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SKY FREE TO VIEW CARD ON EBAY
Sky had a crack down on their cards been sold on Ebay a while ago and made
Ebay remove the Sky card listings. After all people are selling something that isn't theirs to sell. |
David wrote:
I know subscription cards belong to Sky, is it not the same with the Free ITV etc. ones? That's what it says on the back. And it should be remembered that many (most? all?) cards being sold on Ebay as "FTV" are in fact just expired sub cards. From time to time Sky have had Ebay remove all Sky card auctions. -- Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these. The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/yvnsy How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73 Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/ BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/ ---- Only the truth as I see it. No monies return'd. ;-) |
"Nigel Barker" wrote in message ... The free Solus card scheme & the Fee2view 23.50GBP cards involved no such contract so are the property of the owner. By owner do you mean the user or issuer? I've just looked at my old "BBC" free to view card that was issued to me free. It says on it 'This card is the property of Sky Subscription Services......' -- Regards, David Please reply to News Group. |
On Mon, 10 May 2004 23:00:57 +0100, "Phil" wrote:
Sky had a crack down on their cards been sold on Ebay a while ago and made Ebay remove the Sky card listings. After all people are selling something that isn't theirs to sell. Only if it's an expired Sky subscription card that they actually signed a contract for. The free Solus card scheme & the Fee2view 23.50GBP cards involved no such contract so are the property of the owner. -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur |
On Tue, 11 May 2004 07:40:33 GMT, Nigel Barker wrote:
On Mon, 10 May 2004 23:00:57 +0100, "Phil" wrote: Sky had a crack down on their cards been sold on Ebay a while ago and made Ebay remove the Sky card listings. After all people are selling something that isn't theirs to sell. Only if it's an expired Sky subscription card that they actually signed a contract for. The free Solus card scheme & the Fee2view 23.50GBP cards involved no such contract so are the property of the owner. Wording on above issue card: "This card is the property of Sky Subscribers Services Ltd and must be returned upon request" ++ You have not bought the card, simply a licence to use it, which can be terminated. -- Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com |
On Tue, 11 May 2004 10:05:25 +0200, Jim Watt wrote:
On Tue, 11 May 2004 07:40:33 GMT, Nigel Barker wrote: On Mon, 10 May 2004 23:00:57 +0100, "Phil" wrote: Sky had a crack down on their cards been sold on Ebay a while ago and made Ebay remove the Sky card listings. After all people are selling something that isn't theirs to sell. Only if it's an expired Sky subscription card that they actually signed a contract for. The free Solus card scheme & the Fee2view 23.50GBP cards involved no such contract so are the property of the owner. Wording on above issue card: "This card is the property of Sky Subscribers Services Ltd and must be returned upon request" ++ You have not bought the card, simply a licence to use it, which can be terminated. I haven't bought any FTV cards they were given to me by the people operating the BBC Solus card line. If they had wanted to enforce the Sky ownership of the card the simple answer was to have the standard notice on the packing on various bits of software that by opening the package you agree to the following license. Even a letter saying this would have been sufficient. There was not with the FTV cards that I have. I am sure that it was an oversight & doubtless any future FTV card scheme will make it clear that card is not your property. -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur |
In article ,
Nigel Barker wrote: Only if it's an expired Sky subscription card that they actually signed a contract for. The free Solus card scheme & the Fee2view 23.50GBP cards involved no such contract so are the property of the owner. There was no contract with the Solus card because there was no consideration. There is a clear implied contract with the Free2view 23.50GBP and there is consideration - GBP23-50 of consideration. The two are not the same. Don't ask me about Pout cards (of which I have a number) for which, again, there was no consideration - at least not in my case. |
On Wed, 12 May 2004 22:29:58 +0000 (UTC),
(Charles Ellson) wrote: In article _way "Jim Watt" writes: On Tue, 11 May 2004 19:12:13 +0000 (UTC), (Charles Ellson) wrote: And if that wasn't brought to your attention when you asked for the card (i.e. _before_ the supply was agreed), Ownership of the card has never been transferred. If it was not notified to the purchaser that the card was on loan, then it has been sold and ownership transferred. Where the card was supplied in conjunction with the supply of a DigiBox and/or satellite services it was possibly in the contract, but if it was done over the telephone then the detail of who owns the card was IME not discussed, and therefore cannot be enforced retrospectively. You have purchased a non transferable licence to use it and its use can be terminated in the event that the terms under which its supplied are infringed. If the terms were properly brought to the attention of the purchaser before the purchase was agreed. You cannot sell by retail to someone and then impose additional terms later. snip Listen very carefully for I shall say this only once; One party offers a service. The service is governed by terms and conditions supplied to the second party with a card clearly marked and an explanation of the deal written in plain English. The second party accepts the offer by using the card. Money changes hands. Is there a contract? Yes. In practice what can the card issuer do if the terms are broken? Turn the card off. What can someone who has bought a card from the original party do? bugger all. Nobody ever bought the card, its internal codes etc etc just a licence to use it. When you buy a record you have not bought the music on it, just the right to listen to it yourself. Its similar except you can sell it. 'as is' Has anyone ever explained that to you in the store? If you fail to read the words on the CD that say "unauthorised copying, hiring, public performances and broadcasting of this record prohibited' does that give you the right to do all those things? No The difference is that in the case of the smart card Ruperts men can turn it off and its actual value becomes zero. Rather like that Mr Blunkett will be able to turn off your new upcoming ID card and for practical purposes you will cease to exist. Happy dreams. -- Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com |
