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SKYBUY - do they break EU law?
I saw on SKY magazine (current issue) SKYBUY offer for a 42 inch
plasma TV. It also says that if you buy such TV AND you subsrcibe to SKy+, you get back 200 UKP. Since only UK citizens can subscribe to SKY+, this offer discriminate EU citizens regarding countries (ie: UK and other) and gives a choice to UK citizens which choice can not be given to other EU citizens. I do not know if only UK citizens can buy this 42 inch plasma TV from SKYBUY but if that is true also, it makes it worse. Any comments? Bubo |
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I saw on SKY magazine (current issue) SKYBUY offer for a 42 inch
plasma TV. It also says that if you buy such TV AND you subsrcibe to SKy+, you get back 200 UKP. Since only UK citizens can subscribe to SKY+, this offer discriminate EU citizens regarding countries (ie: UK and other) and gives a choice to UK citizens which choice can not be given to other EU citizens. I do not know if only UK citizens can buy this 42 inch plasma TV from SKYBUY but if that is true also, it makes it worse. Any comments? Bubo do they actually ship abroad? if they do im sure the cost of it and insurance would outweigh the benifit. they are a uk company who sell there services to the UK and the offers are listed in a magazine you recieve in the UK so they dont really need to consider it, its not like there a multinational like Microsoft (even they have promotions which only are avaliable to certain countries). almost every single similar offer i know of it states countries that are legible. just buy one from a more local company, its far more convenient. a plasma would probably get broken on the journey anyway |
In article ,
Replicator Creator wrote: Since only UK citizens can subscribe to SKY+, this offer discriminate EU citizens regarding countries (ie: UK and other) and gives a choice to UK citizens which choice can not be given to other EU citizens. It is perfectly legal for a company to discriminate on grounds of geography. Dave -- Email: MSN Messenger: |
David Marshall ) writes:
In article , Replicator Creator wrote: Since only UK citizens can subscribe to SKY+, this offer discriminate EU citizens regarding countries (ie: UK and other) and gives a choice to UK citizens which choice can not be given to other EU citizens. It is perfectly legal for a company to discriminate on grounds of geography. Dave -- Email: MSN Messenger: I think it is legal to charge the customer geographically (shipping cost, etc). but it is not legal to give a discount for a product for one EU citizen and not to give the same for another EU citizen. A non UK citizen can not get any can not have any disadvantage for the same service. The UKP 200 money back offer if you subscribe to SKy+ simply abjudicates non UK but EU citizens which is against the EU directives and laws. I think the poster is right. Joe |
Simon Gardner [dot]co[dot]uk) writes:
In article , (Replicator Creator) wrote: I saw on SKY magazine (current issue) SKYBUY offer for a 42 inch plasma TV. It also says that if you buy such TV AND you subsrcibe to SKy+, you get back 200 UKP. Since only UK citizens can subscribe to SKY+, Not true. Anyone living in the UK can - and presumably in the British Isles. Whether or not such a person is a UK citizen is irrelevant. It's where you live which determines who will sell you European subscription services, not what nationality you are. The only exception to that I know of is Switzerland - which of course is not an EU country. this offer discriminate EU citizens regarding countries (ie: UK and other) and gives a choice to UK citizens which choice can not be given to other EU citizens. Not true. I do not know if only UK citizens can buy this 42 inch plasma TV from SKYBUY but if that is true also, it makes it worse. Since only UK citizens can subscribe to SKY+, Not true. Anyone living in the UK can - and presumably in the British Isles. Whether or not such a person is a UK citizen is irrelevant. It's where you live which determines who will sell you European subscription services, not what nationality you are. The only exception to that I know of is Switzerland - which of course is not an EU country. I am not talking about SKY sub, I am talking about a discount of a TV set selling service which excludes non UK resident EU citizens. OK, then I mean "UK residents" What is the difference? SKYBUY differentiates giving you the 200 UKP discount depending where the EU you live. If you live where SKY can be subscribed then you can use the 200 UKP money back offer. If you do not live there, you can not. This is connected to the purchase television set, I am not talking about SKY subscription here this offer discriminate EU citizens regarding countries (ie: UK and other) and gives a choice to UK citizens which choice can not be given to other EU citizens. Not true. Yes, true |
In article ,
Joseph Szadai wrote: I think it is legal to charge the customer geographically (shipping cost, etc). but it is not legal to give a discount for a product for one EU citizen and not to give the same for another EU citizen. It is perfectly legal to charge people difference prices (or indeed refuse to supply at all) depending on their location. The majority of the legal limits aren't on businesses but on governments - to stop them restricting trade. The intention was never to force companies to become multinationals against their wishes. Dave -- Email: MSN Messenger: |
David Marshall ) writes:
