Please review my proposed Shuttle Media Center PC spec
 

I have now definitely decided to build my own Media Center PC as I can't
find anything available off the shelf in the UK that meets my needs and
budget. I would appreciate any comments on my proposed spec in case I have
made a boo-boo

- Shuttle XPC SN95G5
- AMD Athlon 64 3000+ Socket 939
- 250GB SATA HDD (haven't chosen model - any suggestions?)
- 2*256MB PC3200 DDR400 ram (any reason not to simply get budget
Crucial/generic memory?)
- NEC 3500A 16X D/L DVD+-RW
- Hauppauge PVR-150-MCE TV card (to record from Sky satellite set top box -
no UHF TV required)
- nVidia FX5200 128MB DVI video card (no brand chosen but anything cheapish
so long as it keeps MCE 2005 happy)
- MCE 2005 remote control
- Win XP MCE 2005 OEM

I'm aware that the proposed video card is pretty low spec but I don't not
want to play games and I do want to keep price and temperature/noise low. I
am only interested in using it as a media center PC and will not even
perform regular PC tasks like internet or Office work on it as I already
have a wireless laptop for that purpose and an Xbox for games.

The box will be feeding a PAL widescreen TV through s-video (or possibly a
VGA-RGB converter lead). Given that, would I gain any advantage by getting a
higher spec card or by choosing a budget ATI rather than nVidia? If my needs
change I can always upgrade memory and video in the future but right now I
need to keep the price down. I figure the rest of the components should last
me a good while to come.

Thanks for your thoughts,
Tim.

--
Please quote "easytiger" for your PlusNet referral :-)

"Tiny Tim" wrote in message
...
[snip]

The box will be feeding a PAL widescreen TV through s-video (or possibly a
VGA-RGB converter lead). Given that, would I gain any advantage by getting
a higher spec card or by choosing a budget ATI rather than nVidia? If my
needs change I can always upgrade memory and video in the future but right
now I need to keep the price down. I figure the rest of the components
should last me a good while to come.

As per the other thread we are both contributing to - AIUI nVidia cards
don't support a simple VGA-SCART video cable in the same way that ATIs do.
Think the ATIs are the only ones that happily generate composite syncs (as
required for SCART) and an interlaced video output (as required for normal
TVs) on their VGA outputs.

Both nVidia and ATI cards will happily generate a TV-out - but this is not
RGB and is a processed version (rather than a clean version) of the Windows
desktop. (It is scaled and flicker fixed)

As I have yet to see an ATI actually running RGB into a TV and displaying
video I have no idea if the quality is better or worse - though others say
it is better. Until I see how it copes with interlace I can't really
comment further.

I'd suggest going with an ATI though - as at least it keeps your options
open. I went for a slightly larger solution - an Antec Aria case that can
take a uATX mobo - 3 PCI slots and an AGP - (as well as a couple of HDs) I
was therefore able to go initially for a motherboard with on-board nVidia
gfx and a TV out - but annoyingly no SPDIF. I've just upgraded to a Radeon.
It is bigger than a Shuttle - but I have a couple of slots free still even
with the video card and a Nova-T PCI.

Steve

Stephen Neal wrote:
"Tiny Tim" wrote in message
...
[snip]

The box will be feeding a PAL widescreen TV through s-video (or
possibly a VGA-RGB converter lead). Given that, would I gain any
advantage by getting a higher spec card or by choosing a budget ATI
rather than nVidia? If my needs change I can always upgrade memory
and video in the future but right now I need to keep the price down.
I figure the rest of the components should last me a good while to
come.

As per the other thread we are both contributing to - AIUI nVidia
cards don't support a simple VGA-SCART video cable in the same way
that ATIs do. Think the ATIs are the only ones that happily generate
composite syncs (as required for SCART) and an interlaced video
output (as required for normal TVs) on their VGA outputs.

Both nVidia and ATI cards will happily generate a TV-out - but this
is not RGB and is a processed version (rather than a clean version)
of the Windows desktop. (It is scaled and flicker fixed)

As I have yet to see an ATI actually running RGB into a TV and
displaying video I have no idea if the quality is better or worse -
though others say it is better. Until I see how it copes with
interlace I can't really comment further.

I'd suggest going with an ATI though - as at least it keeps your
options open. I went for a slightly larger solution - an Antec Aria
case that can take a uATX mobo - 3 PCI slots and an AGP - (as well as
a couple of HDs) I was therefore able to go initially for a
motherboard with on-board nVidia gfx and a TV out - but annoyingly no
SPDIF. I've just upgraded to a Radeon. It is bigger than a Shuttle - but
I have a couple of slots free still even with the video card
and a Nova-T PCI.
Steve

Thanks for the reply. I'll take on board what you say about ATI generating
composite syncs, although I wonder whether TVTool ( I use that on my Dell
Inspiron 8000 nVidia laptop at the moment) basically offers a similar
feature. I know that my DIVX video is improved tenfold when processed
through TVTool and that includes both filling the screen properly and
providing strong contrast and rich colours. Without TVTool the s-video
output is pretty rubbish. TVTool offers a transformation.

As I have no recent experience of ATI graphics or Powerstrip I just plumped
for nVidia as I have more recent experience of getting that to work. I do
have a 6 year old Dell Inspiron 7000 with ATI graphics so perhaps I'll see
if Powerstrip will work with that and have a bit of a tinker :-)

--
Please quote "easytiger" for your PlusNet referral :-)

- Hauppauge PVR-150-MCE TV card

Im curious why you went with the 150 card instead of the 250?

In ,
Stephen Neal wrote:


"Tiny Tim" wrote in message
...
[snip]

The box will be feeding a PAL widescreen TV through s-video (or possibly a
VGA-RGB converter lead). Given that, would I gain any advantage by getting
a higher spec card or by choosing a budget ATI rather than nVidia? If my
needs change I can always upgrade memory and video in the future but right
now I need to keep the price down. I figure the rest of the components
should last me a good while to come.

As per the other thread we are both contributing to - AIUI nVidia cards
don't support a simple VGA-SCART video cable in the same way that ATIs do.
Think the ATIs are the only ones that happily generate composite syncs (as
required for SCART) and an interlaced video output (as required for normal
TVs) on their VGA outputs.

Both nVidia and ATI cards will happily generate a TV-out - but this is not
RGB and is a processed version (rather than a clean version) of the Windows
desktop. (It is scaled and flicker fixed)

Also consider a Matrox. They support composite sync too and the S-Video
TV-out is allegedly much better than Nvidia or ATI.

As I have yet to see an ATI actually running RGB into a TV and displaying
video I have no idea if the quality is better or worse - though others say
it is better. Until I see how it copes with interlace I can't really
comment further.

IME with the ATI and Voodoo 3, the interlacing makes the dekstop quite
unpleasant, but not impossible, to use. It's fine for DivX, with RGB
giving considerably more vivid colours than S-Video. For Tiny Tim the
big question is whether his TV card records interlaced or not and/or
whether MCE supports software deinterlacing. Matrox cards can sync
interlaced MPEG to the TV-out, otherwise if you're using RGB or
otherwise displaying PAL without hardware scaling etc, you'll need
software deinterlacing. The results should look OK [1] with a CPU as
fast as an A64; my 1.2GHz Celeron was just about unable to keep up, or
completely overwhelmed, depending on what software I used.

[1] I find it makes things look somehow slightly soft and unrealistic,
but it isn't distracting.

--
The address in the Reply-To is genuine and should not be edited.
See http://www.realh.co.uk/contact.html for more reliable contact addresses.

wrote:
- Hauppauge PVR-150-MCE TV card

Im curious why you went with the 150 card instead of the 250?

AIUI the 150 is a brand new model and is cheaper. Comparing specs side by
side there appears to be nothing missing in terms of features if you are
using MCE whereas the 250 provides more software/function to run on plain XP
that are simply not required if you have MCE, but do add to the cost. The
MCE version is the same as the non MCE version but deletes the remote, which
is superfluous if using the Microsoft MCE remote.

Details here - http://www.hauppauge.com/Pages/produ...pvr150mce.html
and here - http://www.hauppauge.com/Pages/produ...pvr250mce.html

The sections for MCE users are the same, but for XP users there is a whole
stream of extra features/software with the 250 that I do not require.

--
Please quote "easytiger" for your PlusNet referral :-)

Tony Houghton wrote:
In ,
Stephen Neal wrote:
Both nVidia and ATI cards will happily generate a TV-out - but this
is not RGB and is a processed version (rather than a clean version)
of the Windows desktop. (It is scaled and flicker fixed)

Also consider a Matrox. They support composite sync too and the
S-Video TV-out is allegedly much better than Nvidia or ATI.

As I have yet to see an ATI actually running RGB into a TV and
displaying video I have no idea if the quality is better or worse -
though others say it is better. Until I see how it copes with
interlace I can't really comment further.

