"Dave Farrance" wrote in message
...
"Commander Q" wrote:

Now the freesat thing seems like a good deal, but it seems that for my 20
quid all i'm really getting extra is itv1 / ch4 / ch5 - but no ITV2. (i've
read elsewhere that ITV 2/3 might get pulled from sky anyway??)

ITV2/3 might get shifted to a satellite not owned by Sky, but it'll
still be possible to pick them up with the Sky box.

Err - Sky don't own the satellites that Sky, ITV or the BBC currently use -
SES, based in Luxembourg do. They own Astras 2A,B, D etc.

The BBC and ITV already use Astra 2D - which has beams that are narrowly
aimed at the UK.

Neither the BBC nor ITV are uplinked via Sky facilities - nor have they ever
been. ITV use NTL, the BBC used to as well I believe - though now uplink
themselves. Sky provide ITV with encryption, but this is not the same as
uplinking or owning the satellites.

ITV could chose not to renew their encryption deal with Sky when it comes up
for renewal, but they wouldn't have to shift off Astra 2D, in fact they've
just leased 2 more transponders from SES in addition to their current 3, to
allow for more regions/interactive services I believe.

Additionally there is a satellite, Eurobird, located very close to the Astra
2 slot - and this carries some additional services that are in the Sky
digital EPG.

Steve

"Mike Jones" wrote in message
...

"Commander Q" wrote in message
...
Now then...

I need to decide between these two services, and need some advice...

snip


Why not have both ?

Yep - a very sensible suggestion. Then you can watch one service whilst
recording the other - and both will deliver 16:9 images for the main
networks. (The main reason I own a Freeview box is so that I can watch the
main channels in 16:9 when I am recording from DSat - it was cheaper than a
second Sky box, a multiple-output LNB, and extra cabling and holes in the
wall)

Steve

"Stephen Neal" wrote:

Err - Sky don't own the satellites that Sky, ITV or the BBC currently use -
SES, based in Luxembourg do. They own Astras 2A,B, D etc.
The BBC and ITV already use Astra 2D - which has beams that are narrowly
aimed at the UK.

Neither the BBC nor ITV are uplinked via Sky facilities - nor have they ever
been. ITV use NTL, the BBC used to as well I believe - though now uplink
themselves. Sky provide ITV with encryption, but this is not the same as
uplinking or owning the satellites.

OK, thanks for that.

So the only thing that ITV & C4 _need_ to negotiate with Sky to get
their channels picked up by Sky boxes is an entry in Sky's EPG. I had
been under the impression that Sky were imposing the encryption on them
to offset the transmission costs via the money gained from the "Free to
View" card. But if Sky aren't providing any services other than
encryption, then that's obviously not the case. So I do wonder why the
heck ITV & C4 want to be encrypted in the first place, given that their
terrestrial broadcasts aren't encrypted.

--
Dave Farrance

Dave Farrance wrote:
: encryption, then that's obviously not the case. So I do wonder why the
: heck ITV & C4 want to be encrypted in the first place, given that their
: terrestrial broadcasts aren't encrypted.

Because they get charged much more for some (mostly US) programmes if they
broadcast them more widely than the UK! Despite the BBC's claim that Astra
2D has a "tight beam confined to the UK" this is a fictional statement -
most of Northern Europe (and beyond) can pick up the transmissions (with
varying difficulty).

Dave Farrance wrote:
So I do wonder why the
heck ITV & C4 want to be encrypted in the first place, given that their
terrestrial broadcasts aren't encrypted.


Primarily, programming rights. Terrestrial broadcasts are more or less
only receivable within the UK, D-Sat broadcasts are receivable over a
large chunk of Western Europe. Their programming rights only allow
for viewing within the UK, therefore the rights holders will not
allow the material to be viewed abroad without extra payments.

The Beeb seem to have either convinced rights holders that there
is no significant 'spillage', or they are paying extra.

If the cost of encryption exceeds that of extra rights charges, then
ITV, 4 and 5 would ditch it. Although there is the extra factor
for ITV-1 and C4 of regional EPG mapping, I'm not sure if that
is 'bundled' in with the encryption charges or not. It is
rumoured the Beeb are paying a small fortune for this with Sky.

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 18:58:11 -0000, "Commander Q"
wrote:

Now then...


Go with Sky. At the end of the day it'll only cost you £20 and the
lack of ITV2 is probably a blessing in disguise!

Freeview will cost you at least £40, assuming you don't need a aerial
upgrade which is a high price just to get ITV2.

