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Dots on BBC1 Sky widescreen picture
Hi,
In article , Paul wrote: Sorry if this has already been covered (I did look), but is anyone else getting a line of dots at the top of the picture (not screen) on BBC1 widescreen transmissions via Sky, since the BBC went regional? They look like data (like the Teletext lines in an analogue transmission) and don't appear on other BBC channels. They're just annoying on our main (4:3) telly, but our portable flickers so badly on digital BBC1 now (RF or Scart connection) that we don't watch it. Not sure if they've been mentioned here, but they have on Digital Spy's forums. I think the BBC are aware of it and trying to sort it. I agree though, it's a little annoying. Andy |
Paul Stephens wrote:
Sorry if this has already been covered (I did look), but is anyone else getting a line of dots at the top of the picture (not screen) on BBC1 widescreen transmissions via Sky, since the BBC went regional? They look like data (like the Teletext lines in an analogue transmission) and don't appear on other BBC channels. They're just annoying on our main (4:3) telly, but our portable flickers so badly on digital BBC1 now (RF or Scart connection) that we don't watch it. They are line 23 widescreen signalling idents. I assume they are used *internally* within the BBC networks to flag the correct aspect ratio. It seems that they are not getting stripped off before transmission (they should be). Some Digiboxes pass the signal, and it gets displayed, others do not. Some TV sets (notably early Sony w/s sets) respond incorrectly to some of the signals. For instance my 1996 Sony displays a stretched image, when it receives the 4:3 line 23 signal. Very annoying. I have to go back to BBC 1 London on 944 during 4:3 programmes. (BBC 1 London, Scotland, Wales, and NI, plus all BBC 2s and 3, 4, N24 do not have the signal, thank goodness ! ) |
Previously, in uk.media.tv.sky:
Chris Vowles said: BBC are not sure why it is happening! see http://www.bbc.co.uk/reception/dsatanswers.shtml#epg They think it's receiver related. Er, I've got Sky+, first generation box admittedly, but isn't that supposed to be top of the range? What sort of box do you need to avoid the line? Can anyone find an email link where I can tell them to blank line 23? It's not difficult. My solution is to move my series links to BBC London as I have a widescreen tv downstairs which isn't affected - it's only when I watch Stenders on the portable 4:3 upstairs that I see it. -- Jack Bristow To contact me, bypass SD6 |
In article ,
Chris Vowles wrote: BBC are not sure why it is happening! see http://www.bbc.co.uk/reception/dsatanswers.shtml#epg They don't know what it is? It looks like line 23 signalling to me... Dave -- Email: MSN Messenger: |
Ant wrote:
On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 16:09:39 +0100, Chris Vowles wrote: BBC are not sure why it is happening! The BBC must be in a sad state if they can't recognise and know how to insert/remove a line 23 WSS signal... I understand it is a problem resulting from the specific MPEG2 encoders used. The specific installation used to create a mixed 4:3/16:9 aspect ratio DSat service from the permanent 16:9 DTT / Network services in the regions requires line 23 signalling between an ARC (required to convert 12P16 to 12F12) and the MPEG2 coders. I think the encoders should probably be programmable to strip WSS - but they don't seem to be. Steve |
Ant wrote:
On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 16:09:39 +0100, Chris Vowles wrote: BBC are not sure why it is happening! The BBC must be in a sad state if they can't recognise and know how to insert/remove a line 23 WSS signal... I expect they've installed some new kit for these regional feeds, and the removal or masking of the line 23 idents requires the equipment manufacturer to make a (hopefully) software, or (hopefully not) hardware modification. I know from my own experience working in broadcast equipment manufacture and supply, that this can take time to sort out, test, and finally implement. |
Mike Henry wrote:
wrote: I understand it is a problem resulting from the specific MPEG2 encoders used. The specific installation used to create a mixed 4:3/16:9 aspect ratio DSat service from the permanent 16:9 DTT / Network services in the regions requires line 23 signalling between an ARC (required to convert 12P16 to 12F12) and the MPEG2 coders. I think the encoders should probably be programmable to strip WSS - but they don't seem to be. Thanks very much for that info. What I don't understand though it why the encoders were encoding line 23 at all. Ie, it's not a question of "stripping" it from the picture, it isn't strictly part of the picture in the first place! The second half of line 23 is active picture however. The first half has been hijacked in recent years for WSS switching (a PAL+ legacy) It is often easier to either let all of L23 through, or none of it. It is used extensively within many broadcaster's systems for WSS and other signalling. See:- http://www.microvideo.co.uk/home1.htm |