IME with the ATI and Voodoo 3, the interlacing makes the dekstop quite
unpleasant, but not impossible, to use. It's fine for DivX, with RGB
giving considerably more vivid colours than S-Video. For Tiny Tim the
big question is whether his TV card records interlaced or not and/or
whether MCE supports software deinterlacing. Matrox cards can sync
interlaced MPEG to the TV-out, otherwise if you're using RGB or
otherwise displaying PAL without hardware scaling etc, you'll need
software deinterlacing. The results should look OK [1] with a CPU as
fast as an A64; my 1.2GHz Celeron was just about unable to keep up, or
completely overwhelmed, depending on what software I used.

[1] I find it makes things look somehow slightly soft and unrealistic,
but it isn't distracting.

I'm allowing myself to be guided by the hardware compatibility list here -
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/m...erlisting.mspx
for MCE 2005. I see no mention of Matrox or Voodoo so have no information on
which to choose such a card. If the card doesn't work fully with MCE 2005
then it is not of interest to me.

But perhaps I'm misunderstanding something. As a laptop user of almost 10
years I have never really bothered about graphics before as everything has
worked just fine on the TFT display, and I don't play games. As my video
signal from the STB will be interlaced PAL and my TV expects interlaced PAL
then I do not understand why I should be concerned about software
de-interlacing - or is that only where DIVX is concerned? If so, my current
nVidia Geforce2go 32MB laptop graphics card seems to manage quite well at
producing a watchable TV picture through s-video so long as I use TVTool to
magically transform the picture. WMP 10 uses about 50% cpu of my PIII 900
processor when playing a DIVX movie.

So if I've got the wrong end of the stick please enlighten me, but I think I
need to stick with nVidia or ATI.

Cheers :-)

--
Please quote "easytiger" for your PlusNet referral :-)

Voodoo3? thats how old? its not surprising there are issues.

"Tony Houghton" wrote in message
. uk...
In ,
Stephen Neal wrote:


"Tiny Tim" wrote in message
...
[snip]

The box will be feeding a PAL widescreen TV through s-video (or possibly
a
VGA-RGB converter lead). Given that, would I gain any advantage by
getting
a higher spec card or by choosing a budget ATI rather than nVidia? If my
needs change I can always upgrade memory and video in the future but
right
now I need to keep the price down. I figure the rest of the components
should last me a good while to come.

As per the other thread we are both contributing to - AIUI nVidia cards
don't support a simple VGA-SCART video cable in the same way that ATIs
do.
Think the ATIs are the only ones that happily generate composite syncs
(as
required for SCART) and an interlaced video output (as required for
normal
TVs) on their VGA outputs.

Both nVidia and ATI cards will happily generate a TV-out - but this is
not
RGB and is a processed version (rather than a clean version) of the
Windows
desktop. (It is scaled and flicker fixed)

Also consider a Matrox. They support composite sync too and the S-Video
TV-out is allegedly much better than Nvidia or ATI.

As I have yet to see an ATI actually running RGB into a TV and displaying
video I have no idea if the quality is better or worse - though others
say
it is better. Until I see how it copes with interlace I can't really
comment further.

IME with the ATI and Voodoo 3, the interlacing makes the dekstop quite
unpleasant, but not impossible, to use. It's fine for DivX, with RGB
giving considerably more vivid colours than S-Video. For Tiny Tim the
big question is whether his TV card records interlaced or not and/or
whether MCE supports software deinterlacing. Matrox cards can sync
interlaced MPEG to the TV-out, otherwise if you're using RGB or
otherwise displaying PAL without hardware scaling etc, you'll need
software deinterlacing. The results should look OK [1] with a CPU as
fast as an A64; my 1.2GHz Celeron was just about unable to keep up, or
completely overwhelmed, depending on what software I used.

[1] I find it makes things look somehow slightly soft and unrealistic,
but it isn't distracting.

--
The address in the Reply-To is genuine and should not be edited.
See http://www.realh.co.uk/contact.html for more reliable contact
addresses.

In ,
Philip Taylor wrote:

Voodoo3? thats how old? its not surprising there are issues.

It doesn't really have any disadvantages for 2D compared to ATI or
NVidia. Like them it can display 800x600 with hardware scaling and
deinterlacing, with the scaling destroying the quality. Displaying a
native PAL resolution, and using software deinterlacing when necessary,
gives better quality.

--
The address in the Reply-To is genuine and should not be edited.
See http://www.realh.co.uk/contact.html for more reliable contact addresses.

Tiny Tim wrote:
- 250GB SATA HDD (haven't chosen model - any suggestions?)

Any reason for going SATA? At this point in time, there is no benefit to
SATA, especially if all you're doing is HTPC: the HDD activity is not too
intensive.

- 2*256MB PC3200 DDR400 ram (any reason not to simply get budget
Crucial/generic memory?)

I'd be tempted to go up to 1GB here. No reason not to get budget RAM: high
performance is not the issue with XP MCE, but the more memory the better.
With a HTPC, you don't want pauses as the OS swaps out to disk.

- Hauppauge PVR-150-MCE TV card (to record from Sky satellite set top
box - no UHF TV required)

Is this available in the UK yet? Also consider the Black Gold DVB-T or
Nebula cards.

- nVidia FX5200 128MB DVI video card (no brand chosen but anything
cheapish so long as it keeps MCE 2005 happy)

I'd go for an ATI 9600 non-pro 128MB. It has no fan and you can use the
VGA-out to feed your RGB-enabled SCART on your telly. Alternatively,
consider passively cooled versions of the 9600Pro or 9800Pro. Although
another poster recommended the Matrox card, which does have excellent
TV-out, MCE2005 requires a VMR9 capable card (i.e. DirectX9), which the
Matrox isn't.

"Tiny Tim" wrote in message
...
Stephen Neal wrote:
"Tiny Tim" wrote in message
...
[snip]
[snip]
Thanks for the reply. I'll take on board what you say about ATI generating
composite syncs, although I wonder whether TVTool ( I use that on my Dell
Inspiron 8000 nVidia laptop at the moment) basically offers a similar
feature. I know that my DIVX video is improved tenfold when processed
through TVTool and that includes both filling the screen properly and
providing strong contrast and rich colours. Without TVTool the s-video
output is pretty rubbish. TVTool offers a transformation.

I doubt it - I also use TV Tool on my laptop, but this is specifically
designed for controlling the TV output bits of video cards, and the
VGA-SCART solution is designed to completely ignore these bits of the card.
Instead it is driven directly by the RGB VGA analogue outputs that would
otherwise be driving a VGA CRT or LCD - in other words the native output of
the video card.

The TV Output - and the bits that TV Tool control - are basically extra bits
that derive a composite or s-video and standard TV line/field rate video
signal from the video card - they don't take the native output and feed it
to the TV. They will obviously generate composite syncs for the composite
video feed - that is the only possible syncs that you can use for a
composite or s-video feed. TV Tool does allow you to improve the quality of
your composite and s-video output - but only a bit - you are still limited
by the inherent quality limitations of the subcarrier based chroma system
used by s-video and composite (they are effectively identical video
signals - it is just that the chroma is physically separated by being
carried on different wires in the case of s-video!) They are nowhere near
the quality of RGB.

However AIUI the ATI series of cards are unusual in allowing their VGA
outputs (i.e. the 15 pin sub-mini) to output either separate H and V sync
pulses - as per the VGA standard - as well as allowing them to generate
mixed or composite syncs (where the H+V are presented on the same pin). I
believe they are also unusual in allowing an interlaced output (where
alternate Windows desktop lines are output in alternate fields - this gives
huge amounts of flickering when using normal Windows applications, because
single pixel lines only appear in every other field (so flicker at 25Hz not
50Hz) - but Windows Media Center's menus, and normal video, look fine.

(Composite syncs can be easily created using a little extra circuitry - but
the hassle and cost of this is obviously not a problem with ATIs!
Interlacing is much more crucial)


As I have no recent experience of ATI graphics or Powerstrip I just
plumped for nVidia as I have more recent experience of getting that to
work. I do have a 6 year old Dell Inspiron 7000 with ATI graphics so
perhaps I'll see if Powerstrip will work with that and have a bit of a
tinker :-)


AIUI older video cards may be more easily persuadable to do this than newer
ones, however they may not be as MCE compatible.

Anyway - I've managed to build my cable (horrid gash thing made up from a
dead scart-scart lead and soldered rather too hastily) - to check it works.
All I can say is WOW! The quality improvement over S-video is amazing, and
the image fills the screen.

I'm currently running in 720x576 mode - so the desktop is slightly chopped
off at the edges - but it means the TV picture is displayed beautifully.
MCE 2005 looks great, Windows normal stuff looks horrid! I used a second
computer to drive the MCE machine using VNC - as that is the neatest way of
configuring a PC when you have no way of looking at its video output!

Next step is to attempt a 16:9 1024x576 or 1080x576 mode so that I get a
16:9 Windows desktop (rather than 4:3 stretched) - and don't have to switch
ZOOM modes in MCE to watch 4:3 and 16:9 stuff the right shape.

