerial I
suspect) is pretty poor. The plan is to make the current TV aerials
redundant. I don't want to touch them because they are on a scary high
part of the house. I am repairing some render on another chimney, so I can
work from the scaffolding to safely install a brand new aerial.

I have 4 bedrooms, an office, and 3 downstairs rooms.

- 3 of theses (lounge, kitchen, my bedroom) have TV and FM radio feeds.

- 1 bedroom has a TV feed.

- 1 bedroom had the TV feed removed on redecoration (at the occupants
request) to remove the temptation to veg. out in the bedroom with the TV
all the time (sensible girl).

- 1 bedroom and the dining room have aerial sockets but the aerial (3rd
one) is no longer on the roof because the weather vane is down for long
term overhaul and the aerial was on the same pole. Naff cheapo aerial
anyway.

- No aerial to the office (which saves me from buying a DTV card for the
PC).

Now to do the job properly I should set up a new distribution system using
CT100 cable, and F type connectors, and do all the rooms so that the
disruption only occurs once, and all rooms are enabled for TV (digital and
analogue) and FM radio.

I am assuming that the rough design should be (from previous threads):

(1) High gain Band E aerial.
(2) Masthead amp
(3) Powered distribution system with 'F' type connectors.
(4) Bill's homemade wall boxes with 'F' type connectors
(5) Fly lead with 'F' type connectors and an 'F' to Belling Lee adapter.

Question: if you have a distribution amp in the loft do you need a
masthead amp as well?

************************************************** **

Now for the component count :-(

'F' type connectors

1 * aerial downlead to distribution amp
8 * output from distribution amp
8 * entry to room (screws to inside of backplate)
8 * flylead (wall end)
8 * flylead (TV end)

That comes to 33 'F' types.

8 * barrel connectors (for wall plates)
8 * Belling Lee adapters

One quite large distribution amp (one in, 8 out) - is this sensible?

[Presumably cheaper than 2 * aerials on long pole plus 2 * 4 port
distribution amps (as long as you can get the signal O.K. split 8 ways).]

Then all the above distribution side again if I decide to upgrade and
extend the FM radio aerial feed


Masthead amp
Power supply
Chimney clamps
Pole (2" by 6'?)
High gain Band E aerial.

I can spread the hassle and expense to a certain extent by installing the
new aerial and just doing one room at a time but if I am going to get a
new distribution amp then I have to size it for future load.

All this is going to cost the best part of a tidy piece and make the money
spent on the STB look trivial.

However I should get a much better TV analogue reception plus be digital
enabled for the future.

Minimum work (with cowboy hat firmly on head and spurs ajinglin') is to
fit new aerial and connect into existing (naff) distribution system. If
this gives acceptable DTV then the lounge needs to be brought into the new
system as that is where the AV stuff is. This would be CT100 downlead but
still using the old distribution amp. with push connectors.

Oh, and I'm not sure how good the 802.11b reception will be in the
lounge (my STB is a BT Digital TV Adapter with USB connection for
networking and email/web browsing etc.) so I also may have to consider
installing another Wireless Access Point or running a dedicated UTP cable
down to the lounge and buying a USB Ethernet card. Otherwise I can't play
..mp3 files from my server through the AV amp.

Why can't life be simple?

Cheers

Dave R

Question: if you have a distribution amp in the loft do you need a
masthead amp as well?


If you need a masthead amp then you need one to feed a distn. amp. That's
unless signal levels are only a little bit on the poor side, and you can fit
the distn amp v. close to the aerial, and the distn. amp has a lot of gain to
each port.
Distn. amps are best when given a decent signal level. They do generate noise
after all.

Don't forget to put your cables in for in-house channels (Sky distribution,
cameras, etc).

If the cable runs are short and if putting new downleads in is a big problem I
suggest you measure the loss on each cable before you replace it. I'm not a
believer in re-using old cable but sometimes we have to be practical.

Why can't life be simple?


Don't you think we make our lives complicated, then complain when it suddenly
seems a bit TOO complicated? I'm speaking as a man who habitually takes on the
most horrifically difficult DIY projects and then spends the next two years
thinking that his life has been taken over by it.

Bill

"David WE Roberts" wrote
| That comes to 33 'F' types.
| 8 * barrel connectors (for wall plates)
| 8 * Belling Lee adapters
| One quite large distribution amp (one in, 8 out) - is this sensible?
| [Presumably cheaper than 2 * aerials on long pole plus 2 * 4 port
| distribution amps (as long as you can get the signal O.K. split 8 ways).]
| Then all the above distribution side again if I decide to upgrade and
| extend the FM radio aerial feed

Bill might say otherwise, but you can probably put the VHF through the same
amp, cabling and outlets as the UHF.

| Oh, and I'm not sure how good the 802.11b reception will be in
| the lounge

I was going to suggest you run some Ethernet cables at the same time anyway.
If you are doing the whole lot do 2 x CT100 and 2 x Cat5e from each room
(extra at the lounge for back-haul) back to the loft. Then you can do phone,
ethernet, telly, etc.