There is a possibility that ITV2 may come to FreeSat in the near
future anyway.

sPoNiX

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 20:13:09 GMT, Dave Farrance
wrote:

Yes, you can get ITV1/2/3 on Freeview. I'd say go for Freeview so that
you don't give another £20 of your hard-earned cash to that billionaire
*******, but that's just my opinion.

Murdoch does NOT own Sky!

sPoNiX wrote:

Murdoch does NOT own Sky!


But he DOES make some of his income from it and has been doing it for
longer then some of the shareholders in the operation. It'll be also
very hard to take it from his ultimate control. So yes, it's 'owned'.

The OP should just get a £20 card from Sky. ITV2 will turn up somewhere
on this system before long, and other services (radio) are superior than
the channel limited freeview options.

Although a freeview nut, the £20 deal is encoraging me to find someone's
discarded sky digital system mainly for the radio stuff.

--

Adrian C

"Stephen Neal" (The main reason I own a Freeview box is so that I can watch
the
main channels in 16:9 when I am recording from DSat - it was cheaper than
a second Sky box, a multiple-output LNB, and extra cabling and holes in
the wall)

Steve

The very reason I have both although I have yet to stump up the £20 to Sky

"Dave Farrance" wrote in message
...
"Stephen Neal" wrote:

Err - Sky don't own the satellites that Sky, ITV or the BBC currently
use -
SES, based in Luxembourg do. They own Astras 2A,B, D etc.
The BBC and ITV already use Astra 2D - which has beams that are narrowly
aimed at the UK.

Neither the BBC nor ITV are uplinked via Sky facilities - nor have they
ever
been. ITV use NTL, the BBC used to as well I believe - though now uplink
themselves. Sky provide ITV with encryption, but this is not the same as
uplinking or owning the satellites.

OK, thanks for that.

So the only thing that ITV & C4 _need_ to negotiate with Sky to get
their channels picked up by Sky boxes is an entry in Sky's EPG.

Well - they would probably want a "regionalisation" deal - which means that
Sky viewing card users get their ITV1 region on 103 and their C4 region
(yep - C4 has different ad breaks around the country) on 104 (or whatever
channel it is on in Wales?) The advertisers would be pretty unhappy if
satellite viewers didn't see the correct regional feed as they pay for
regional ads...

The BBC have a deal for both EPG entry (which is OfCom regulated) and
regionalisation via cards.

Cardless Sky boxes get BBC One London on 101 and BBC Two England on 102 -
the other regional feeds are in the 900s. I guess ITV1 and C4 would have to
work similarly if they went FTA?

I had
been under the impression that Sky were imposing the encryption on them
to offset the transmission costs via the money gained from the "Free to
View" card.

Nope - the BBC used to subsidise the old FTV cards (meaning they were
free) - Sky are now charging £20 for them.

AIUI ITV2 is pay-TV on Sky Digital, and this may mean ITV get a small income
from Sky for carriage, which may offset ITVs encryption/EPG carriage costs.

But if Sky aren't providing any services other than
encryption, then that's obviously not the case. So I do wonder why the
heck ITV & C4 want to be encrypted in the first place, given that their
terrestrial broadcasts aren't encrypted.


Their terrestrial services are pretty much confined to reception in the UK -
satellite broadcasts are receivable over a much wider area. Rights holders
(i.e. the people who sell broadcasters programmes, or rights to show events
like sports) are pretty hot on "out of region" viewing - especially for
English language shows - so encryption (which restricts viewing to valid
card holders, who should be within the country the channels are broadcast
to) keeps out of region viewing down.

The BBC moved from Astra 2A or 2B - which had wide beams covering most of
Europe with a high signal strength (meaning a small dish could pick up the
signals) to Astra 2D (which is more tightly aimed at the UK and Ireland)
which has meant much larger dishes are required in Southern and Eastern
Europe to receive BBC stuff - though of course Northern France is pretty
much unchanged and can still use small dishes. ITV has always been on 2D -
though I'm not sure if their beam is as tight - suspect it is. So ITV could
conceivably follow the BBC and go FTA - though whether the amount paid to
Sky for encryption is more than the amount they'd need to pay for
regionalisation AND extra programme rights (if these are required) may mean
it isn't cost effective - though there is also the issue about whether
freeing themselves from Sky encryption may be a politically sensible thing
to do. (It would allow non-Sky FTA receivers to be more saleable -
increasing digital uptake?)

C4 are still carried on Astra 2A or 2B I think - so would need to
renegotiate carriage deals with SES/Astra to move to 2D - and I think
they've recently signed a deal with Sky. They are more closely linked as C4
also run FilmFour and E4 - both of which are encrypted
subscription-services.

Steve