Fingers crossed!

Steve

- Hauppauge PVR-150-MCE TV card (to record from Sky satellite set top
box - no UHF TV required)

Is this available in the UK yet? Also consider the Black Gold DVB-T or
Nebula cards.

Don't consider a DVB-T card - you need an analogue card to record from Sky.
Stick with the Hauppauge!

Terry

In ,
Tiny Tim wrote:

I'm allowing myself to be guided by the hardware compatibility list here -
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/m...erlisting.mspx
for MCE 2005. I see no mention of Matrox or Voodoo so have no information on
which to choose such a card. If the card doesn't work fully with MCE 2005
then it is not of interest to me.

MCE isn't really designed for what you want though. They've only really
considered using a monitor as the display device. The only way you're
going to get a TV picture anywhere near as good as a STB is with
something other than NVidia or ATI TV-out. If MCE or even XP don't
support the alternatvies you'll have to use Linux - but TV is one of the
hardest things to get working in Linux, I can tell you!

There's no need for at least a Radeon 9800 and why does a wireless
router have to be certified for a HTPC? The list just shows who was
willing to pay MS's extortion money and which of their products they
felt were worth pushing.

But perhaps I'm misunderstanding something. As a laptop user of almost 10
years I have never really bothered about graphics before as everything has
worked just fine on the TFT display, and I don't play games. As my video
signal from the STB will be interlaced PAL and my TV expects interlaced PAL
then I do not understand why I should be concerned about software
de-interlacing - or is that only where DIVX is concerned? If so, my current
nVidia Geforce2go 32MB laptop graphics card seems to manage quite well at
producing a watchable TV picture through s-video so long as I use TVTool to
magically transform the picture. WMP 10 uses about 50% cpu of my PIII 900
processor when playing a DIVX movie.

AIUI you only need to worry about interlacing if the programme/film is
interlaced. I've never had interlacing problems with a DivX, only with
some DVB programmes. On a monitor you get some jaggedness if it isn't
processed, and on an interlaced TV the violent juddering is enough to
make you sick. The problem is because it's crucial to synchronise the
interlacing of the source with the TV output, and most graphics cards
can't do that.

--
The address in the Reply-To is genuine and should not be edited.
See http://www.realh.co.uk/contact.html for more reliable contact addresses.

-= a q u a b u b b l e =- wrote:
Tiny Tim wrote:
- 250GB SATA HDD (haven't chosen model - any suggestions?)

Any reason for going SATA? At this point in time, there is no benefit
to SATA, especially if all you're doing is HTPC: the HDD activity is
not too intensive.

Well I chose SATA because the Shuttle supports it and it appears to be the
next "great thing" and for a 250GB drive the price difference is only £7 on
a figure of ~£100.

- 2*256MB PC3200 DDR400 ram (any reason not to simply get budget
Crucial/generic memory?)

I'd be tempted to go up to 1GB here. No reason not to get budget RAM:
high performance is not the issue with XP MCE, but the more memory
the better. With a HTPC, you don't want pauses as the OS swaps out to
disk.

I'd be surprised if there was any swapping, given the only multi-tasking
demands will be to record a TV programme while watching or listening to
something else. I do not intend to use the machine for all its computing
power - simply as a media/entertainment center. My laptop, which has plenty
of concurrent apps running, does not seem to be unduly burdened by paging. I
see many retail media center PCs come with only 512MB.

- Hauppauge PVR-150-MCE TV card (to record from Sky satellite set top
box - no UHF TV required)

Is this available in the UK yet? Also consider the Black Gold DVB-T or
Nebula cards.

144 listed in stock at Savastore and the price is v.good too. I don't see
the Black Gold or Nebula listed on the HCL. I also don't want DVB-T as I
shall be using Sky as my TV source.

- nVidia FX5200 128MB DVI video card (no brand chosen but anything
cheapish so long as it keeps MCE 2005 happy)

I'd go for an ATI 9600 non-pro 128MB. It has no fan and you can use
the VGA-out to feed your RGB-enabled SCART on your telly.
Alternatively, consider passively cooled versions of the 9600Pro or
9800Pro. Although another poster recommended the Matrox card, which
does have excellent TV-out, MCE2005 requires a VMR9 capable card
(i.e. DirectX9), which the Matrox isn't.

It seems I should definitely switch to ATI :-)

Thanks for your feedback :-)

--
Please quote "easytiger" for your PlusNet referral :-)

Terry Walsh wrote:
- Hauppauge PVR-150-MCE TV card (to record from Sky satellite set
top box - no UHF TV required)

Is this available in the UK yet? Also consider the Black Gold DVB-T
or Nebula cards.

Don't consider a DVB-T card - you need an analogue card to record
from Sky. Stick with the Hauppauge!

Terry

Cheers. That's what I thought. But I've only been looking into this for the
last 7-10 days so I'm not certain of anything. It's good to have it
confirmed.

--
Please quote "easytiger" for your PlusNet referral :-)

In ,
Tiny Tim wrote:

-= a q u a b u b b l e =- wrote:
Tiny Tim wrote:

- nVidia FX5200 128MB DVI video card (no brand chosen but anything
cheapish so long as it keeps MCE 2005 happy)

I'd go for an ATI 9600 non-pro 128MB. It has no fan and you can use
the VGA-out to feed your RGB-enabled SCART on your telly.
Alternatively, consider passively cooled versions of the 9600Pro or
9800Pro. Although another poster recommended the Matrox card, which
does have excellent TV-out, MCE2005 requires a VMR9 capable card
(i.e. DirectX9), which the Matrox isn't.

Ah, so that's why the graphics card requirements are so high (but why no
R9500/9600)?

It seems I should definitely switch to ATI :-)

Only if you're planning to use VGA to RGB, in which case you'll probably
find this invaluable: http://www.idiots.org.uk/vga_rgb_scart/. And who
knows whether you'll be OK with the interlacing? If you're planning to
stick to S-Video you might be better off with NVidia. I think 5200s are
cheaper than 9600s, and a while ago someone said their TV-out quality is
better. I haven't tried one myself, but I can confirm that my cheapo
9200SE's TV-out was very ropy, and my Sapphire 9000 was hardly better.

--
The address in the Reply-To is genuine and should not be edited.
See http://www.realh.co.uk/contact.html for more reliable contact addresses.

In ,
Stephen Neal wrote:

Anyway - I've managed to build my cable (horrid gash thing made up from a
dead scart-scart lead and soldered rather too hastily) - to check it works.
All I can say is WOW! The quality improvement over S-video is amazing, and
the image fills the screen.

I think most of the degradation in quality comes from the cheap scaling
circuitry on the cards rather than being inherent to S-Video. IME with
cards that are capable of displaying PAL without the scaling - such as a
Voodoo 3 or Creative DXR3 MPEG decoder - the colours are faded compared
to RGB, but the picture is very crisp and hardly distinguishable from
RGB in that respect, whereas composite suffers from colour crawl.

I actually get a better picture overall from my PC with a Freeview card
and one of the above S-Video outputs than RGB from my Sky box, because
Sky use lower rate MPEG. It's quite noticeable with the snooker.

I'm currently running in 720x576 mode - so the desktop is slightly chopped
off at the edges - but it means the TV picture is displayed beautifully.
MCE 2005 looks great, Windows normal stuff looks horrid! I used a second
computer to drive the MCE machine using VNC - as that is the neatest way of
configuring a PC when you have no way of looking at its video output!

I don't suppose you know whether MCE can handle displaying interlaced
DVB on an interlaced output?

Next step is to attempt a 16:9 1024x576 or 1080x576 mode so that I get a
16:9 Windows desktop (rather than 4:3 stretched) - and don't have to switch
ZOOM modes in MCE to watch 4:3 and 16:9 stuff the right shape.

I never bothered with that. Anamorphic DVB and DVD are the same
resolution as 4:3, they just use stretched pixels, so you're no better
off with a higher resolution and a software option to match the picture
and TV ratios.

--
The address in the Reply-To is genuine and should not be edited.
See http://www.realh.co.uk/contact.html for more reliable contact addresses.

"Tony Houghton" wrote in message
. uk...
In ,
Stephen Neal wrote:

Anyway - I've managed to build my cable (horrid gash thing made up from a
dead scart-scart lead and soldered rather too hastily) - to check it
works.
All I can say is WOW! The quality improvement over S-video is amazing,
and
the image fills the screen.

I think most of the degradation in quality comes from the cheap scaling
circuitry on the cards rather than being inherent to S-Video.

Yep - I think they soften and blur rather than process properly.

IME with
cards that are capable of displaying PAL without the scaling - such as a
Voodoo 3 or Creative DXR3 MPEG decoder - the colours are faded compared
to RGB, but the picture is very crisp and hardly distinguishable from
RGB in that respect, whereas composite suffers from colour crawl.