The spare cable need not be terminated right now, just coil up neatly behind
some furniture.

Owain

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 22:01:02 +0000, Owain wrote:

snip
| Oh, and I'm not sure how good the 802.11b reception will be in
| the lounge

I was going to suggest you run some Ethernet cables at the same time anyway.
If you are doing the whole lot do 2 x CT100 and 2 x Cat5e from each room
(extra at the lounge for back-haul) back to the loft. Then you can do phone,
ethernet, telly, etc.

The spare cable need not be terminated right now, just coil up neatly behind
some furniture.

Kind of goes against the plan of using 802.11b to avoid having to run
LAN cables everywhere.

We are also kitted out with DECT phones so don't need any phone wires.

Certainly don't need to run the Cat5E to most of the rooms (i.e. none of
the upstairs nor one side of the downstairs).

It just so happens that the location of Cinema 1 is diagonally opposite to
the location of the wireless router for the green network. I could
probably get onto the wireless DMZ O.K. but I want to open up my
main server to provide 'ftp' to the BT Adapter and would prefer to keep
this away from the DMZ (although the NAT firewall should protect from most
intrusions apart from seriously good war drivers hacking into my public AP).

I am not currently considering distributing anything around the house -
with DVD players at £29.99 each TV can have one if it wants. Much the
same for STBs. If people are watching the same programme they are usually
in the same room. Only Cinema 1 has the true surround sound experience.

I guess I was reflecting more on the ads which tell you that for £50 you
can have the new digital TV experience.

O.K. we are in a very marginal reception area (i.e. the lists say we don't
have reception but I can get the muxes which match my current aerial) and
we need a new aerial with a much wider band coverage to get all the muxes.

Once you start down that route then 20 years of uninformed cable hackery
suddenly needs replacing all at once.

I have a feeling that an 8 port distribution amp isn't going to be cheap
either.

When you add up all the minor components it is like being nibbled to death
by small but very determined mice :-(

Cheers

Dave R

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 22:40:05 +0000, David WE Roberts
wrote:

I have a feeling that an 8 port distribution amp isn't going to be cheap
either.

It's not necessarily expensive. For example, Taylor Bros. do one for £11.95.
I can't vouch for its quality, but with a decent input signal it ought to
do a reasonable job. It has 'only' 2dB of gain per output which is more
or less what you want from a DA, unlike those contraptions you get in
most DIY sheds.

It's not necessarily expensive. For example, Taylor Bros. do one for £11.95.

I can. We use a lot of TS2008s and they are very good.

Bill

Bill might say otherwise, but you can probably put the VHF through the same
amp, cabling and outlets as the UHF.

Just be aware of possible out-of-band signals that might get in via the FM or
DAB aerial.

Bill

On 18 Nov 2004 04:02:50 GMT, Bill wrote:

It's not necessarily expensive. For example, Taylor Bros. do one for £11.95.

I can. We use a lot of TS2008s and they are very good.

Thanks, I thought they would be. Are the 2004s as good as well?

The only trouble is that the delivery charge almost comes to the same
price as the amp. and the last time I spoke to them there was a month's
wait for delivery :-(

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 23:59:45 +0000, Paul Ratcliffe wrote:

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 22:40:05 +0000, David WE Roberts
wrote:

I have a feeling that an 8 port distribution amp isn't going to be cheap
either.

It's not necessarily expensive. For example, Taylor Bros. do one for £11.95.
I can't vouch for its quality, but with a decent input signal it ought to
do a reasonable job. It has 'only' 2dB of gain per output which is more
or less what you want from a DA, unlike those contraptions you get in
most DIY sheds.

Hmmm....Google shows http://www.taylorbros-uk.com/html/HOME.html but these
seem to be installers.

Do you have an online source for these components?

http://www.powerstrip.co.uk/html/taylor_bros.html is under construction,
but the Google blurb is roughly
"TS2004. 4 way UHF Amp. 470-860. 2dB. 22dBmV. 2db. £27.57. TS2008.
8 way UHF Amp. 470-860. 2dB. 22dBmV. 2db. £36.78."
which is a bit more than £11.95.

Cheers

Dave R

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:28:07 +0000, David WE Roberts
wrote:

It's not necessarily expensive. For example, Taylor Bros. do one for £11.95.
I can't vouch for its quality, but with a decent input signal it ought to
do a reasonable job. It has 'only' 2dB of gain per output which is more
or less what you want from a DA, unlike those contraptions you get in
most DIY sheds.

