Home cinema - small speaker HC recommendations

you're talking crap. If a REL Storm is bottoming out at realistic
listening
levels then you have it set up wrong, or there's something seriously wrong
with either your ears or your system. Reference levels mean nothing in a
domestic environment.

I said nearly bottoming (and sounding bad), not actually bottoming out and
clacking- at my normal listening level for action films. There's a
difference. I take it you can notice when excessive cone movement is
starting to effect SQ? And I'm not talking reference- I wouldn't expect the
Rel to operate at reference (115 to 125dB peaks) , I'm talking at my normal
listening level (way below)- I have given you the levels I listen to, and to
what I've calibrated to. That shows what it's set to..Strange you say "then
you have it set up wrong" when I've given you the levels, so how on earth
can you say I've got it set up wrong? DUH! Not paying attention? as you
think channel level calibration is for "dorks"

I guess since you've just bought the Storm you don't want people to put down
a item you've just bought (for HT), and I've had one for a while so know
it's limitations for HT.

I had to use the MC-1 peak limitor to protect the woofer for heavy
action films. Don't believe me? Try the identical settings as me (sub
-3dB below others) then try again... oops you can't.

How do you know I can't? I'm constantly amazed at how you seem to know
just
exactly what it is other people have, can do or cannot. Psychic are you?
Or
physic (sic) to quote you.

Because doofus you don't have a sound pressure meter...your ears might be
good to get accurate channel adjustment-that's fine..but a SPL meter will
verify that (we) are listening to the systems at the same level, and both at
the same SPL from each speaker, and work out at what level the Storm gives
up. Your Rel might sound good at your
level...but not at mine. My room is 4m x 4m.. pretty small (so would think
Storm be sufficient) When you output the test tone do you know it's 85dB? NO
YOU DON'T. I don't know your listening volume..perhaps your normal listening
volume is much lower than mine...therefore you
cannot understand why I feel the Rel is unsuitable for heavy action movies
in HT.

I suggest buying a SPL meter, calibrating to 85dB with Avia (82dB on sub)-
same as my settings.
Setting to -20 on master, then try the films I've mentioned. OK subwoofer
channel might be louder than YOUR listening volume (again that's fine) but
least get a idea where I'm coming from, and not just push it to one side.

The Storm can't handle what I listen to on these DVD's (and not that
loud) it can't handle slightly-louder-than normal level.. this is way
below reference.

Like I said, real world, not reference is what matters. Caught up in
figures
again Nath.

Nope. I don't listen to reference, nor do I set to a fixed volume on the
dial (as each movie is different) I just set to whatever I feel like. But
for comparison let's do the same. Figures is the initial xover settings per
channel, channel calibration & distance settings. Course you wouldn't ever
bother to do any of that and just plug it in? lol.

My frame of reference is the dozen or so complete AV systens I've owned
over
the past 17 years or so and my own ears. Don't presume to tell me I have
no
frame of reference you ignorant ****.

And probably not setup properly...you have no frame of reference if you
"guess" the figures on the initial channel adjustment/distance/speaker size-
if you don't even bother going to the setup menus. Sure
you've got your display in correct ratio? DVD player set to bitstream?

Strange a few other people have upgraded from a single Storm/Dual
Storms to a single SVS for HT. I wonder why?

Perhaps like you they've fallen for all the SVS hype?

Perhaps. I guess some might have...maybe there is alot of hype (but for a
good reason) for HT subwoofers- non SVS/HSU owners and other sub manu. do
not like
that, compare to more expensive subs. But there's SVS's Customer Service to
consider too. I'm very happy with mine, compared
to similar priced Rel- far superior sub for HT.

I guess a non SVS owner would see the hundreds (if not thousands) of SVS
threads and **** them off, especially if they have a more expensive
subwoofer, and is put down my SVS owners who also owned them.

Weren't you the one
who claimed that people bough KEF KHT 2005's because everyone else raved
about them?

Yes. But mainly because of magazine reviews IMO. And we all know who falls
for them (the general public) looking for lifestyle systems (Ikea look, bare
wood floors, tiny speakers, Plasma above fireplace)

You can't deny someone looking for "lifestyle" speakers would choose them
over "better & ugly" speakers?

I think the Kef Eggs are good value for money. I wouldn't buy them myself
for a "real" system, just for a posh PC audio system. Don't like it? TOUGH!

How does that make you any different in that you've bought SVS
because everyone else raved about them?