In article , Joseph Szadai wrote: I think it is legal to charge the customer geographically (shipping cost, etc). but it is not legal to give a discount for a product for one EU citizen and not to give the same for another EU citizen. It is perfectly legal to charge people difference prices (or indeed refuse to supply at all) depending on their location. The majority of the legal limits aren't on businesses but on governments - to stop them restricting trade. The intention was never to force companies to become multinationals against their wishes. Dave -- Email: MSN Messenger: Dear Dave, You misunderstand the whole issue. If I tell SKYBUY that I wanna buy a very expensive 42 inch plasma TV, they can not say: "I am sorry, you are not UK resident so I can not sell it to you" It is simply against the EU law. If I go to a shop in the UK and want to buy a TV set, they can not ask my identity cards in order to decide where I am from and depending on that to decide if they refuse or not. A supplier can refuse selling but not based on if the buyer is living in UK or not. They can not even ask where I live. Of course they might say "OK, but we can not give you warranty, only if you bring it to us for repair or pay the freight cost from say Greece (if you live there). The problem is that they offer a choice - if you subscribe to SKY+ you get 200 UKP back. An offer which can be chosed only by UK residents. This makes difference between EU citizens and it is not permitted. |
David Marshall ) writes:
In article , Joseph Szadai wrote: I think it is legal to charge the customer geographically (shipping cost, etc). but it is not legal to give a discount for a product for one EU citizen and not to give the same for another EU citizen. It is perfectly legal to charge people difference prices (or indeed refuse to supply at all) depending on their location. The majority of the legal limits aren't on businesses but on governments - to stop them restricting trade. The intention was never to force companies to become multinationals against their wishes. Dave -- Email: MSN Messenger: |
David Marshall ) writes:
In article , Joseph Szadai wrote: I think it is legal to charge the customer geographically (shipping cost, etc). but it is not legal to give a discount for a product for one EU citizen and not to give the same for another EU citizen. It is perfectly legal to charge people difference prices (or indeed refuse to supply at all) depending on their location. The majority of the legal limits aren't on businesses but on governments - to stop them restricting trade. The intention was never to force companies to become multinationals against their wishes. Dave -- Email: MSN Messenger: The majority of the legal limits aren't on businesses but on governments - to stop them restricting trade. The intention was never to force companies to become multinationals against their wishes. ---- it is not about a company becoming multinational. is it about a company selling TV set and giving you a choice to get back 200 UKP, a choice which is given based on location within the EU. It is not permitted. this choice is dicriminative. |
In article ,
Joseph Szadai wrote: You misunderstand the whole issue. If I tell SKYBUY that I wanna buy a very expensive 42 inch plasma TV, they can not say: "I am sorry, you are not UK resident so I can not sell it to you" Yes, they can! It is simply against the EU law. No, it's not. It is perfectly legal for a company to discriminate on grounds of geography. Go and check the legislation. Dave -- Email: MSN Messenger: |
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Replicator Creator wrote:
Since only UK citizens can subscribe to SKY+, this offer discriminate EU citizens regarding countries (ie: UK and other) and gives a choice to UK citizens which choice can not be given to other EU citizens. Sadly not. The discrimination is on geographical position, not on nationality, race or citizenship. Anyone (Brit, Frog, German etc.) living in the UK can take advantage of this SkyBuy offer and, as such, it breaks no law. The law should indeed be changed though to make it an offence to refuse to sell anything throughout the EU, whilst allowing for extra delivery costs, if any. -- Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these. The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/tez5 How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73 Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/ BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/ ---- Only the truth as I see it. No monies return'd. ;-) |
Joseph Szadai wrote:
SKYBUY differentiates giving you the 200 UKP discount depending where the EU you live. They do indeed but this is not illegal. It should be but it isn't. -- Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these. The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/tez5 How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73 Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/ BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/ ---- Only the truth as I see it. No monies return'd. ;-) |
Joseph Szadai wrote:
I think it is legal to charge the customer geographically (shipping cost, etc). but it is not legal to give a discount for a product for one EU citizen and not to give the same for another EU citizen. It is legal to do this. You can't refuse the discount to any EU citizen (including British) living in the UK. You can refuse it to all EU citizens (including British) not living in the UK. This is what Sky do. It is not illegal. It should be but it isn't. -- Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these. The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/tez5 How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73 Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/ BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/ ---- Only the truth as I see it. No monies return'd. ;-) |