"Jim Watt" wrote in message ... Rather like that Mr Blunkett will be able to turn off your new upcoming ID card and for practical purposes you will cease to exist. Thanks for that, I now understand some peoples objection to ID cards. -- Regards, David Please reply to News Group. |
On Thu, 13 May 2004 01:24:42 +0200, Jim Watt wrote:
Listen very carefully for I shall say this only once; One party offers a service. The service is governed by terms and conditions supplied to the second party with a card clearly marked and an explanation of the deal written in plain English. The second party accepts the offer by using the card. Money changes hands. Is there a contract? Yes. There is the case where money did not change hands i.e. the original BBC 'Solus' card scheme. These cards were given away to anyone who requested them provided they had a UK address & in fact several could be sent to the same address. There was no contract or even statement of terms of use. It was probably an oversight on the part of the card issuers but that cannot now be undone. If you fail to read the words on the CD that say "unauthorised copying, hiring, public performances and broadcasting of this record prohibited' does that give you the right to do all those things? No No, because those practises are covered by normal copyright law. The physical CD is however yours to sell or does the physical CD forever remain the property of Sony Corp or whoever? You are not allowed to sell photocopies of books that you own either but you can sell the book itself, Rather like that Mr Blunkett will be able to turn off your new upcoming ID card and for practical purposes you will cease to exist. As someone resident in one country where I already possess an ID card but who also maintains a residence in the UK I was wondering how I am to get my UK ID card? Perhaps I should volunteer as one of those first 10,000 trial subjects that they mentioned on the news the other day? Then I can come over & sponge off my fellow Brits by taking advantage of the so-called 'best health service in the world':-) -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur |
On Thu, 13 May 2004 08:16:31 GMT, Nigel Barker wrote:
There is the case where money did not change hands i.e. the original BBC 'Solus' card scheme. These cards were given away to anyone who requested them provided they had a UK address & in fact several could be sent to the same address. There was no contract or even statement of terms of use. It was probably an oversight on the part of the card issuers but that cannot now be undone. Well, those cards are immaterial as they don't work anymore. BUT you are wrong, they carried the same message about ownership and they were issued with a set of terms and conditions restricting their use. Its arguable that there was a contractual relationship in place, I think the answer is yes. As someone resident in one country where I already possess an ID card but who also maintains a residence in the UK I was wondering how I am to get my UK ID card? Perhaps I should volunteer as one of those first 10,000 trial subjects that they mentioned on the news the other day? Then I can come over & sponge off my fellow Brits by taking advantage of the so-called 'best health service in the world':-) Well, I also have an ID card, but its a very different animal to the one Mr Blunkett has up his sleeve. -- Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com |
On Thu, 13 May 2004 18:33:13 +0000 (UTC),
(Charles Ellson) wrote: But which are meaningless under the circumstances where they are not brought to the attention of the purchaser _before_ the sale is agreed. There is no sale, he purchased a non-transferable licence. As to your remedies when the card is turned off you are basically stuffed. Caveat emptor Sue the seller of the card if it doesn't do what he said it would do. Surely not for engaging in an illegal act. Applying 50v across the contacts of your new citizens licence will only terminate the card the problem is the database behind it. -- Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com |
Charles Ellson wrote:
One party offers a service. The service is governed by terms and conditions supplied to the second party But which are meaningless under the circumstances where they are not brought to the attention of the purchaser _before_ the sale is agreed. So no telephone sale can be subject to any special T&Cs? And when there is no "sale" involved, as with the original FTV cards? -- Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these. The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/yvnsy How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73 Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/ BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/ ---- Only the truth as I see it. No monies return'd. ;-) |
Jim Watt wrote:
Well, those cards are immaterial as they don't work anymore. BUT you are wrong, they carried the same message about ownership and they were issued with a set of terms and conditions restricting their use. Its arguable that there was a contractual relationship in place, I think the answer is yes. Yes, the original FTV cards all came with the standard Sky wrapper, complete with all its conditions of use including the one about card ownership. Quite how valid or legal they were/are is another matter. -- Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these. The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/yvnsy How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73 Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/ BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/ ---- Only the truth as I see it. No monies return'd. ;-) |