Previously, in uk.media.tv.sky:
Mark Carver said: Ant wrote: On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 16:09:39 +0100, Chris Vowles wrote: BBC are not sure why it is happening! The BBC must be in a sad state if they can't recognise and know how to insert/remove a line 23 WSS signal... I expect they've installed some new kit for these regional feeds, and the removal or masking of the line 23 idents requires the equipment manufacturer to make a (hopefully) software, or (hopefully not) hardware modification. I know from my own experience working in broadcast equipment manufacture and supply, that this can take time to sort out, test, and finally implement. They could surely put something in line with the "kit" either in or out of it to mask the line! They did enough DOG marked testing, why on earth did noone spot this??? -- Jack Bristow To contact me, bypass SD6 |
In article , jack.bristowSD6
@virginSD6.net says... Previously, in uk.media.tv.sky: Mark Carver said: Ant wrote: On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 16:09:39 +0100, Chris Vowles wrote: BBC are not sure why it is happening! The BBC must be in a sad state if they can't recognise and know how to insert/remove a line 23 WSS signal... I expect they've installed some new kit for these regional feeds, and the removal or masking of the line 23 idents requires the equipment manufacturer to make a (hopefully) software, or (hopefully not) hardware modification. I know from my own experience working in broadcast equipment manufacture and supply, that this can take time to sort out, test, and finally implement. They could surely put something in line with the "kit" either in or out of it to mask the line! They did enough DOG marked testing, why on earth did noone spot this??? Perhaps they were watching the tests on widescreen monitors/TVs where there's a bit of overscan and so they won't spot it. Will these also be spotted on a WS Plasma TV where there's no overscan either? -- Dom Robinson Gamertag: DVDfever email: dom at dvdfever dot co dot uk /* http://DVDfever.co.uk (editor) /* 937 DVDs, 259 games, 33 videos, 67 cinema films, 69 CDs, laserdiscs & news /* catch me if you can, terminator 3, brute force, punch drunk love, shield s1 "Organiser Eric Amy hit out today after just four people showed up for a public meeting to fight apathy in Dorchester" - Dorset Evening Echo |
They could surely put something in line with the "kit" either in or out of it to mask the line! Contrary to popular belief TV stations do not have piles of spare equipment laying about in order to perform instant fixes of this type. I can't think of any simple solution that would mask line 23. Feeding the signal through a VTR might do it, but that would be busy somewhere else being a VTR :-) With 15 or so feeds affected it is even more unlikely that a bodge temporary fix could be initiated. I do agree it is less than ideal that things have got to this stage, without the problem being fixed. They did enough DOG marked testing, why on earth did noone spot this??? Perhaps they were watching the tests on widescreen monitors/TVs where there's a bit of overscan and so they won't spot it. Monitoring of pictures within broadcast stations should be done on 'underscanned' monitors, for this very reason. All broadcast quality monitors have several display options. Overscan (like yer telly at home), Underscan where line 23 (and lines 18-22) are clearly visible, V delay where the entire vertical blanking area can be examined (so teletext data and any other signals can be seen), and H delay so the sync pulses and colour sub-carrier burst are visible. In addition often a waveform monitor is also connected, this is rather like an oscilloscope where any part of the video signal can be examined and measured . |
They could surely put something in line with the "kit" either in or out of it to mask the line! Contrary to popular belief TV stations do not have piles of spare equipment laying about in order to perform instant fixes of this type. I can't think of any simple solution that would mask line 23. Feeding the signal through a VTR might do it, but that would be busy somewhere else being a VTR :-) With 15 or so feeds affected it is even more unlikely that a bodge temporary fix could be initiated. However in this particular case the MPEG coders need the line 23 ident, in order to generate the widescreen flags for the programme stream, so masking L23 before the signal hits the coder would be no good. I do agree it is less than ideal that things have got