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On Thu, 13 May 2004 01:24:42 +0200, Jim Watt wrote:
Listen very carefully for I shall say this only once; One party offers a service. The service is governed by terms and conditions supplied to the second party with a card clearly marked and an explanation of the deal written in plain English. The second party accepts the offer by using the card. Money changes hands. Is there a contract? Yes. There is the case where money did not change hands i.e. the original BBC 'Solus' card scheme. These cards were given away to anyone who requested them provided they had a UK address & in fact several could be sent to the same address. There was no contract or even statement of terms of use. It was probably an oversight on the part of the card issuers but that cannot now be undone. If you fail to read the words on the CD that say "unauthorised copying, hiring, public performances and broadcasting of this record prohibited' does that give you the right to do all those things? No No, because those practises are covered by normal copyright law. The physical CD is however yours to sell or does the physical CD forever remain the property of Sony Corp or whoever? You are not allowed to sell photocopies of books that you own either but you can sell the book itself, Rather like that Mr Blunkett will be able to turn off your new upcoming ID card and for practical purposes you will cease to exist. As someone resident in one country where I already possess an ID card but who also maintains a residence in the UK I was wondering how I am to get my UK ID card? Perhaps I should volunteer as one of those first 10,000 trial subjects that they mentioned on the news the other day? Then I can come over & sponge off my fellow Brits by taking advantage of the so-called 'best health service in the world':-) -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur |
On Thu, 13 May 2004 08:16:31 GMT, Nigel Barker wrote:
There is the case where money did not change hands i.e. the original BBC 'Solus' card scheme. These cards were given away to anyone who requested them provided they had a UK address & in fact several could be sent to the same address. There was no contract or even statement of terms of use. It was probably an oversight on the part of the card issuers but that cannot now be undone. Well, those cards are immaterial as they don't work anymore. BUT you are wrong, they carried the same message about ownership and they were issued with a set of terms and conditions restricting their use. Its arguable that there was a contractual relationship in place, I think the answer is yes. As someone resident in one country where I already possess an ID card but who also maintains a residence in the UK I was wondering how I am to get my UK ID card? Perhaps I should volunteer as one of those first 10,000 trial subjects that they mentioned on the news the other day? Then I can come over & sponge off my fellow Brits by taking advantage of the so-called 'best health service in the world':-) Well, I also have an ID card, but its a very different animal to the one Mr Blunkett has up his sleeve. -- Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com |
Charles Ellson wrote:
One party offers a service. The service is governed by terms and conditions supplied to the second party But which are meaningless under the circumstances where they are not brought to the attention of the purchaser _before_ the sale is agreed. So no telephone sale can be subject to any special T&Cs? And when there is no "sale" involved, as with the original FTV cards? -- Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these. The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/yvnsy How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73 Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/ BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/ ---- Only the truth as I see it. No monies return'd. ;-) |
Jim Watt wrote:
Well, those cards are immaterial as they don't work anymore. BUT you are wrong, they carried the same message about ownership and they were issued with a set of terms and conditions restricting their use. Its arguable that there was a contractual relationship in place, I think the answer is yes. Yes, the original FTV cards all came with the standard Sky wrapper, complete with all its conditions of use including the one about card ownership. Quite how valid or legal they were/are is another matter. -- Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these. The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/yvnsy How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73 Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/ BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/ ---- Only the truth as I see it. No monies return'd. ;-) |
On Fri, 14 May 2004 05:24:31 GMT, Jomtien wrote:
Yes, the original FTV cards all came with the standard Sky wrapper, complete with all its conditions of use including the one about card ownership. Quite how valid or legal they were/are is another matter. A legal opinion (over lunch) said it (the SOLUS one) was. The terms of use are less restrictive than most software licences - the MS XP EULA in particular. Indeed they have written the current terms and conditions in very plain English. Indeed they even seem to promise a replacement card in the event of a security update. -- Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com |
On Thu, 13 May 2004 20:55:33 +0200, Jim Watt wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2004 08:16:31 GMT, Nigel Barker wrote: There is the case where money did not change hands i.e. the original BBC 'Solus' card scheme. These cards were given away to anyone who requested them provided they had a UK address & in fact several could be sent to the same address. There was no contract or even statement of terms of use. It was probably an oversight on the part of the card issuers but that cannot now be undone. Well, those cards are immaterial as they don't work anymore. Yes, they do. The scheme was not wound up for some months after the introductions of the V2 Sky card. In the last few months all 'Solus' cards were V2. They did not by default replace any V1 cards but if you were smart & saw which way the wind was blowing you called them up said that the V1 card had died & they then sent a V2 replacement. BUT you are wrong, they carried the same message about ownership and they were issued with a set of terms and conditions restricting their use. Its arguable that there was a contractual relationship in place, I think the answer is yes. I think that there was not a contractual relationship because there was no 'consideration' involved as required in law. OTOH I am not a lawyer nor do I aspire to be one:-) Well, I also have an ID card, but its a very different animal to the one Mr Blunkett has up his sleeve. I must be out of touch with the home country but what has he planned? I had assumed that the proposed ID cards were like those in other EU states. There is in any case already a de facto UK ID card in the photo driving license which has a much better picture of me & no more information that my French ID card. -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur |
On Fri, 14 May 2004 08:12:28 GMT, Nigel Barker wrote:
I must be out of touch with the home country but what has he planned? I had assumed that the proposed ID cards were like those in other EU states. There is in any case already a de facto UK ID card in the photo driving license which has a much better picture of me & no more information that my French ID card. The proposal is for an id card more like a viewing card, with a chip that can be read containing data about you, linked to an authoritative computer database. -- Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com |
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On Fri, 14 May 2004 20:04:41 +0000 (UTC),
(Charles Ellson) wrote: Not if the circumstances of supply are not illegal. I do not own the card, yet I sell it to you. That feels rather like permanently depriving the owner of their property, ie theft. I represent that I own it, sounds like fraud. In which case why bother with the card ? Think through the issues of dealing with forged ID cards. In many ways the plan for ID cards is not dissimilar to what Sky are doing with their smartcards. The difference is that they are guaranteeing the authenticity of your subscription. Of course it would be more practical to have an implanted chip, then its harder to lose or damage and can be read without your knowledge. Perhaps Blunkett's assistant will suggest that. -- Jim Watt http://www.gibnet.com |
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