Do you have an online source for these components?

http://www.taylorbros.co.uk/PDF%20PA...2-12%20WEB.pdf

Prices are VAT (and postage) exclusive.

http://www.powerstrip.co.uk/html/taylor_bros.html is under construction,
but the Google blurb is roughly
"TS2004. 4 way UHF Amp. 470-860. 2dB. 22dBmV. 2db. £27.57. TS2008.
8 way UHF Amp. 470-860. 2dB. 22dBmV. 2db. £36.78."
which is a bit more than £11.95.

Don't know what all this is - Google's cache gave me the same page as the
live site.

The TS2004 actually has 6 to 8dB gain on each output. Taylors just can't be
bothered to alter the paperwork (this is true, I have it from the horse's
mouth).

I'm not interested in selling stuff on here, but rather than see anyone pay £25
for a TS2008 if you want one send me a cheque for £15 (including VAT and jiffy
bag and stamps) and I'll send you one.

They're beginning to seem a bit old fashioned now, using Belling plugs.

I really don't know how they turn 'em out at that price. They are really good.
They used to be about £23 and then about four years ago the price suddenly
dropped to £8.95. Immediately suspicious I bought some at the new price and
dismantled one expecting to see some horrible cheap bought-in insides, but
nothing had changed.

Incidentally, while I'm rambling on I'll tell you about Mike Rae. He is the
mastermind behind Taylor Bros. He is one of the few people in this country who
can talk sense about RF distribution systems, and he is immensely knowledgable
about all aspects of RF. A technical query to most manufacturers and importers
usually ends with me thinking, "Well, that was a waste of time, the bloke
doesn't know the first thing about the products he's selling" but not so with
Mike. He knows his products inside out, and so he should because he designed a
lot of them.

Having written the above, I must ask you not to ring Mike up with 'domestic'
type questions. He is ever so busy. Pester this newsgroup instead!

Bill

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:24:08 +0000, Paul Ratcliffe wrote:

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:28:07 +0000, David WE Roberts
wrote:

It's not necessarily expensive. For example, Taylor Bros. do one for £11.95.
I can't vouch for its quality, but with a decent input signal it ought to
do a reasonable job. It has 'only' 2dB of gain per output which is more
or less what you want from a DA, unlike those contraptions you get in
most DIY sheds.

Do you have an online source for these components?

http://www.taylorbros.co.uk/PDF%20PA...2-12%20WEB.pdf

Prices are VAT (and postage) exclusive.

http://www.powerstrip.co.uk/html/taylor_bros.html is under construction,
but the Google blurb is roughly
"TS2004. 4 way UHF Amp. 470-860. 2dB. 22dBmV. 2db. £27.57. TS2008.
8 way UHF Amp. 470-860. 2dB. 22dBmV. 2db. £36.78."
which is a bit more than £11.95.

Don't know what all this is - Google's cache gave me the same page as the
live site.

This is probably the markup Powerstrip put on the Taylor Bros. product.

Thanks for the link - I am slowly getting there :-)

Next step is the ordering and waiting for the deliveries.

Just hope the weather improves a bit for when I am up on the roof!

Cheers

Dave R

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:24:44 +0000, Bill wrote:

The TS2004 actually has 6 to 8dB gain on each output. Taylors just can't be
bothered to alter the paperwork (this is true, I have it from the horse's
mouth).

I'm not interested in selling stuff on here, but rather than see anyone pay £25
for a TS2008 if you want one send me a cheque for £15 (including VAT and jiffy
bag and stamps) and I'll send you one.
snip
Having written the above, I must ask you not to ring Mike up with 'domestic'
type questions. He is ever so busy. Pester this newsgroup instead!

Bill

Many thanks for the kind offer.

I think I am O.K. because another poster has pointed me to the correct
part of the web site.

If there are any major problems with lead time I may take you up on it,
but I will try and buy from the manufacturer and not bother you.

Pestering this news group is very productive - I may yet learn to install
a proper setup.

Cheers

Dave R

Just hope the weather improves a bit for when I am up on the roof!



If we don't hear anything we'll assume the worst.. .

Bill

"Bill" wrote in message
...
Question: if you have a distribution amp in the loft do you need a
masthead amp as well?


If you need a masthead amp then you need one to feed a distn. amp. That's
unless signal levels are only a little bit on the poor side, and you can
fit
the distn amp v. close to the aerial, and the distn. amp has a lot of gain
to
each port.
Distn. amps are best when given a decent signal level. They do generate
noise
after all.
snip

Just looking at masthead amps.

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...66663&id=86641

This is a masthead amp with two downleads.