Because my good chappie there are reviews fom people that aren't
connected to magazines and those interested in looks/physical size
compromise. Most people who bought lifestyle systems have
probably never owned a HT system before (just TV speakers)... wheras those
who bought SVS/HSU
subs have owned Rel, Velodyne, Polk, B&W, NHT and other sub manufactuers.
Peoples comments towards cylinder subs are not tailored towards the item
looking "pretty" and "discrete" which is what lifestyle systems are about-
nowt to do with hi-end performance.

How many times have I seen customers look at lifestyle systems- but they
NEVER ask about sound quality.

After all you can't even claim you
listened and were blown away by the sub and had to buy it.

True. It was a risk. Many people from around the world buy Outlaw, SVS, HSU
products direct without hearing them going. Using it I was suprised at the
performance increase over the Rel for HT (and dismayed at Rel's UK "hype").
I guess there are happy and
unhappy customers for internet products (I've read a few who have been
disappointed with Outlaw's av pre-amp)

You bought it
unheard - something only a fool would do.

Then I'm a happy fool :-)

And how many people have bought Plasma's and Kef Eggs direct? LOTS. How many
threads do you see people asking for complete systems? I bet some order
on-line afterwards. At least I admit I've ordered stuff unheard, and put
down gear I've owned- ie B&W 601's have very boomy bass, and horrible
treble.

Define "frame of reference for identical system testing". Explain to me
what
the intrisic value of testing identical systems is and why you believe I
have no frame of reference. As I've explained my frame of reference is
that
I have owned a lot of AV gear and i have ears and I know what I like.
Figures don't mean much to me because I listen *to the music* not the
speakers.

Because we can work how loud we both listen to, and explain my
dissatisication with Rel/HT/Action movies. Someone might want to listen to
LOUD
constantly, in a 6,000ft cu foot room. It's pretty obvious the Storm
wouldn't fill
that sized room. So you would say "then you have it set up wrong, or
there's
something seriously wrong with either your ears or your system"- will be a
daft response. Need a sub with higher output (and speakers & most probably
amp) but without a system settings you couldn't work out squat.

Would saying "hmm I listen to it fairly loud, and the subwoofer isn't that
good" make any sense? Nope. Channel adjustment, volume you listen to (on
dial) and room size would explain why. Understand it yet?

So reference is too loud yes? In that case why do you insist that you
*must*
have a sub that operates at reference?

I don't. I said the (correctly setup) Rel cannot cope with my normal
listening volume in action films. Got through your thick skull yet? Oh yeah
witty remark "You've got it set up wrong" blah blah here's my settings
"85/82" witty remark "That means ****, that's for dorks" etc etc..

As long as the sub performs properly
AT NORMAL LISTENING LEVELS anything else is pretty much irrelevant.

True... but..

Rel- cannot do what I'm asking it to do.
SVS- it can.

Simple enough for ya?

que your remark "you haven't set it up right" sigh..

You've
just proved yourself wrong on every count by admitting that reference has
no
meaning to real world listening.

No you just said that...

" Reference levels mean nothing in a domestic environment."

As Max would say - BUSTED.

Reference is the "supposed to listen to" volume by Dolby - too loud though..
for others it's used to COMPARE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE USE THEIR SYSTEM AT.

I don't listen to it at reference stupid. I've done the speaker adjustment-
you have not. I listen to it at my levels (-30 to 20) WHICH IS RELEVANT,
BECAUSE I LISTEN TO -20dB- god you are thick!!! And the subwoofer is
incapable of sounding clean without any distortion AT -20 BELOW REFERENCE.
DO THE SAME!!!

Why can't you accept that some people might not like the SVS?

I can. All I can say is the SVS is far superior to the Rel for HT. It goes
lower, sounds cleaner, with no distortion, with lots of reserve headroom,
with no port noise (1 or 2
plugged), with no driver flapping, and goes much louder, by several people's
opinons who've heard my system with Rel, SVS and the crappy Yamaha sub (and
of course me). Can
you accept that?

You insist
that the setup must be worng

Did I say "must be wrong" NOPE. I said "Perhaps"

Totally different. Trying to put words into my mouth? I notice you're trying
to do the same thing as Max when loosing the argument- change words around.

because you can't bear the thought that you've
dropeed £700 on a sub unhead that might not be the best thing out there.