Hmm - I have a RealMagic XCard (and work with SDI serial digital, RGB,
Composite, S-video and DV-Firewire video stuff every day so am sensitive to
picture quality I guess) - and still massively prefer the RGB over the
S-video. Whilst I accept that the lack of dot crawl is a major benefit of
S-video over composite, I still find the overall chroma resolution reduction
annoying, and also the "processed" look just a bit less than ideal - so will
always go for RGB if possible.

I agree that the improvement gained by feeding VGA to RGB SCART over S-video
TV out is more than just a function of RGB vs S-Video though - the
rescaling, flicker-reduction, re-interlacing etc. all have a part to play.


I actually get a better picture overall from my PC with a Freeview card
and one of the above S-Video outputs than RGB from my Sky box, because
Sky use lower rate MPEG. It's quite noticeable with the snooker.

Isn't the Snooker on the BBC - if so the compression on satellite is nothing
to do with Sky - the BBC handle their own satellite uplinks ;-)

I have both Sky and Freeview, both as set top boxes and PC sources, so can
comment quite effectively. In my experience some channels are better on
DTT, others on DSat. ITV1 has historically been much better on Freeview -
as it is 720x576 on DTT - and a higher data rate, whereas it is heavily
compressed and only 544x576 on DSat (aka Sky - though again Sky have nothing
to do with ITV on satellite - NTL look after the compression and uplinking
in this case)

The best pictures I have so far had were from an XCard delivering an RGB
SCART signal from my Nova-T PCI card. However the TVEdia application is just
not quite there yet - it suffers massively in the support of DVB and EPGs
when compared to MCE 2005 - hence me making the switch and moving to a
Radeon RGB solution.

So far, although I have yet to get an entirely stable picture (my DVD
recorder is in circuit and acting as a TBC but knocking the edge off the
picture and delaying it a bit), the RGB output is almost as good as the
XCard.


I'm currently running in 720x576 mode - so the desktop is slightly
chopped
off at the edges - but it means the TV picture is displayed beautifully.
MCE 2005 looks great, Windows normal stuff looks horrid! I used a second
computer to drive the MCE machine using VNC - as that is the neatest way
of
configuring a PC when you have no way of looking at its video output!

I don't suppose you know whether MCE can handle displaying interlaced
DVB on an interlaced output?


I'm not sure - I'm pretty certain Im getting 50Hz motion (not 25Hz flicker
vision) - the tickers on the ITV News Channel and Sky, as well as rolling
credits - look fluid rather than jerku, and there is no double imaging. This
could of-course be 50Hz interlaced DVB up converted to 50Hz progressive in
the card and then downconverted to 50Hz interlaced again for output. I will
fiddle with the nVidia decoder settings to see what happens if I turn all
the de-interlacing off (or can force weave or film mode - which should mean
all lines remain un-processed I think)

Next step is to attempt a 16:9 1024x576 or 1080x576 mode so that I get a
16:9 Windows desktop (rather than 4:3 stretched) - and don't have to
switch
ZOOM modes in MCE to watch 4:3 and 16:9 stuff the right shape.

I never bothered with that. Anamorphic DVB and DVD are the same
resolution as 4:3, they just use stretched pixels, so you're no better
off with a higher resolution and a software option to match the picture
and TV ratios.


Ah - but it makes MCE much nicer to use.

1. If you configure a 1024x576 mode then Windows thinks you are running in
16:9 and so the text on-screen in Windows and Windows Apps remains the right
shape (I am sensitive to stretched pictures)
2. You get more information in the TV Guide as Windows thinks it is running
on a wider desktop (so you get an extra 30 mins of listings in TV Guide for
example)
3. You never have to change aspect ratios, 4:3 stuff is displayed in
pillarbox, 16:9 stuff as full-width. (If Windows thinks you have a 4:3
display you have to force 16:9 stuff into stretch mode in MCE - with your TV
in 16:9 you then get the right shape pictures. However 4:3 stuff then is
also stretched, so you have to reset your TV to 4:3.)

It isn't a resolution thing in this case - it is a Windows/ease of use
thing.

Steve

"Tony Houghton" wrote in message
. uk...
In ,
Tiny Tim wrote:

I'm allowing myself to be guided by the hardware compatibility list
here -
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/m...erlisting.mspx
for MCE 2005. I see no mention of Matrox or Voodoo so have no information
on
which to choose such a card. If the card doesn't work fully with MCE 2005
then it is not of interest to me.

MCE isn't really designed for what you want though. They've only really
considered using a monitor as the display device. The only way you're
going to get a TV picture anywhere near as good as a STB is with
something other than NVidia or ATI TV-out. If MCE or even XP don't
support the alternatvies you'll have to use Linux - but TV is one of the
hardest things to get working in Linux, I can tell you!

Hmm - I've managed to improve significantly over the TV-outs with the
VGA-RGB SCART connection using an ATI Radeon. This is, at first glance,
pretty close to set top box quality. Massively better than S-video or
Composite from a TV out.


There's no need for at least a Radeon 9800 and why does a wireless
router have to be certified for a HTPC? The list just shows who was
willing to pay MS's extortion money and which of their products they
felt were worth pushing.

I think they rate wireless routers to ensure that they are capable of
streaming 9Mbs MPEG2 video - effectively you should be using 11g or 11a - as
11b won't cut it. (11a is apparently slightly better as it is out of the
common 2.4GHz band that video senders etc. also use - though my 11g system
works fine for streaming video and DVD stuff around the house)

I guess the MCE logo is to guarantee it will work - otherwise people might
by 11b stuff? I agree it is a bit tenuous though!


But perhaps I'm misunderstanding something. As a laptop user of almost 10
years I have never really bothered about graphics before as everything
has
worked just fine on the TFT display, and I don't play games. As my video
signal from the STB will be interlaced PAL and my TV expects interlaced
PAL
then I do not understand why I should be concerned about software
de-interlacing - or is that only where DIVX is concerned? If so, my
current
nVidia Geforce2go 32MB laptop graphics card seems to manage quite well at
producing a watchable TV picture through s-video so long as I use TVTool
to
magically transform the picture. WMP 10 uses about 50% cpu of my PIII 900
processor when playing a DIVX movie.

AIUI you only need to worry about interlacing if the programme/film is
interlaced.

Yep in 50Hz regions - de-interlacing is only an issue for interlaced
sources - not stuff sourced from film or progressive video.

Modern video cards use hardware acceleration to allow quite complex
de-interlacing algorithms to be deployed (as well as to assist in MPEG2
decoding) - meaning that 50Hz interlaced stuff is now often converted to
50Hz progressive, rather than 25Hz progressive (as used to be the case) This
means the motion rendition isn't dropped to half - and things don't judder
as much as they did.

If you are then re-interlacing for output using a 1:1 mapping between source
video and output video (and aren't scaling in between) then you could
theoretically get away with no de-interlacing (or "Film" mode) though - but
the minute you scaled the video using a PC it would start tearing as the 1:1
mapping would be broken and video from the two separate fields would be
moved around between the two output fields - causing horrible problems.
(This would probably make the "video in a box" modes on MCE look a bit pants
I guess - though the scaling is so extreme it might not)

I've never had interlacing problems with a DivX, only with
some DVB programmes.

Divx is almost always progressive - so won't require de-interlacing. It is
normally 25 or 30fps rather than 50 or 60fps as well IME.

On a monitor you get some jaggedness if it isn't
processed, and on an interlaced TV the violent juddering is enough to
make you sick. The problem is because it's crucial to synchronise the
interlacing of the source with the TV output, and most graphics cards
can't do that.

Yep - you can get the fields the wrong way round (which means that the
motion is backwards within the frame - horrid)

It seems - however nasty it may seem - that de-interlacing and
re-interlacing using a decent quality algorithm and video card is the least
worst option available these days. As I say - the revelation I've had
building the SCART cable this afternoon means I'm really quite pleased with
MCE 2005 and my Radeon now.

Overscan in the menus is the major problem to beat at the moment. I've got
a 1024 x 576 mode running - but the MCE 2005 menus are too close to the
edges of Overscan for this to be fantastic. I've tried a 960x540 mode - but
this drops the picture quality a bit too much (so the 1:1 mapping between
input and output DVB and DVD must be paying off even if de-interlacing and
re-interlacing is taking place)

Steve

Terry Walsh wrote:
- Hauppauge PVR-150-MCE TV card (to record from Sky satellite set
top box - no UHF TV required)

Is this available in the UK yet? Also consider the Black Gold DVB-T
or Nebula cards.

Don't consider a DVB-T card - you need an analogue card to record
from Sky. Stick with the Hauppauge!

Sorry yeah... misread that bit! It's been a long day! ;o)

Tiny Tim wrote:
-= a q u a b u b b l e =- wrote:
Tiny Tim wrote:
- 250GB SATA HDD (haven't chosen model - any suggestions?)

Any reason for going SATA? At this point in time, there is no benefit
to SATA, especially if all you're doing is HTPC: the HDD activity is
not too intensive.