So this prompts yet another question :-)

Is it better to split the signal at the masthead into two, then have 2 * 4
port distribution amps, or is it better to stick with the 1 * 8 port amp?

This (I presume) depends of the difference in signal degradation from an 8
port amp and a 4 port amp offset against the loss (or noise gain) at the
masthead by splitting there.

Also, having one distribution amp on each side of the house would reduce the
length of the downleads by a loft width for half the house (although
requiring a longer downlead from the aerial to one of the distribution amps.

I am probably overthinking all this by now (note I haven't asked about the
colour the cable should be yet) but this is a "do once to last 10 or more
years" project.

Also, the amp from Screwfix is not a Maxview as recommended by Bill, so I am
not thinking of buying this specific one. It just raised the question of
splitting within the masthead amp.

In addition, a split at the masthead gives the option of a dedicated feed to
one location (e.g. PC) and then distribution of the other feed.

Cheers

Dave R

I suggest you fit a fully screened low noise low gain masthead amp with one
output, and feed an eight way distribution amp. The latter should be situated
reasonably centrally in the property. If you use two distribution amps you will
have problems adding in-house channels, and anyway it increases the chances of
something failing.

When did I recommend Maxview? I haven't got anything against them, but as it
happens I don't use their masthead amps. Their TETRA filters work very well by
the way.

Bill

David WE Roberts wrote in message .. .

Kind of goes against the plan of using 802.11b to avoid having to run
LAN cables everywhere.

We are also kitted out with DECT phones so don't need any phone wires.

If you're happy with a network much slower than the wired equivalent,
which won't neccessarily get along with DECT phones anyway, or indeed
microwave ovens...

"Alex Bird" wrote in message
om...
David WE Roberts wrote in message
.. .

Kind of goes against the plan of using 802.11b to avoid having to run
LAN cables everywhere.

We are also kitted out with DECT phones so don't need any phone wires.

If you're happy with a network much slower than the wired equivalent,
which won't neccessarily get along with DECT phones anyway, or indeed
microwave ovens...

The UK DECT phones use a different frequency from 802.11b.

It is the US DECT phones which can overlap.

Quite happy with the network performance, thank you.

[Although the microwave isn't browsing very well at the moment.]

The (well short of) 11Mb/sec from 802.11b will still outperform the 512k
available over broadband.

If I need high bandwidth between PCs I put them on the wired LAN in the
office - although I don't recall ever needing anywhere near 100 Mb/sec
between PCs.

Wireless networking in the home is pretty damn good - as are wireless
phones.

despairing rant
I sometimes wonder why people complain abut wireless networking "not being
as fast as....".
It is fast enough for the services I want to use over it, and far superior
to dial up or having to be wired up to a fixed point.
I can use my portable in the garden, or the kitchen (like now).
My next door neighbour is sharing my broadband link over wireless - and much
more easily than trying to wire his house up with a LAN connected to my
house.
Why would I want to wire my house up if I don't need to?
Wiring up a new distribution system for a new TV aerial is turning into a
major project (getting back on topic).
Using 802.11b involves plugging in a wireless router and a bit of
configuration - not running wires in walls, fitting wall plates, making up
leads, etc.
It is easy to implement, and quite fast enough for my needs.
Why would I NOT want to use it????
/despairing rant

Hmph!

Dave R

"Bill" wrote in message
...
I suggest you fit a fully screened low noise low gain masthead amp with
one
output, and feed an eight way distribution amp. The latter should be
situated
reasonably centrally in the property. If you use two distribution amps you
will
have problems adding in-house channels, and anyway it increases the
chances of
something failing.

When did I recommend Maxview? I haven't got anything against them, but as
it
happens I don't use their masthead amps. Their TETRA filters work very
well by
the way.

Bill

Try http://tinyurl.com/598d3 :-)

You did use the words "such as" so it wasn't a specific recommendation.

Cheers

Dave R

You did use the words "such as" so it wasn't a specific recommendation.

Cheers

Dave R

Yes, well that's how it felt. I'm aware that just because I mostly use Labgear
I shouldn't behave on here as if they are the only good amps, and since several
people I know rate the new Maxview products I thought it was reasonable to
mention them.

There is a general problem here. Although I try to keep an eye on new products
from manufacturers I don't often deal with (even buying and testing samples
sometimes) the common sense thing is to find products that do what they say on
the tin and stick with them for the appropriate applications. This has the
advantages of familiarity, easier stock control, and so on. So it's all to easy
to recommend one particular make because that's the one you happen to use.

Bill

Bill

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 16:34:20 -0000, "David W.E. Roberts"
wrote:


/despairing rant

I'm with you all the way.

--=20
ff