David Marshall wrote:
It is perfectly legal to charge people difference prices (or indeed refuse to supply at all) depending on their location. The refusal to supply is not legal in some EU countries, and rightly so. There is an intrinsic fault in the UK "invitation to treat" principle. In some EU countries once an item has been advertised (E&OE) it must be sold to all comers at that price. This applies to price stickers in shops too. None of this "advertise a whatsit at 99p in the paper and when you get to the shop they've sold out of the only cheap one they ever had and would you like to buy the same thing for £9.99" nonsense that happens all the time in the UK. -- Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these. The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/tez5 How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73 Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/ BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/ ---- Only the truth as I see it. No monies return'd. ;-) |
Joseph Szadai wrote:
If I tell SKYBUY that I wanna buy a very expensive 42 inch plasma TV, they can not say: "I am sorry, you are not UK resident so I can not sell it to you" It is simply against the EU law. They can indeed say that. It is not illegal and breaks no UK or EU law. It should be but it isn't. -- Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these. The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/tez5 How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73 Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/ BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/ ---- Only the truth as I see it. No monies return'd. ;-) |
Jomtien ) writes:
Joseph Szadai wrote: If I tell SKYBUY that I wanna buy a very expensive 42 inch plasma TV, they can not say: "I am sorry, you are not UK resident so I can not sell it to you" It is simply against the EU law. They can indeed say that. It is not illegal and breaks no UK or EU law. It should be but it isn't. -- Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these. The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/tez5 How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73 Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/ BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/ ---- Only the truth as I see it. No monies return'd. ;-) The Terms and conditions on www.sky.com/skybuy do NOT say that they do not sell plasma TV outside UK. If the Terms and Conditions they declared themselves do not say dat (which is the case) refusing outside UK requests is againts the law. Also in this case since they do not state that they refuse requests outside UK, they do not handle customers based on equal services (EU directive) because they have an offer by which you have a chence to gain back money, but only if you live in the UK (since SKY+ can be subscribed by UK residents (ok, and ireland, etc). Do not tell me it is completely legal. At least if they do not say in terms and conditions that they do not sell outside UK, they can refuse requests outside UK. Joe |
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Simon Gardner [dot]co[dot]uk) writes:
In article , (Joseph Szadai) wrote: OK, then suppose this: I travel to UK, live at my friend's house for say 2 weeks. I order the plasma TV. (I order it for me, not my friend where I live for 2 weeks). In this case I can not subscribe to SKY+, since I am not a UK resident, however since my friend's house is in the UK, they send me the TV if I give the address and pay its price. Still not your residence. This is discrimination. Still not illegal. The terms and conditions do not say that I have to be resident. Only SKY subscription's terms and conditions says that. Skybuy does not. So, discrimination is not illegal in the UK? OK! That's all I needed to know. |
In article ,
Joseph Szadai wrote: So, discrimination is not illegal in the UK? OK! That's all I needed to know. Only some kinds of discrimination are illegal in the UK. Discrimination on grounds of geography isn't one of them. Dave -- Email: MSN Messenger: |
David Marshall ) writes:
In article , Joseph Szadai wrote: So, discrimination is not illegal in the UK? OK! That's all I needed to know. Only some kinds of discrimination are illegal in the UK. Discrimination on grounds of geography isn't one of them. Dave -- Email: MSN Messenger: They do not discriminate the sale based on geography. They discriminate the bonus they connect to the sale geographically that is illegal. end debate. |
In article ,
Joseph Szadai wrote: They do not discriminate the sale based on geography. They discriminate the bonus they connect to the sale geographically that is illegal. No! Because there is *no sense* in which geographic discrimination is illegal! The bonus, the sale, it doesn't matter, it's still perfectly legal. You've got at least three people here explicitly telling you that you've misunderstood the legislation - learn from it. Dave -- Email: MSN Messenger: |
Joseph Szadai wrote:
Do not tell me it is completely legal. At least if they do not say in terms and conditions that they do not sell outside UK, they can refuse requests outside UK. Joe Just because it is advertised don't mean that they HAVE to sell it to you. Some on-line store made a mess of its prices a couple of years back and offered TVs or PC for virtually nothing - they didn't HAVE to sell them at those prices - they were able to just refuse to sell them. |
They do not discriminate the sale based on geography.