Well I chose SATA because the Shuttle supports it and it appears to
be the next "great thing" and for a 250GB drive the price difference
is only £7 on a figure of ~£100.

In which case, you can save yourself £7 ;o)

- 2*256MB PC3200 DDR400 ram (any reason not to simply get budget
Crucial/generic memory?)

I'd be tempted to go up to 1GB here. No reason not to get budget RAM:
high performance is not the issue with XP MCE, but the more memory
the better. With a HTPC, you don't want pauses as the OS swaps out to
disk.

I'd be surprised if there was any swapping, given the only
multi-tasking demands will be to record a TV programme while watching
or listening to something else. I do not intend to use the machine
for all its computing power - simply as a media/entertainment center.
My laptop, which has plenty of concurrent apps running, does not seem
to be unduly burdened by paging. I see many retail media center PCs
come with only 512MB.

This is true, and its only a preference thing; I find that 1GB of memory
with any XP-based OS works better and provides more flexibility (e.g.
registry tweaks to keep kernal from paging out to disk etc). From my
experience, even if you're not using your full memory allocation, Windows
can do strange things with its swapping.

- Hauppauge PVR-150-MCE TV card (to record from Sky satellite set
top box - no UHF TV required)

Is this available in the UK yet? Also consider the Black Gold DVB-T
or Nebula cards.

144 listed in stock at Savastore and the price is v.good too. I don't
see the Black Gold or Nebula listed on the HCL. I also don't want
DVB-T as I shall be using Sky as my TV source.

Sorry yes, I misread your original post about this... if you want the very
best input quality, have you considered the Sweetspot card, which has RGB
input?

http://www.pluggedin.tv/sweetspot/

It's not on the MCE2005 HCL yet, but I'm not aware of any problems with it.
However, you might want to check out the forums on http://www.tv-cards.com

- nVidia FX5200 128MB DVI video card (no brand chosen but anything
cheapish so long as it keeps MCE 2005 happy)

I'd go for an ATI 9600 non-pro 128MB. It has no fan and you can use
the VGA-out to feed your RGB-enabled SCART on your telly.
Alternatively, consider passively cooled versions of the 9600Pro or
9800Pro. Although another poster recommended the Matrox card, which
does have excellent TV-out, MCE2005 requires a VMR9 capable card
(i.e. DirectX9), which the Matrox isn't.

It seems I should definitely switch to ATI :-)

If you're anal about video quality like I am, then it's a good choice for
not too big an outlay.

Thanks for your feedback :-)

No probs... sorry I misread your original post!

-= a q u a b u b b l e =- wrote:
... have you considered the Sweetspot card, which has RGB input?

http://www.pluggedin.tv/sweetspot/

It's not on the MCE2005 HCL yet, but I'm not aware of any problems
with it. However, you might want to check out the forums on
http://www.tv-cards.com

Hmmm... it seems that it isn't compatible with MCE2005. Whether this is just
a driver issue or simply that it will _never_ be compatible is another
matter.

Tony Houghton wrote:
-= a q u a b u b b l e =- wrote:
Tiny Tim wrote:

- nVidia FX5200 128MB DVI video card (no brand chosen but anything
cheapish so long as it keeps MCE 2005 happy)

I'd go for an ATI 9600 non-pro 128MB. It has no fan and you can use
the VGA-out to feed your RGB-enabled SCART on your telly.
Alternatively, consider passively cooled versions of the 9600Pro or
9800Pro. Although another poster recommended the Matrox card, which
does have excellent TV-out, MCE2005 requires a VMR9 capable card
(i.e. DirectX9), which the Matrox isn't.

Ah, so that's why the graphics card requirements are so high (but why
no R9500/9600)?

Good question: they definitely work! Perhaps its some kind of deal between
ATI and MS to promote their latest cards? For a HTPC, you definitely don't
want a feckin huge fan on your graphics card and you aren't really likely to
be playing PC games through your telly either!

Stephen Neal wrote:
Overscan in the menus is the major problem to beat at the moment. I've got
a 1024 x 576 mode running - but the MCE 2005 menus are too
close to the edges of Overscan for this to be fantastic. I've tried
a 960x540 mode - but this drops the picture quality a bit too much
(so the 1:1 mapping between input and output DVB and DVD must be
paying off even if de-interlacing and re-interlacing is taking place)

If you're using a DVB-T tuner, have you tried a non-widescreen ratio: this
might fit better? (You can then set the "zoom" in the menu)

How bad is the overscan; is it on all the edges? Have you tried tweaking
your TV set?

questions... questions... :o)

-= a q u a b u b b l e =- wrote:
Stephen Neal wrote:
If you're using a DVB-T tuner, have you tried a non-widescreen ratio:
this might fit better? (You can then set the "zoom" in the menu)

Just seen your other post... you can ignore this question! :o)

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:30:11 -0000, "Tiny Tim"
wrote:

I have now definitely decided to build my own Media Center PC as I can't
find anything available off the shelf in the UK that meets my needs and
budget. I would appreciate any comments on my proposed spec in case I have
made a boo-boo

- Shuttle XPC SN95G5
- AMD Athlon 64 3000+ Socket 939
- 250GB SATA HDD (haven't chosen model - any suggestions?)
- 2*256MB PC3200 DDR400 ram (any reason not to simply get budget
Crucial/generic memory?)
- NEC 3500A 16X D/L DVD+-RW
- Hauppauge PVR-150-MCE TV card (to record from Sky satellite set top box -
no UHF TV required)
- nVidia FX5200 128MB DVI video card (no brand chosen but anything cheapish
so long as it keeps MCE 2005 happy)
- MCE 2005 remote control
- Win XP MCE 2005 OEM

Seems this activity is the flavour of the month. I've just started
investigating building a media centre machine as well (my first home
build box), and am planning to use Win XP MCE too. My spec is similar
to yours, as follows:

Shuttle XPC ST62K - this is the very quiet one. Very important in a
living room based machine, to my mind. It also has an integrated ATI
RADEON 9100 based 2D/3D graphics controller, saving the cost, space
and heat of a separate card
2 * 256 RAM - considered going to 1GB, but not sure it's worth it.
AMD Athlon XP2200 - no need for any more raw power, imo
Disk - any old IDE drive, up to 160Gb (which will give 80 hours of
video - more than enough, I think)
Hauppauge PVR-350 - except I've just realised this doesn't support MCE
(or vice versa). Hardware support for MCE is a pain I could do
without right now.

The bit I'm vague about at the moment is all the stuff around
connecting it to the TV. I just want this box to sit with the other
home cinema kit, and not use a separate monitor (what's the longest a
monitor cable can be, anyway?). My TV is a 3 year old Sony Triniton
KV-32FX60D. According to the book of words, it accepts "Normal
audio/video and RGB" on Scart 1, and "Normal audio/video and s-video"
on Scart 2 and 3. So, what feed will I actually take out of the PC,
and what cable will I use? Will I need one of these modded cables with
a couple of capacitors in it? Is the fact that the TV runs at 100 Hz
a factor too?


--
This sig under construction

The sections for MCE users are the same, but for XP users there is a whole
stream of extra features/software with the 250 that I do not require.

Ahh.... Im all clear now

Thanks so much for that info!!

Question tho.... can one run the 150 card on a system with XP Pro
only? No MCE?

I don't have MCE os yet..... but thought maybe i could find a card
that would run on plain ole XP pro for now and go to MCE later. Can
that be done?

"-= a q u a b u b b l e =-" wrote in
message ...
Stephen Neal wrote:
Overscan in the menus is the major problem to beat at the moment. I've
got a 1024 x 576 mode running - but the MCE 2005 menus are too
close to the edges of Overscan for this to be fantastic. I've tried
a 960x540 mode - but this drops the picture quality a bit too much
(so the 1:1 mapping between input and output DVB and DVD must be
paying off even if de-interlacing and re-interlacing is taking place)

If you're using a DVB-T tuner, have you tried a non-widescreen ratio: this
might fit better? (You can then set the "zoom" in the menu)

Yep - initially tried a Windows resolution closer to 4:3 - but then you have
to keep fiddling with the aspect ratio options on your TV to get 4:3 stuff
the right shape!


How bad is the overscan; is it on all the edges? Have you tried tweaking
your TV set?

Overscan on the TV has been tweaked to be roughly right and centred
horizontally and vertically using a testcard recorded as a menu on a VideoCD
and replayed using a DVD player. Am now sorting how to source this from the
PC to re-tweak my TV.

However I've designed my own Powerstrip horizontal line timings (which have
got rid of the slight jitter I was seeing, and now have timings much closer
to the real PAL spec) Just got to fiddle with the vertical field timings
now.

However comparing the active video from a Sky receiver and my PC the picture
is pretty much the same width, and height, but a bit lower on my PC (the
vertical timing being wrong I guess).