At £700? Very much doubt it (for HT) Unless you can recommend others in that
price range?
Rel Storm- not a chance. Left trailing. Even dual Storms
Velodyne CHT-15. Others have sold the CHT-15 to move to SVS
My sub outperforms a £2100 M&K. THIS IS COMING FROM A M&K DEALER!

Not the very best subwoofer? Undoubtly! DD-18, SVS PB2+/Ultra, SVS B4,
Contrabass, VMPS far
superior (according to other people) Do I dismiss their opinon's? Nope.

The
system WAS set up correctly, the sub WAS working correctly, I didn't like
it - live with it.

I can, thank you very much. You said"very impressive" for HT. I agree.

I could give you the information but it is meaningless.

No it's not. If you run your sub -15dB below all other channels that is
probably why you're not running into problems.

You cannot tell how
something sounds from figures Nathan

Well duh obviously.

if you don't understand that then you
have simply no understanding of hifi or audio in general.

I do understand. The Rel is a very good sounding subwoofer..upto a point
(for my HT). By
the sound SPL expectiations of it it's below yours, but above mine. That's
fine. Three other
people have commented the SVS sounds far better for HT than the Rel. Have
they looked at the THD figures for the SVS and assumed it sounds better
because of it? Nope. Afterwards I did, and explained it (probably bored them
a bit ;-) but one was interested in it as he didn't realize M&K have
something like 30-40% THD down low, the bloke confirmed it sounds better
than the M&K
that sells for 3x price.

I simply pointed out that you had
typed that you don't know why certain tunings of your sub should be done a
particular way. I certainly don't know them either - the difference is I'm
not trying to bull**** people or score points by denigrating their kit.

The "bull****" of me recommending not to do this or that with the SVS
subwoofer is told by Tom V. Take it up with him if you want. Since he knows
more about his own products than
you or I, I'll listen to his advice..and not do something else because it
might sound different (as it could be disastrous to the driver)

What's not normal about a diesel engine? Anyway you admit that you don't
know the in depth technicalities yet you still trhow numbers around
without
actually understaning them. Consistency again Nath, ever your bugbear.

You don't need to understand how a nuclear bombs works to say "nuclear bombs
kill people"

I don't know how to build amps, but I know high THD is bad and most
definetly effect SQ ...pretty obvious
really (and no I don't purchase amps if one has 0.05% THD compared to
0.06%THD) - although I would most defiently ignore one if it had 80% THD at
50% output. So what's wrong with that?

Expect me to know everything on a particular subject before you "allow" me
post to a reply on a subject?
ROFLAMO.

Superior according to who? According to you and a few other SVS owners.
Hardly an unbiased focus group.

One a Rel owner. Me (also Rel owner). M&K /Rel dealer. A couple of mates.

By your reasoning- if you said your Rel Storm is superior to that in the Kef
Eggs sub (which you owned?) then any comments towards the Storm is
biased.because you own it..duh! If that was true you would only listen to
newbie's with their first subwoofer..

I don't have any prrof you've set your
system up right

LOL!!!!! I've given you the settings of the MC-1 (speaker size) SPL channel
adjustment, volume I listen to, size of my room (and know what kit I own),
titles that give the Rel problems, those that don't. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?
BLOOD?

I don't have any proof YOU'VE set it up right.

that someone else may have a different listening experience with the same
kit - this means you have no objectivity.

Yes I can. Didn't I say "I can understand why you dislike it for music"

why would anyone do that? again stating the obvious as if it makes you
some
paragon of HT. You really are an immature and ill educated fool.

Because some people need to be told the obvious.

And because by your logic if they set it up like that and it sounds OK then
it
must be OK (must be deaf to not hear the drivers distorting)..despite being
on the verge of blowing it up. Bose recommends plugging all to the bass
module.

So now you ARE letting others determine your settings for you.

Only by the subwoofer manu. recommendations. The same is said by HTM owners.

Why not try
it and see what YOU think instead of constantly trying to keep in with the
HTM intelligentsia?

I did. Plugged one port, 16hz. Two ports, 12hz.

Again no ability to think for yourself and make
decisions based on your own listening.

See above.

I'm sure there are dozens
of SVS owners who would set up their subs differntly from you because
*they
like how it sounds*.

No doubt. I leave mine in stock...others will port plug it and adjust SS
filter (according to instructions)

Why would I follow a bunch of threads from evangelists? As to 'totally
incorrect' - well that's subjective isn't it. If the kit CAN be set to a
particular setting then surely there is a reason for it? Or perhaps SVS
are actually poorly desinged and incoporate lots of settings that are
useless
the user? I'm pretty certain the latter isn't true so I'm pretty sure now
that you are just talking crap again.