On Fri, 14 May 2004 05:24:31 GMT, Jomtien wrote:
Yes, the original FTV cards all came with the standard Sky wrapper, complete with all its conditions of use including the one about card ownership. Quite how valid or legal they were/are is another matter. A legal opinion (over lunch) said it (the SOLUS one) was. The terms of use are less restrictive than most software licences - the MS XP EULA in particular. Indeed they have written the current terms and conditions in very plain English. Indeed they even seem to promise a replacement card in the event of a security update. -- Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com |
On Thu, 13 May 2004 20:55:33 +0200, Jim Watt wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2004 08:16:31 GMT, Nigel Barker wrote: There is the case where money did not change hands i.e. the original BBC 'Solus' card scheme. These cards were given away to anyone who requested them provided they had a UK address & in fact several could be sent to the same address. There was no contract or even statement of terms of use. It was probably an oversight on the part of the card issuers but that cannot now be undone. Well, those cards are immaterial as they don't work anymore. Yes, they do. The scheme was not wound up for some months after the introductions of the V2 Sky card. In the last few months all 'Solus' cards were V2. They did not by default replace any V1 cards but if you were smart & saw which way the wind was blowing you called them up said that the V1 card had died & they then sent a V2 replacement. BUT you are wrong, they carried the same message about ownership and they were issued with a set of terms and conditions restricting their use. Its arguable that there was a contractual relationship in place, I think the answer is yes. I think that there was not a contractual relationship because there was no 'consideration' involved as required in law. OTOH I am not a lawyer nor do I aspire to be one:-) Well, I also have an ID card, but its a very different animal to the one Mr Blunkett has up his sleeve. I must be out of touch with the home country but what has he planned? I had assumed that the proposed ID cards were like those in other EU states. There is in any case already a de facto UK ID card in the photo driving license which has a much better picture of me & no more information that my French ID card. -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur |
On Fri, 14 May 2004 08:12:28 GMT, Nigel Barker wrote:
I must be out of touch with the home country but what has he planned? I had assumed that the proposed ID cards were like those in other EU states. There is in any case already a de facto UK ID card in the photo driving license which has a much better picture of me & no more information that my French ID card. The proposal is for an id card more like a viewing card, with a chip that can be read containing data about you, linked to an authoritative computer database. -- Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com |
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On Fri, 14 May 2004 20:04:41 +0000 (UTC),
(Charles Ellson) wrote: Not if the circumstances of supply are not illegal. I do not own the card, yet I sell it to you. That feels rather like permanently depriving the owner of their property, ie theft. I represent that I own it, sounds like fraud. In which case why bother with the card ? Think through the issues of dealing with forged ID cards. In many ways the plan for ID cards is not dissimilar to what Sky are doing with their smartcards. The difference is that they are guaranteeing the authenticity of your subscription. Of course it would be more practical to have an implanted chip, then its harder to lose or damage and can be read without your knowledge. Perhaps Blunkett's assistant will suggest that. -- Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com |
Charles Ellson wrote:
As to your remedies when the card is turned off you are basically stuffed. Caveat emptor Not in the consumer retail world. "Caveat emptor" was killed of many years ago. Ebay think otherwise. -- Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these. The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/yvnsy How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73 Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/ BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/ ---- Only the truth as I see it. No monies return'd. ;-) |
Charles Ellson wrote:
And when there is no "sale" involved, as with the original FTV cards? No consideration = no contract (generally) to put it simply, but a) The consideration can be minimal (as with a "peppercorn" rent) b) If the vendor/supplier uses a dedicated telephone number from which income is derived, can they truly claim they receive no consideration? By doing so, they have already imposed a financial burden on the recipient of the card. They might argue that the two are not directly connected, but I would suggest at least some analogy with the supply of a so-called "free" gift with a purchase, in which case the law treats the "free" gift in the same manner as the goods with which it was supplied. The BBC probably made a mistake by not using an 0800 number for this: they aren't allowed to make any sort of charge for reception which is why the FTV cards were free in the first place. -- Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these. The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/yvnsy How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73 Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/ BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/ ---- Only the truth as I see it. No monies return'd. ;-) |
On Sat, 15 May 2004 04:56:46 GMT, Jomtien wrote:
Charles Ellson wrote: As to your remedies when the card is turned off you are basically stuffed. Caveat emptor Not in the consumer retail world. "Caveat emptor" was killed of many years ago. Ebay think otherwise. Ebay isn't retail, it's an auction. Most UK consumer legislation specifically excludes auctions from it's controls. Caveat emptor is still alive and well. -- QrizB "On second thought, let's not go to Z'Ha'Dum. It is a silly place." |