This implies to me that the actual video timing coming out of the PC is OK -
just that Windows is so wedded to the idea of putting stuff all the way to
the edge of active that it is annoying. (If only they had an option of
winding the top/bottom/left/right bits of the desktop into a virtual window
within the desktop we'd be fine) I'm happy with overscan of video - it is
designed for this - and much nicer than black edges on everything. Even
Media Center's menus are a bit marginal though - if only they followed
broadcast safe area rules!!!

Steve

"-= a q u a b u b b l e =-" wrote in
message ...
-= a q u a b u b b l e =- wrote:
... have you considered the Sweetspot card, which has RGB input?

http://www.pluggedin.tv/sweetspot/

It's not on the MCE2005 HCL yet, but I'm not aware of any problems
with it. However, you might want to check out the forums on
http://www.tv-cards.com

Hmmm... it seems that it isn't compatible with MCE2005. Whether this is
just a driver issue or simply that it will _never_ be compatible is
another matter.

The Sweetspot has no on-board MPEG2 encoding - after all it is mainly aimed
at feeding dScaler type installations (where extra encoding is the last
thing you'd want!) - but I think this means that unless someone can do
something fiendish in software (which would require a lot of CPU effort) to
implement real-time MPEG2 compression of the Sweetspot's output - it isn't
going to be MCE compatible any time soon. Pity really.

Steve

"Champ" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:30:11 -0000, "Tiny Tim"
wrote:

[snip]

Hauppauge PVR-350 - except I've just realised this doesn't support MCE
(or vice versa). Hardware support for MCE is a pain I could do
without right now.

Have a look at www.shspvr.com - they have MCE compatible drivers for most of
the Win PVR range - I got my PVR USB2 working - and others report that the
250 and 350 are working fine in MCE with the drivers from that site.

As I say - I don't have a 350 - but I believe it is supported by MCE (and
you don't need a specific MCE badged model - though this might be cheaper if
it comes with less software and/or no remote control etc.)


The bit I'm vague about at the moment is all the stuff around
connecting it to the TV. I just want this box to sit with the other
home cinema kit, and not use a separate monitor (what's the longest a
monitor cable can be, anyway?). My TV is a 3 year old Sony Triniton
KV-32FX60D. According to the book of words, it accepts "Normal
audio/video and RGB" on Scart 1, and "Normal audio/video and s-video"
on Scart 2 and 3. So, what feed will I actually take out of the PC,
and what cable will I use? Will I need one of these modded cables with
a couple of capacitors in it? Is the fact that the TV runs at 100 Hz
a factor too?

You can feed your TV via a TV output from a video card - which will be
s-video or composite and scaled. This is the easiest solution (especially
if the Shuttle has on-board TV out support). The quality won't be as good
as the RGB feed from a set top box - but might be perfectly acceptable to
you.

I didn't like mine - so have built a VGA to SCART cable (it only has a 75
Ohm resistor for RGB switching purposes, no capacitors or any other
components) that allows my ATI Radeon card to drive my Sony 28FX20 (pretty
much the 50Hz version of your telly) via the RGB SCART. This is a bit more
involved, and requires some custom video timing stuff using an application
called Powerstrip. However IMHO the quality is streets ahead of the S-video
output of the same video card. It is helpful if you have a second PC when
doing this though - as you can then use an application called VNC to
remotely control your "TV PC" - so that you can still use it when the video
output is unusable! I don't know if on-board Radeon 9100 gfx stuff supports
this - I think it might.

Finally you could buy a VGA to Composite/S-video scan converter box - which
you plug into the VGA output of your PC and which generates a TV-friendly
S-video or composite feed - but these are quite expensive and not great
quality.

Steve

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:19:13 -0000, "Stephen Neal"
wrote:


"Champ" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:30:11 -0000, "Tiny Tim"
wrote:

[snip]

Hauppauge PVR-350 - except I've just realised this doesn't support MCE
(or vice versa). Hardware support for MCE is a pain I could do
without right now.

Have a look at www.shspvr.com - they have MCE compatible drivers for most of
the Win PVR range - I got my PVR USB2 working - and others report that the
250 and 350 are working fine in MCE with the drivers from that site.

Ooh, ta. Noted

The bit I'm vague about at the moment is all the stuff around
connecting it to the TV. I just want this box to sit with the other
home cinema kit, and not use a separate monitor (what's the longest a
monitor cable can be, anyway?). My TV is a 3 year old Sony Triniton
KV-32FX60D. According to the book of words, it accepts "Normal
audio/video and RGB" on Scart 1, and "Normal audio/video and s-video"
on Scart 2 and 3. So, what feed will I actually take out of the PC,
and what cable will I use? Will I need one of these modded cables with
a couple of capacitors in it? Is the fact that the TV runs at 100 Hz
a factor too?

You can feed your TV via a TV output from a video card - which will be
s-video or composite and scaled. This is the easiest solution (especially
if the Shuttle has on-board TV out support).

It does, according to the Shuttle site.

The quality won't be as good
as the RGB feed from a set top box - but might be perfectly acceptable to
you.

Well, I'm aiming to get things working, and then go chasing quality, I
think.

It is helpful if you have a second PC when
doing this though - as you can then use an application called VNC to
remotely control your "TV PC" - so that you can still use it when the video
output is unusable!

yeah, I know about this; I'd probably use Terminal Services (which is
part of WinXP and Win2000 nowadays) to do this.

Thanks very much for the advice.
--
This sig under construction

In ,
Stephen Neal wrote:

"Tony Houghton" wrote in message
. uk...

I don't suppose you know whether MCE can handle displaying interlaced
DVB on an interlaced output?


I'm not sure - I'm pretty certain Im getting 50Hz motion (not 25Hz flicker
vision) - the tickers on the ITV News Channel and Sky, as well as rolling
credits - look fluid rather than jerku, and there is no double imaging. This
could of-course be 50Hz interlaced DVB up converted to 50Hz progressive in
the card and then downconverted to 50Hz interlaced again for output. I will
fiddle with the nVidia decoder settings to see what happens if I turn all
the de-interlacing off (or can force weave or film mode - which should mean
all lines remain un-processed I think)

I'm a bit confused, I thought you were using an ATI card with RGB. With
S-Video, both ATI and NVidia have hardware scaling, so I suppose that
would deinterlace and reinterlace as well. If you've got a card with
onboard MPEG decoder that works with RGB and interlacing that's ideal.
I don't think Linux supports MPEG decoding on ATI or NVidia cards, but
it has access to some acceleration functions for video.

Currently I use a DXR3 in Linux. Either it syncs the interlacing or it
deinterlaces and reinterlaces, I just know it's the best thing I've
tried so far. I can play DivX on it too by getting the video player to
apply an MPEG1 conversion filter. Can you do that sort of thing on
Windows? Ie as far as Linux is concerned I've got some things that
output MPEG and a device that accepts MPEG, so I can just feed one to
the other as I please, whereas in Windows you seem to be stuck with
using the DXR3's own DVD player and showing the output from the
Hauppauge Nova-T in a window, never the twain shall meet.

The DXR3 does have a tendency to lose A/V sync though, so I've bought a
Matrox Marvel from eBay for 99p (+ VAT). I don't know when I'll get it,
because I'm trying to arrange for a friend who lives near the seller to
pick it up to avoid the rip off £10 + VAT postage and having to post a
cheque ;-). The reason I'm trying that is I've recently heard Matrox are
the only cards that can provide interrupts to sync interlacing, and they
have very good Linux support. They can do this syncing in Windows too,
but I think it may need a specific application. TV out on Linux is
tricky with them though and I may have to find a patch to get the
interlacing trick working. And it's a G200, and Linux needs a G400 or
better for TV out, at least with the driver I have in mind. Except
apparently if you upgrade the card's BIOS, it's compatible with a G400!

What are film, weave and progressive mode? All I knew about was
interlaced and non-interlaced.

--
The address in the Reply-To is genuine and should not be edited.
See http://www.realh.co.uk/contact.html for more reliable contact addresses.

"Tony Houghton" wrote in message
. uk...
In ,
Stephen Neal wrote:

"Tony Houghton" wrote in message
. uk...

I don't suppose you know whether MCE can handle displaying interlaced
DVB on an interlaced output?


I'm not sure - I'm pretty certain Im getting 50Hz motion (not 25Hz
flicker
vision) - the tickers on the ITV News Channel and Sky, as well as rolling
credits - look fluid rather than jerku, and there is no double imaging.
This
could of-course be 50Hz interlaced DVB up converted to 50Hz progressive
in
the card and then downconverted to 50Hz interlaced again for output. I
will
fiddle with the nVidia decoder settings to see what happens if I turn all
the de-interlacing off (or can force weave or film mode - which should
mean
all lines remain un-processed I think)

I'm a bit confused, I thought you were using an ATI card with RGB.

Yes - I am.