They offer a wide variety of customization, by SVS's recommendation,
adjusting ports then adjusting SS filter is the most wisest thing to do.
Tom said mis-adjusting it is OK as long as you don't exceed a certain level.
I wouldn't but I bet some would, and it would be safer to put it in
"correct" settings
Have you read the info on the site? Contacted Tom concerning "incorrect"
port/filter settings?

So where are the numbers then? How many servicemen do you know? ?How many
Police officers? Given your fondness for numbers they seem conspicuously
absent all of a sudden.

100% of them.

So your grandfather and father are complete *******? You said it Nath not
me. I guess that goes some way to explaining you - like father like son.

I haven't joined the services.

You
wouldn't get in to the military anyway as you would fail basic logic and
comprehension tests, not to mention your somewhat shaky grasp of the
English language.

Not from the idiots I've seen in the Army.

Like I said you wouldn't have got in.

Great. I'll let you run off and I'll stay in England :-)

Do you know what Executive Power is? Do you know just how much policy
control the average squaddie has?

None.

Politicians start wars, soldiers just
fight them.

And you tell me I state the obvious? LOL

I agree with you on the politics, but your complete lack of understanding,
and blaming of ordinary servicemen for the invasion, illustrates an
ignorance beyond anyhting you've shown before - including your Mac lies.

I'm not blaming the servicemen for starting wars you tool. Jesus I know it's
the governments, religion/churches and politicians (and recently
corporations that have a sway over congress) that start wars and not the
grunt, unless the grunt causes a international situation like pressing the
big red button
;-)

I blame what being in the armed service's do to normal sociable people..
they come out different (not talking if they're killed someone in line of
duty, post tramatic stress etc) Basically become "bossy" to civilians,
friends and relatives, and dislike it when a "civvy" stands up to them.

What, port tuning figures and sub settings? Is your life so ****ing boring
that these things actually mean something to you?

Only to you, as you don't have a clue. I haven't touched subwoofer settings
since I settled with stock tune. That say anything to you?

The settings were within
normal parameters, tuned to how my friend likes the sound - it was ME who
didn't like the SVS with music. Just because someone doesn't like an SVS
sub
doesn't automatically mean the settings were wrong

Again I didn't say "wrong" I say "possible"

there's a little more
to life than your ****ing SVS

Not for Tom :-)

I was never banned - and my argument to those on AVForums was valid, I've

You were going to be from your 'tute.

YOU got banned, primarily because you're too immature to post to a
moderated forum.

I got banned after quite a few posts. And I had "Bring back Nathan" threads.
I wonder if they'll do the same for you? With your 'Self-righteous *******"
way you'll last less than 100 posts.

Because I have a SOH.. unlike the Admin. Do you know the actual last thread
that I posted to? (and the reason I got banned for)

How does it go when you're losing Nath ? "Mods please
close" - pathetic.

That was about the Intel/AMD? That was my OPINION- I have used AMD & Intel
in the past...never touch AMD again. Oh there's a "expert" saying AMD are
perfectly stable, you just need updated drivers, pray to the AMD god so it
doesn't crash etc. Been there done
that. Still BSOD, reboots in windows, games, word.. Come back and report
that and they act like you. SELF RICHETOUS *******.

And as for the Mac-I won't buy one. Overpriced junk. And YES I HAVE USED
THEM FOR A LITTLE WHILE.

You are loosing this arguement regarding the Rel for HT- I have given out
info about my listening habits and settings. You have not, and are basically
trying to disprove my opinon that the Rel is unsuitable for HT - because I
MUST have something wrong. You are pathetic.

So far on UMD and here I've named several dozen bands and way more films
over the years that I've listened to.

Good for you.

Kinda rules out your 10 CD
assumption - plus I've mentioned in this thread that I have over 1500 CDs.
Just because you've never heard of 90% of them neither makes me better
than
you, nor does it mean I have better taste - but until you can actualy make
a subjective critique of music you'll forever look like a kit nerd.

Why should I have to list my "favourite bands/genres" to prove I like
music? I listen to whatever I can...and not ogle at the kit when it's on.

If someone listens to Vengaboys, would you assume they don't know anything
about good quality kit? SELF RIGHTEOUS *******.

What next? Penis size?