to this stage, without the problem being fixed. They did enough DOG marked testing, why on earth did noone spot this??? Perhaps they were watching the tests on widescreen monitors/TVs where there's a bit of overscan and so they won't spot it. Monitoring of pictures within broadcast stations should be done on 'underscanned' monitors, for this very reason. All broadcast quality monitors have several display options. Overscan (like yer telly at home), Underscan where line 23 (and lines 18-22) are clearly visible, V delay where the entire vertical blanking area can be examined (so teletext data and any other signals can be seen), and H delay so the sync pulses and colour sub-carrier burst are visible. In addition often a waveform monitor is also connected, this is rather like an oscilloscope where any part of the video signal can be examined and measured . |
Previously, in uk.media.tv.sky:
Dom Robinson said: Perhaps they were watching the tests on widescreen monitors/TVs where there's a bit of overscan and so they won't spot it. Well it was plain sloppy then not to test 16:9 lbx and 4:3 centre cut out presentation as these are both standard in all receivers. -- Jack Bristow To contact me, bypass SD6 |
Previously, in uk.media.tv.sky:
Mark Carver said: They could surely put something in line with the "kit" either in or out of it to mask the line! Contrary to popular belief TV stations do not have piles of spare equipment laying about in order to perform instant fixes of this type. Well they ought to make it a priority to go out and buy some pronto because someone's ****ed up big style. Of course this probably doesn't seem to be too important as it's only the regions isn't it, not London... Oh, but of course, it's down to some receivers. Could we do a check? I've got a first gen Sky+ stb and it does it on that. Is anyone not seeing it? And if not, what model of stb have they got? I could check on my old black Grundig too.. -- Jack Bristow To contact me, bypass SD6 |
"Jack Bristow" wrote in message ... Previously, in uk.media.tv.sky: Mark Carver said: They could surely put something in line with the "kit" either in or out of it to mask the line! Contrary to popular belief TV stations do not have piles of spare equipment laying about in order to perform instant fixes of this type. Well they ought to make it a priority to go out and buy some pronto because someone's ****ed up big style. Of course this probably doesn't seem to be too important as it's only the regions isn't it, not London... Oh, but of course, it's down to some receivers. Could we do a check? I've got a first gen Sky+ stb and it does it on that. Is anyone not seeing it? And if not, what model of stb have they got? I could check on my old black Grundig too.. E4 +1 had exactly the same problem, maybe a coincidence but it was first reported on the 29th in the digital spy forum. It seems E4 have sorted the problem out while the BBC can not/will not or are content to just have the problem listed on their website. Dots appear on my SKY+ (version1) but not on my Pace 2200 digibox. Mike C |
Mike_C wrote:
Dots appear on my SKY+ (version1) but not on my Pace 2200 digibox. Same with me, V1 Sky+ yes, Mk 1 Pace no. I was playing about with a brand new Pace Digibox last week, and that did not exhibit the problem. |
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Previously, in uk.media.tv.sky:
Stephen Neal said: I for one would not have wished them to postpone the launch of this useful service just to blank a few twinkling dots at the top of frame... Oh, well stuff the rest of us then. It doesn't affect me much either as I have a 16:9 tv and only see it when watching BBC1 upstairs on the portable. I still feel for the people who are seeing the lines on all ws BBC1 programmes. Incidentally, which region are you watching, you are aware that London isn't affected? You have the smugness of a Londoner :) -- Jack Bristow To contact me, bypass SD6 |
Jack Bristow wrote:
Previously, in uk.media.tv.sky: Mark Carver said: They could surely put something in line with the "kit" either in or out of it to mask the line! Contrary to popular belief TV stations do not have piles of spare equipment laying about in order to perform instant fixes of this type. Well they ought to make it a priority to go out and buy some pronto because someone's ****ed up big style. Of course this probably doesn't seem to be too important as it's only the regions isn't it, not London... Oh, but of course, it's down to some receivers. Could we do a check? I've got a first gen Sky+ stb and it does it on that. Is anyone not seeing it? And if not, what model of stb have they got? I could check on my old black Grundig too.. Pannysonic Silver Box (Not Sky+) Second gen of the standard Pannysonic Sky box. |
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