On Fri, 14 May 2004 20:42:22 +0200, Jim Watt wrote:
On Fri, 14 May 2004 08:12:28 GMT, Nigel Barker wrote: I must be out of touch with the home country but what has he planned? I had assumed that the proposed ID cards were like those in other EU states. There is in any case already a de facto UK ID card in the photo driving license which has a much better picture of me & no more information that my French ID card. The proposal is for an id card more like a viewing card, with a chip that can be read containing data about you, linked to an authoritative computer database. More like my French medical card (Carte Vitale) then. Incidentally I've got to giggle at all the British banks promoting the increased security of their new credit & debit cards "chip & PIN". They have been the norm on the continent for decades. Mind you I do have one of these new cards from my British bank but have yet to find anywhere to use it in the UK that has the necessary machine to read it. Nobody looks at the signatures on the credit card slips anymore so I may as well just sign it Mickey Mouse:-) -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur |
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On Sat, 15 May 2004 08:25:24 GMT, Nigel Barker wrote:
Nobody looks at the signatures on the credit card slips anymore so I may as well just sign it Mickey Mouse:-) Not sure they ever did, onetime I bought a rail ticket and the clerk looked at the signature on the slip and the card. I felt anxious at that point as realised I used the girlfriends card. She never noticed the name and sex was different. The Americans use pin numbers on ATM cards at the supermarket without a chip. However, its a sneaky way of introducing 'big brother' into the UK with ID cards that will be way in advance of other countries. -- Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com |
Nigel Barker wrote:
Incidentally I've got to giggle at all the British banks promoting the increased security of their new credit & debit cards "chip & PIN". They have been the norm on the continent for decades. Mind you I do have one of these new cards from my British bank but have yet to find anywhere to use it in the UK that has the necessary machine to read it. FYI - my local Safeway in London has the kit and 2 of my last 3 purchases there were "signed" with it (the middle one wasn't becuase they said that there were having a few teething problems. -- Rgds Paul Webster |
On Sat, 15 May 2004 13:00:24 +0000 (UTC), Paul Webster
wrote: Nigel Barker wrote: Incidentally I've got to giggle at all the British banks promoting the increased security of their new credit & debit cards "chip & PIN". They have been the norm on the continent for decades. Mind you I do have one of these new cards from my British bank but have yet to find anywhere to use it in the UK that has the necessary machine to read it. FYI - my local Safeway in London has the kit and 2 of my last 3 purchases there were "signed" with it (the middle one wasn't becuase they said that there were having a few teething problems. My local safeway also has the kit in, as I received the PIN yesterday might try it on Sunday. -- Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com |
QrizB wrote:
Not in the consumer retail world. "Caveat emptor" was killed of many years ago. Ebay think otherwise. Ebay isn't retail, it's an auction. Most UK consumer legislation specifically excludes auctions from it's controls. Caveat emptor is still alive and well. I am still waiting for Ebay or anyone else to explain to me how a "buy it now" auction with a fixed price and numerous identical items on offer can be described as anything other than retail. I suspect that I may have a long wait. -- Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these. The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/yvnsy How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73 Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/ BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/ ---- Only the truth as I see it. No monies return'd. ;-) |
Charles Ellson wrote:
Not in the consumer retail world. "Caveat emptor" was killed of many years ago. Ebay think otherwise. Ebay don't make UK laws. Maybe not, though they do make their own laws and do little to acknowledge the existence of any other ones. If the vendor is in the UK and is a trader then it is a consumer retail sale. "Caveat emptor" generally only applies to private sales, but the seller is not necessarily devoid of all liability. I think that "buyer beware" is just as valid today as it ever was. Perhaps even more so. Consumer protection doesn't stop people selling rubbish, it just makes it easier to get your money back, always supposing that you can find the vendor and can avoid being hoodwinked with some story about "no refunds" or other attempts to side-step your legal rights. Many vendors still try it on: not least Sky. -- Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these. The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/yvnsy How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73 Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/ BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/ ---- Only the truth as I see it. No monies return'd. ;-) |
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On Sun, 16 May 2004 00:28:55 +0000 (UTC),
(Charles Ellson) wrote: Of course it would be more practical to have an implanted chip, then its harder to lose or damage and can be read without your knowledge. Cue vision of Immigration Officer Lurch picking up travellers bodily and waving them past the scanner. The technology is well proven in dogs, that was the assistant I had in mind :) http://www.avidid.com/technology/index.html Its already being trialed in humans as a replacement for company ID cards, so its not a concept from the X-files. You've just blown the Home Sec's plans for after the next election. Oliver Letwin is a nice man. -- Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com |
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