What I don't know is how the ATI generates the interlaced RGB output - it
might not be as simple as it first seems. (I'm coming at this from a
broadcast engineering point of view - where some high-end post production
gear has to de-interlace and re-interlace to do high-end picture
processing - like sub-sample level re-sizing and moving of live video)

My guess is that the following is happening :

1. 50Hz interlaced MPEG2 video is received by the DVB card and squirted into
Windows Media Center.
2. Windows Media Center squirts this into the installed MPEG2 decoder - in
my case nVidia's DVD stuff.
3. The nVidia MPEG2 decoder decodes the MPEG2 data, de-interlaces it (as
configured in the properties) and in association with my Radeon card it
produces a 50Hz progressive feed, which is rendered to the ATI video card's
frame store at 50Hz.

4. The ATI video output stage then clocks this out to the video DACs - but
as it is configured for interlaced display it does it by scanning out every
other line in each consecutive 50Hz field. In other words there is no
re-interlacing filter and half the lines from each 50Hz frame aren't used -
just a straight odd lines in field one, even lines in field two kind of
thing.

It may be that it actually does a decent de-interlace and renders a 25Hz
progressive feed - but I'm pretty certain I'm getting some 50Hz motion.

Fiddling with the nVidia MPEG2 properties I am certainly able to get some
horrid effects - but it doesn't allow basic Force Weave, Force Bob as I
understand it (and AIUI a Force Weave - if things are all going correctly -
should either give me perfect fluid motion or horrid incorrect field
dominance judder - if each consecutive Windows display line is correctly
going into alternate fields)

With
S-Video, both ATI and NVidia have hardware scaling, so I suppose that
would deinterlace and reinterlace as well.

Yep - as far as the PC is concerned it is running normally, feeding a
progressive VGA display, so all the MPEG2 decoding is as if it is for a
progressive display (though some TV outs require the VGA out to run at the
same frame rate as the TV out field rate. nVidia don't seem to - ATI do.)
The TV out gubbins handles the conversion to interlaced output - and usually
includes vertical filtering to reduce interline "twitter" (where vertical
detail flickers at half the field rate) - as well as re-scaling and possibly
field/frame rate conversion.

If you've got a card with
onboard MPEG decoder that works with RGB and interlacing that's ideal.

Yep - I have - the XCard (which is like the DXR 3 I think) - but it isn't
supported by Windows Media Center.

Whilst the Radeon has on board MPEG decoding assistance, and RGB output, it
still squirts the video around Windows using DirectX kind of stuff I
think... Why is nothing ever simple?

I don't think Linux supports MPEG decoding on ATI or NVidia cards, but
it has access to some acceleration functions for video.

Currently I use a DXR3 in Linux. Either it syncs the interlacing or it
deinterlaces and reinterlaces, I just know it's the best thing I've
tried so far.

Isn't the DXR3 an earlier incarnation of the XCard? In other words it is a
hardware MPEG2 decoder - it just outputs composite, S-video (and I think RGB
with some persuasion) - and doesn't go anywhere near any de- or
re-interlacing - it just converts the MPEG2 interlaced video as normal TV
resolution interlaced video. (In pretty much the same way as a standard DVD
player or TV set top box would - not a progressive format in sight)

The XCard also has the ability to hardware de-interlace and re-scale to VGA
and HDTV resolutions - not sure if the Creative card does this - but this is
unrelated to the video output - which is effectively clean and has no nasty
de- / re- interlacing processes.

I can play DivX on it too by getting the video player to
apply an MPEG1 conversion filter. Can you do that sort of thing on
Windows?

The XCard supports some flavours of MPEG4/Divx in hardware - and also
supports PC conversion in realtime in software if it doesn't like the
flavour for hardware decoding. This worked OK - but because it is a bit
niche the software isn't great. There was some DVB support - and the
quality was fantastic - but the EPG integration, support for a decent user
interface etc. was a bit lacking.

Ie as far as Linux is concerned I've got some things that
output MPEG and a device that accepts MPEG, so I can just feed one to
the other as I please, whereas in Windows you seem to be stuck with
using the DXR3's own DVD player and showing the output from the
Hauppauge Nova-T in a window, never the twain shall meet.


Well the Nova-T was compatible with the XCard - and the quality was, as I
said, great. However even using TVEdia - a 3rd party application that worked
nicely - the EPG and stuff was still not up to scratch. I wasn't really
using it that much as a result. I suspect MCE 2005 will be used a lot more.

The DXR3 does have a tendency to lose A/V sync though, so I've bought a
Matrox Marvel from eBay for 99p (+ VAT). I don't know when I'll get it,
because I'm trying to arrange for a friend who lives near the seller to
pick it up to avoid the rip off £10 + VAT postage and having to post a
cheque ;-). The reason I'm trying that is I've recently heard Matrox are
the only cards that can provide interrupts to sync interlacing, and they
have very good Linux support. They can do this syncing in Windows too,
but I think it may need a specific application. TV out on Linux is
tricky with them though and I may have to find a patch to get the
interlacing trick working. And it's a G200, and Linux needs a G400 or
better for TV out, at least with the driver I have in mind. Except
apparently if you upgrade the card's BIOS, it's compatible with a G400!

What are film, weave and progressive mode? All I knew about was
interlaced and non-interlaced.

Progressive is where every line in a frame is displayed during every screen
refresh, it is the opposite of interlaced, where only alternate lines from a
frame are displayed in each screen refresh. This doesn't mean that you have
to wait for two screen refresh periods before changing the content of the
frame though - just that you won't see all the lines from all the frames if
you do!

Weave is where you show both fields from an interlaced frame simultaneously
in a progressive frame (I think). It is great if there is no motion between
the fields (as is the case for 25Hz film or 25Hz progressive video) - but if
there is motion between fields (as is the case with 50Hz interlaced video
camera sourced material) you get the horrid "combing" effect where you see
the two fields split.

Steve

"-= a q u a b u b b l e =-" wrote in
message ...
Tiny Tim wrote:
- 250GB SATA HDD (haven't chosen model - any suggestions?)

Any reason for going SATA? At this point in time, there is no benefit to
SATA, especially if all you're doing is HTPC: the HDD activity is not too
intensive.

Makes running cable a lot easier which can be an important consideration in
a small box or if in my case you have six 250GB hard drives. My Silverstone
TJ-06 was a real mess with IDE cables for six drives. Sata really cleaned
that up plus when you hit the next upgrade cycle you won't have to convert
to sata. I actually lucked out and made a little bit of profit selling my
IDE drives when I converted to sata.





- 2*256MB PC3200 DDR400 ram (any reason not to simply get budget
Crucial/generic memory?)

I'd be tempted to go up to 1GB here. No reason not to get budget RAM: high
performance is not the issue with XP MCE, but the more memory the better.
With a HTPC, you don't want pauses as the OS swaps out to disk.


Agreed and you can do that in two steps buy one 512mb now and one later

- Hauppauge PVR-150-MCE TV card (to record from Sky satellite set top
box - no UHF TV required)

Is this available in the UK yet? Also consider the Black Gold DVB-T or
Nebula cards.

- nVidia FX5200 128MB DVI video card (no brand chosen but anything
cheapish so long as it keeps MCE 2005 happy)

I would avoid being cheap in the video card department. Check around in the
HTPC forums and see which cards have the best TV out. Not every Tv-out chip
is the same. If you can find a store with a goood return policy then you
cab try it before committing to it.



I'd go for an ATI 9600 non-pro 128MB. It has no fan and you can use the
VGA-out to feed your RGB-enabled SCART on your telly. Alternatively,
consider passively cooled versions of the 9600Pro or 9800Pro. Although
another poster recommended the Matrox card, which does have excellent
TV-out, MCE2005 requires a VMR9 capable card (i.e. DirectX9), which the
Matrox isn't.

In ,
Stephen Neal wrote:

"Tony Houghton" wrote in message

I'm a bit confused, I thought you were using an ATI card with RGB.

Yes - I am.

What I don't know is how the ATI generates the interlaced RGB output - it
might not be as simple as it first seems. (I'm coming at this from a
broadcast engineering point of view - where some high-end post production
gear has to de-interlace and re-interlace to do high-end picture
processing - like sub-sample level re-sizing and moving of live video)

My guess is that the following is happening :

1. 50Hz interlaced MPEG2 video is received by the DVB card and squirted into
Windows Media Center.
2. Windows Media Center squirts this into the installed MPEG2 decoder - in
my case nVidia's DVD stuff.

Oh right, the NVidia bit is just a software MPEG decoder which is
compatible with ATI cards too?

3. The nVidia MPEG2 decoder decodes the MPEG2 data, de-interlaces it (as
configured in the properties) and in association with my Radeon card it
produces a 50Hz progressive feed, which is rendered to the ATI video card's
frame store at 50Hz.

Is that why deinterlacing filters take a lot of processing power,
because they're producing a 50Hz progressive stream and have to do some
fancy interpolation because they're effectively doubling the amount of
data?