They discriminate the bonus they connect to the sale geographically that is illegal. end debate. OK - take them to court then! |
"Joseph Szadai" wrote in message ... They do not discriminate the sale based on geography. They discriminate the bonus they connect to the sale geographically that is illegal. end debate. OK, so your are convinced. What you going to do about it? Moan in newsgroups? Loz |
Joseph Szadai wrote:
So, discrimination is not illegal in the UK? OK! That's all I needed to know. Some sorts of discrimination are indeed illegal in Britain and in the EU. By race, by nationality, by religion, by sex, by age. All illegal, more or less. Discrimination by geographical location is not illegal, though it should be. -- Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these. The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/tez5 How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73 Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/ BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/ ---- Only the truth as I see it. No monies return'd. ;-) |
Joseph Szadai wrote:
They do not discriminate the sale based on geography. I think that you will find that they do. Sky will not sell anything outside of the UK and ROI. They discriminate the bonus they connect to the sale geographically that is illegal. They do indeed discriminate by geographical location in applying the discount but this is not illegal under EU or UK law. It should be but it isn't. -- Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these. The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/tez5 How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73 Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/ BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/ ---- Only the truth as I see it. No monies return'd. ;-) |
Joseph Szadai wrote:
The Terms and conditions on www.sky.com/skybuy do NOT say that they do not sell plasma TV outside UK. Indeed. But there is no requirement under UK law for them to say so. UK law gives businesses the right to sell what they want to whoever they want, or not, as the case may be. They cannot refuse to sell to someone because they are black. They can however refuse to sell to someone because they live in Cardiff or in Moscow, or even because they just think the person is a prat. They can even charge people extra just for being a prat or for living in Cardiff. But they can't charge people extra for being foreign or black or gay or old or a woman, or indeed all of the above. If the Terms and Conditions they declared themselves do not say dat (which is the case) refusing outside UK requests is againts the law. On the contrary, UK businesses in general have no obligation to sell anything to anyone at all, either inside or outside Britain. This is wrong and should be changed but it is the law as it stands. -- Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these. The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/tez5 How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73 Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/ BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/ ---- Only the truth as I see it. No monies return'd. ;-) |
"Jomtien" wrote in message ... If the Terms and Conditions they declared themselves do not say dat (which is the case) refusing outside UK requests is againts the law. On the contrary, UK businesses in general have no obligation to sell anything to anyone at all, either inside or outside Britain. This is wrong and should be changed but it is the law as it stands. As a matter of interest why do you think it is wrong? Why should a UK (or any other) business have an obligation to sell something? Is it purely because they can be accused of discrimination? Loz |
"loz" ) writes:
"Joseph Szadai" wrote in message ... They do not discriminate the sale based on geography. They discriminate the bonus they connect to the sale geographically that is illegal. end debate. OK, so your are convinced. What you going to do about it? Moan in newsgroups? Loz Since SKY subscription is also agains the EU directive of free movement of services, no ona can do anything. Just noted. |
"Rob" ) writes:
Joseph Szadai wrote: Do not tell me it is completely legal. At least if they do not say in terms and conditions that they do not sell outside UK, they can refuse requests outside UK. Joe Just because it is advertised don't mean that they HAVE to sell it to you. Some on-line store made a mess of its prices a couple of years back and offered TVs or PC for virtually nothing - they didn't HAVE to sell them at those prices - they were able to just refuse to sell them. Hey, we are talking about different things. If I am a TV seller and sell TV in the UK, I can not say: Hey, you are UK resident so you get 20 % discount from me. Oh, you are not UK resident? You have to pay the full price... Interesting isn't it? |
loz wrote:
On the contrary, UK businesses in general have no obligation to sell anything to anyone at all, either inside or outside Britain. This is wrong and should be changed but it is the law as it stands. As a matter of interest why do you think it is wrong? Why should a UK (or any other) business have an obligation to sell something? Is it purely because they can be accused of discrimination? Some EU countries take the attitude that an advert (poster, TV, price sticker in shop) is a open contract with the purchaser. I agree. I also fail to see why any business should be allowed to be picky about where or to whom they sell. An offer of sale is an offer of sale. Anyone with the list price in his pocket should be able to buy. It's up to the company to get its list prices right, and to arrange and charge a fair price for suitable delivery as needed, except when delivery is not possible for physical reasons, of course, or when they don't deliver at all. EU residents live in a single market now and companies must be obliged to treat the entire EU as one area, unless they don't trade at a distance at all and only do counter sales. -- Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these. The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/tez5 How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73 Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/ BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/ ---- Only the truth as I see it. No monies return'd. ;-) |
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"Jomtien" wrote in message ... As a matter of interest why do you think it is wrong? Why should a UK (or any other) business have an obligation to sell something? Is it purely because they can be accused of discrimination? Some EU countries take the attitude that an advert (poster, TV, price sticker in shop) is a open contract with the purchaser. I agree. I also fail to see why any business should be allowed to be picky about where or to whom they sell. An offer of sale is an offer of sale. Anyone with the list price in his pocket should be able to buy. Obviously they lay themselves open to acusations of discrimination, but I still don't see why a business shouldn't be allowed to be picky on any other grounds. Having said that, I am not sure what those other grounds are It's up to the company to get its list prices right, and to arrange and charge a fair price for suitable delivery as needed, except when delivery is not possible for physical reasons, of course, or when they don't deliver at all. EU residents live in a single market now and companies must be obliged to treat the entire EU as one area, unless they don't trade at a distance at all and only do counter sales. However, don't other laws or treaties override this - as in Sky's broadcasting business? Loz |
Do not tell me it is completely legal. At least if they do not say
in terms and conditions that they do not sell outside UK, they can refuse requests outside UK. Just because it is advertised don't mean that they HAVE to sell it to you. Some on-line store made a mess of its prices a couple of years back and offered TVs or PC for virtually nothing - they didn't HAVE to sell them at those prices - they were able to just refuse to sell them. Hey, we are talking about different things. If I am a TV seller and sell TV in the UK, I can not say: Hey, you are UK resident so you get 20 % discount from me. Oh, you are not UK resident? You have to pay the full price... Interesting isn't it? I went back to the Sky web site to see what the fuss was all about. I assume we are talking about "Sky's Ultimate Home Entertainment System" I read through the pages and I cannot find ANYWHERE that it says the you get a discount on the TV for living in the UK. If you buy a SKY+ box and subscription to go with your TV then you get a "discount" (cash back) on that as part of a deal for having bought the TV. Are you saying they won't SELL you the TV for being outside the UK. (Note that it says that they have to install it - and maybe only have a contract with a UK firm), this is covered by what I said before. Or are you saying that they won't give you a DISCOUNT on the TV for being outside the UK. In which case I must be looking at completely the wrong offer. Again, if they are really treating you illegally - take 'em to court. |
rnet[dot]co[dot]uk (Simon Gardner) wrote:
Since SKY subscription is also agains the EU directive of free movement of services No it isn't - as the Commission has made clear on a number of occasions in writing.. It certainly is contrary to both the spirit and the letter of the principle of freedom of movement of goods and services. The EU haven't said that it isn't, they have just said that they won't do anything about it. Presumably because they are well lobbied (greased) to do so. -- Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these. The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/tez5 How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73 Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/ BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/ ---- Only the truth as I see it. No monies return'd. ;-) |
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