4. The ATI video output stage then clocks this out to the video DACs - but
as it is configured for interlaced display it does it by scanning out every
other line in each consecutive 50Hz field. In other words there is no
re-interlacing filter and half the lines from each 50Hz frame aren't used -
just a straight odd lines in field one, even lines in field two kind of
thing.

I've just been thinking about why the interlacing should go wrong if
there's no synchronisation or processing filter. I guess the interlaced
display must generate vertical blank interrupts at 50Hz, so the player
software has no way of knowing whether the output is currently odd or
even fields. With 25Hz interrupts all it would have to do is paste the
input fields together into a 25Hz progressive feed, synchronised to the
25Hz interrupts, then the output circuitry would automatically output
the fields in the correct order. I suppose it would have to add a 1/25s
delay to the sound too, but that's not a problem.

It may be that it actually does a decent de-interlace and renders a 25Hz
progressive feed - but I'm pretty certain I'm getting some 50Hz motion.

Fiddling with the nVidia MPEG2 properties I am certainly able to get some
horrid effects - but it doesn't allow basic Force Weave, Force Bob as I
understand it (and AIUI a Force Weave - if things are all going correctly -
should either give me perfect fluid motion or horrid incorrect field
dominance judder - if each consecutive Windows display line is correctly
going into alternate fields)

There's another term I missed. Bob?

Isn't the DXR3 an earlier incarnation of the XCard? In other words it is a
hardware MPEG2 decoder - it just outputs composite, S-video (and I think RGB
with some persuasion) - and doesn't go anywhere near any de- or
re-interlacing - it just converts the MPEG2 interlaced video as normal TV
resolution interlaced video. (In pretty much the same way as a standard DVD
player or TV set top box would - not a progressive format in sight)

I don't know what its relationship is with the XCard. It's got a VGA
socket which I haven't used. I think it's just so that you can pass your
normal video card's output through it (with signal degradation - anyone
remember the Voodoo 1 & 2 passthroughs?) so that you can view the video
in a window with hardware overlay.

--
The address in the Reply-To is genuine and should not be edited.
See http://www.realh.co.uk/contact.html for more reliable contact addresses.

Tony Houghton wrote:
In ,
Stephen Neal wrote:

"Tony Houghton" wrote in message
[snip]
My guess is that the following is happening :

1. 50Hz interlaced MPEG2 video is received by the DVB card and
squirted into Windows Media Center.
2. Windows Media Center squirts this into the installed MPEG2
decoder - in my case nVidia's DVD stuff.

Oh right, the NVidia bit is just a software MPEG decoder which is
compatible with ATI cards too?

Yep - confusingly nVidia seem to be one of the best suppliers of MCE 2005
compatible MPEG2 decoders. (Believe it or not, MCE 2005 doesn't include
MPEG2 codecs as standard. No wonder it isn't on sale to the general public
via anything but OEM routes)


3. The nVidia MPEG2 decoder decodes the MPEG2 data, de-interlaces it
(as configured in the properties) and in association with my Radeon
card it produces a 50Hz progressive feed, which is rendered to the
ATI video card's frame store at 50Hz.

Is that why deinterlacing filters take a lot of processing power,
because they're producing a 50Hz progressive stream and have to do
some fancy interpolation because they're effectively doubling the
amount of data?

Yep - and the really good ones (as implemented in dScaler) do very processor
intensive stuff to produce the best interpolation.

(Win DVD 6 Platinum includes something called Trimension - which is I think
based on the Philips Natural Motion 100Hz TV algorithm - which actually
interpolates extra information on FILM sourced stuff - interpolating frames
that weren't there. Converting 25fps to 50fps with full fluid "interpolated"
motion - making film DVDs look like video. Very unnerving it is too!)


4. The ATI video output stage then clocks this out to the video DACs
- but as it is configured for interlaced display it does it by
scanning out every other line in each consecutive 50Hz field. In
other words there is no re-interlacing filter and half the lines
from each 50Hz frame aren't used - just a straight odd lines in
field one, even lines in field two kind of thing.

I've just been thinking about why the interlacing should go wrong if
there's no synchronisation or processing filter. I guess the
interlaced display must generate vertical blank interrupts at 50Hz,
so the player software has no way of knowing whether the output is
currently odd or even fields. With 25Hz interrupts all it would have
to do is paste the input fields together into a 25Hz progressive
feed, synchronised to the 25Hz interrupts, then the output circuitry
would automatically output the fields in the correct order. I suppose
it would have to add a 1/25s delay to the sound too, but that's not a
problem.

I guess so. From memory the field dominance in NTSC and PAL is different as
well.

You are right - I think - that if all the 50Hz interlaced video is
effectively treated as 25Hz progressive (with no scaling) all the way
through the PC until it is output interlaced - the interlaced video will
survive as interlaced video at 50Hz. (The reverse is also true and used when
using interlaced 50Hz broadcast kit to process 25Hz progressive video stuff)


It may be that it actually does a decent de-interlace and renders a
25Hz progressive feed - but I'm pretty certain I'm getting some 50Hz
motion.

Fiddling with the nVidia MPEG2 properties I am certainly able to get
some horrid effects - but it doesn't allow basic Force Weave, Force
Bob as I understand it (and AIUI a Force Weave - if things are all
going correctly - should either give me perfect fluid motion or
horrid incorrect field dominance judder - if each consecutive
Windows display line is correctly going into alternate fields)

There's another term I missed. Bob?

From memory Weave is where the two fields are merged, so a 25Hz progressive
frame is created by just adding the odd and even lines of both 50Hz fields,
Bob is where one field is ditched and the 25Hz frame is created by
replicating just one of the two 50Hz fields. Weave works well for static
stuff - and maximised the vertical resolution (and also works for moving
stuff with no intra-frame movement between fields, or slow movement). Bob
works where there is fast movement between fields - but the vertical
resolution drops to half that of the frame resolution.


Isn't the DXR3 an earlier incarnation of the XCard? In other words
it is a hardware MPEG2 decoder - it just outputs composite, S-video
(and I think RGB with some persuasion) - and doesn't go anywhere
near any de- or re-interlacing - it just converts the MPEG2
interlaced video as normal TV resolution interlaced video. (In
pretty much the same way as a standard DVD player or TV set top box
would - not a progressive format in sight)

I don't know what its relationship is with the XCard. It's got a VGA
socket which I haven't used. I think it's just so that you can pass
your normal video card's output through it (with signal degradation -
anyone remember the Voodoo 1 & 2 passthroughs?) so that you can view
the video in a window with hardware overlay.

Yep - the DXR3 is I think a close relative of the Sigma Hollywood Plus card
(itself a predecessor to the XCard). There is no issue of de- and re-
interlacing on the standard video outputs as it is pumping out standard
interlaced video directly from the MPEG2 hardware decoder. Only the VGA
stuff is de-interlaced.

Steve

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:35:07 +0000 (UTC), Tony Houghton
wrote:

Ah, so that's why the graphics card requirements are so high (but why no
R9500/9600)?

ATI claims to support MCE 2005 with the 9550 & 9600 cards.
http://www.ati.com/buy/promotions/mcesolutions/

--
Nigel Barker
Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:12:43 GMT, "-= a q u a b u b b l e =-"
wrote:

Sorry yes, I misread your original post about this... if you want the very
best input quality, have you considered the Sweetspot card, which has RGB
input?

http://www.pluggedin.tv/sweetspot/

It's not on the MCE2005 HCL yet, but I'm not aware of any problems with it.

Apart from the problem that it will not work with MCE which requires a card
capable of DX9 preferably in hardware. The Sweetspot looks like a great solution
for high quality video it just is not suitable for MCE.

--
Nigel Barker
Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:55:27 -0700, "Leadfoot" wrote:

I would avoid being cheap in the video card department. Check around in the
HTPC forums and see which cards have the best TV out. Not every Tv-out chip
is the same. If you can find a store with a goood return policy then you
cab try it before committing to it.

I don't believe that there any cards on the MCE HCL that have good TV-out.
Average or adequate would be a better description.

--
Nigel Barker
Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur

Nigel Barker wrote:
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:55:27 -0700, "Leadfoot"
wrote:

I would avoid being cheap in the video card department. Check
around in the HTPC forums and see which cards have the best TV out.
Not every Tv-out chip is the same. If you can find a store with a
goood return policy then you cab try it before committing to it.

I don't believe that there any cards on the MCE HCL that have good
TV-out. Average or adequate would be a better description.

Yep - this seems to be my experience. I am quite surprised that such
expensive and high quality video cards have such low quality TV outputs -
especially when it is possible to get a decent quality output using a
VGA-RGB SCART cable, a suitable video card and Powerstrip. (I guess this
is why Powerstrip is so popular in the US, where it can be used to drive
HDTVs via a VGA-Component converter - or in some cases the video cards
themselves can switch to component output)

I am amazed at the difference in quality that I have got from Windows MCE
since I switched from S-video TV-out to a VGA-SCART RGB solution and
Powerstrip!

Steve